Death Penalty – for or against?[W:306]

[Paleocon]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

No problem. I agree you can't really make amends to someone who's been locked up for 20 years but you can give him back something of his life. You can't do anything with a wrongful except tell the guy's widow "sorry."

I accept that we make mistakes in non capital cases and imprison the wrong people - something like 3-5% of the time. I don't like it and think we need to do a much better job but we have no alternative. We have an alternative in capital cases - life with no parole - which I find acceptable.

You can restore a man's honor even posthumously. Every action is both somewhat reversible and somewhat irreversible. The death penalty is more irreversible than imprisoment, but so too imprisonment is more irreversible than probation, which is more irreversible than a warning, etc. You seem to be arbitrarily drawing a cutoff at the death penalty.

That's my point. If I'm not going to support the unjust execution of my child as a price of our criminal justice system how can I support the execution of someone else's?

I wouldn't support the justified execution of one of my relatives either. So this point is naught.

No. Accidental killings are unjust but not in the criminal justice sense. An individual who accidentally kills someone in a hunting accident is is qualitatively different from society purposefully killing someone for the wrong reasons.

There you go again trying to have it both ways. There's "wrong" and then there's wrong. There's "unjust" and then there"s unjust.

Both actions are the same objectively. They're both homicides. They're also similar subjectively, in that they are cases of a person carrying out an action that would be murderous, except for their mistaken apprehension of the situation.

 

[Fishking]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

I mistyped, sorry. I meant that in the real world, no action is ever totally reversible.

By this reasoning, we shouldn't punish anyone.

Would you rather be dead, or wrongfully imprisoned for a while? I'd rather not be dead, if I was the one on the receiving end. When you're alive, there is always hope.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

1.)You're willing to kill the kid, too, in your zealous quest for emotional satisfaction?
2.)That's exactly what would happen more often if we did that.
3.)Dead and unfindable bodies bear no witness in court. If a molester who is not normally prone to be a murderer sees a better chance of getting away with his molestation if the kid is conveniently "iced", he'll probably do it.

1.) Im sorry what kid? What emotional satisfaction?
2.) what would happen?
3.) if thats their choice thats on them I dont base the penalty over what might or could happen thats dumb.

. . .maybe somebody would only do a little bit of terrorism if the crime was lighter . . .maybe they'd only steal a little bit etc etc

Id stand by my view that I would expanded it and would support at least the talks of expending it elsewhere too.

 

[Multicam]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

For first-degree murderers of all types, and even more for rapists, for child molesters, and others who have committed crimes even more heinous than these, I am totally, absolutely 100 percent in favor of the death penalty. For those of you who want lower tax rates, let me point out that the tax dollars of innocent citizens contribute to the feeding, comfort and guarding of thousands of murderers, rapists, and other severe criminals. Give them the death penalty, and you stop having to feed and clothe and guard them. Stop having to feed and clothe them, and tax rates wouldn't need to be so high.

Bear in mind though, I don't advocate the death penalty because it will lower taxes; that's just a side benefit. I advocate it because I think it's what many criminals deserve. Take a criminal who takes someone else's life, or permanently scars someone else's life through rape and molestation. How can you tell me they don't deserve to pay for those wrecked lives with their own life? I fail to see a good explanation why their paying in kind is wrong.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Would you rather be dead, or wrongfully imprisoned for a while? I'd rather not be dead, if I was the one on the receiving end. When you're alive, there is always hope.

Would you rather be imprisoned, or wrongfully on probation for a while? Would you rather be on probation, or wrongfully given a warning? Etc.

This line of reasoning could be used to abolish all punishment.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Moderator's Warning:

Agent J and abortion are not what this discussion is about. Stick to the topic or you can be removed from the topic. And personal comments are definitely NOT sticking to the topic. Agent J is on record supporting the execution of children conceived in rape.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

He does speak nonsense, but first degree murder should be a capital offense.

That may be your position but I disagree, there is no justification (legal or otherwise) for the death penalty, it leads to injustice (because usually it is applied unfairly), unjust deaths (when innocent people get killed) and are way too costly. The only reason is vengeance/revenge and that is not the basis of justice and the legal system IMHO. The punishment should be the imprisonment and not death.

 

[Peter King]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

What a load of crap! With the centuries of warfare and killing, the country that put a man on the moon can't figure out how to kill a guy in 3 seconds or less?

Black gangbangers in Chicago do it every day, all day long. Hire them as consultants, for pete's sake!

No, a load of reality, you might want to try that for a change. You do know that several states have already had to change their death penalty laws with the drug shortage in mind? Utah needed to add the firing squad to their laws just in case the drugs ran out. Oklahoma was the first to approve nitrogen gas. Tennessee passed a law to allow the use of the electric chair due to the drugs shortage.

You cannot just change death penalty methods if it is not allowed by the state law.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

For first-degree murderers of all types, and even more for rapists, for child molesters, and others who have committed crimes even more heinous than these, I am totally, absolutely 100 percent in favor of the death penalty. For those of you who want lower tax rates, let me point out that the tax dollars of innocent citizens contribute to the feeding, comfort and guarding of thousands of murderers, rapists, and other severe criminals. Give them the death penalty, and you stop having to feed and clothe and guard them. Stop having to feed and clothe them, and tax rates wouldn't need to be so high.

Bear in mind though, I don't advocate the death penalty because it will lower taxes; that's just a side benefit. I advocate it because I think it's what many criminals deserve. Take a criminal who takes someone else's life, or permanently scars someone else's life through rape and molestation. How can you tell me they don't deserve to pay for those wrecked lives with their own life? I fail to see a good explanation why their paying in kind is wrong.

Executing people is actually more expensive than keeping them in prison for life. The cases cost more to litigate, much more to appeal and death penalty inmates cost at least twice as much to house.

 

[radcen]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

1.) Im sorry what kid? What emotional satisfaction?
2.) what would happen?
3.) if thats their choice thats on them I dont base the penalty over what might or could happen thats dumb.

. . .maybe somebody would only do a little bit of terrorism if the crime was lighter . . .maybe they'd only steal a little bit etc etc

Id stand by my view that I would expanded it and would support at least the talks of expending it elsewhere too.

What's dumb is refusing to think things through. But you have made it clear that you are willing to sacrifice kids in order to get your emotional satisfaction by putting to death a molester, so we have nowhere else to go.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

You can restore a man's honor even posthumously. Every action is both somewhat reversible and somewhat irreversible. The death penalty is more irreversible than imprisoment, but so too imprisonment is more irreversible than probation, which is more irreversible than a warning, etc. You seem to be arbitrarily drawing a cutoff at the death penalty.







I wouldn't support the justified execution of one of my relatives either. So this point is naught.



There you go again trying to have it both ways. There's "wrong" and then there's wrong. There's "unjust" and then there"s unjust.

Both actions are the same objectively. They're both homicides. They're also similar subjectively, in that they are cases of a person carrying out an action that would be murderous, except for their mistaken apprehension of the situation.

The line I'm drawing isn't arbitrary. It is drawn at the point where you can no longer undo any aspect of the sentence. Yes you can restore the person's honor but that's a comfort to his family or his. It does nothing for him personally. Even someone unjustly imprisoned for life can do something and fashion some kind of life for himself. Not so with the dead person.

As to my familial point - since you don't support even justified execution of a relative how can you morally support the death penalty at all? If you aren't will to undergo it yourself you have no right to impose it on others. Or would

And I'm not having it both ways. They are different. Firstly any killing of a human by another human is a homicide. Even a self defense killing is a homicide so the fact that both killings in your example are homicides is not relevant since it in no way distinguishes them from any other man on man killing. Secondly people killed in hunting accidents, about 100 a year, are primarily voluntarily participating in the sport and thus willingly putting themselves at risk. The rest are non hunters who are in the woods during hunting season who are presumably also aware of the risks

 

[Fishking]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Would you rather be imprisoned, or wrongfully on probation for a while? Would you rather be on probation, or wrongfully given a warning? Etc.

This line of reasoning could be used to abolish all punishment.

No it isn't because only one of those punishments is permanent.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

The line I'm drawing isn't arbitrary. It is drawn at the point where you can no longer undo any aspect of the sentence. Yes you can restore the person's honor but that's a comfort to his family or his. It does nothing for him personally. Even someone unjustly imprisoned for life can do something and fashion some kind of life for himself. Not so with the dead person.

Restoring a man's honor is a good done to him.

As to my familial point - since you don't support even justified execution of a relative how can you morally support the death penalty at all? If you aren't will to undergo it yourself you have no right to impose it on others. Or would

You've lost me here. I don't base my political positions on what I personally would want.

And I'm not having it both ways. They are different. Firstly any killing of a human by another human is a homicide. Even a self defense killing is a homicide so the fact that both killings in your example are homicides is not relevant since it in no way distinguishes them from any other man on man killing. Secondly people killed in hunting accidents, about 100 a year, are primarily voluntarily participating in the sport and thus willingly putting themselves at risk. The rest are non hunters who are in the woods during hunting season who are presumably also aware of the risks

I'm not sure what relevance that has, unless you're saying that a person taking a risk justifies killing them.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

No it isn't because only one of those punishments is permanent.

Imoeisonment and probation can also be permanent.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

No. Of course we may now have a king who can circumvent our judicial system as well as other checks and balances.

We do seem to be going in that direction.

 

[radcen]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

I don't base my political positions on what I personally would want.

One would think that what you would personally want would also be what you think is good for society overall. The two should be one and the same.

 

[Paleocon]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

One would think that what you would personally want would also be what you think is good for society overall. The two should be one and the same.

This is really dumb. Like, really really dumb.

Do you desire to be imprisoned? Do you support certain people being imprisoned?

Do you like being taxed? Do you you support the existence of taxes?

Etc.

 

[Casca XV]

Death Penalty – for or against?
As we see time and again prisoners have been freed from death row, convictions overturned, 1 person was within 50 Hrs. of being executed

The questions as I see it, how many had the sentence carried out, yet were innocent?
Has racial bias has been proven?
The Death Sentence is overwhelming used in a few jurisdictions. Why?
Is that due to the small percentage of counties having a significant difference in DP crimes?
Do you have a sentence that is selectively used by a few counties, and District Attorneys in the US?
DA’s have withheld evidence in DP trials. And penalties for this are rare as hens teeth.

Executions in the United States | Death Penalty Information Center

Anything created by humans will never be perfect. But the average person has 10 times better chance of winning a million dollar lotto than being wrongfully convicted of a crime.

 

[Gaius46]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Restoring a man's honor is a good done to him.



You've lost me here. I don't base my political positions on what I personally would want.



I'm not sure what relevance that has, unless you're saying that a person taking a risk justifies killing them.

I disagree. Good cannot be done to dead person. Perhaps to their memory/legacy etc but not to them.

My second point is that I cannot condone capital punishment unless I'm willing to allow that I or my family be subjected to it even if I or they are innocent. Since I cannot condone it for myself I cannot condone it for anyone. If I personally am not willing to take a risk I cannot demand that someone take it. That morality informs my political position with respect to the death penalty.

On my last I'm saying that because people willingly accept the risk of death in an activity they participate it that activity cannot be compared to an innocent being executed. Neither killing is justified but the situations are not comparable either.

 

[eohrnberger]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

For first-degree murderers of all types, and even more for rapists, for child molesters, and others who have committed crimes even more heinous than these, I am totally, absolutely 100 percent in favor of the death penalty. For those of you who want lower tax rates, let me point out that the tax dollars of innocent citizens contribute to the feeding, comfort and guarding of thousands of murderers, rapists, and other severe criminals. Give them the death penalty, and you stop having to feed and clothe and guard them. Stop having to feed and clothe them, and tax rates wouldn't need to be so high.

Bear in mind though, I don't advocate the death penalty because it will lower taxes; that's just a side benefit. I advocate it because I think it's what many criminals deserve. Take a criminal who takes someone else's life, or permanently scars someone else's life through rape and molestation. How can you tell me they don't deserve to pay for those wrecked lives with their own life? I fail to see a good explanation why their paying in kind is wrong.

What's the tipping point? When is it less expensive to prosecute and execute a heinous criminal than it is to house, feed and guard him for the rest of his life?

How many years of incarceration does it cost to complete all the legal proceedings prior to a criminal's execution?

I have to agree that there are heinous crimes or people who are so evil that you actually want to remove them from society on the most permanent basis possible.

 

[radcen]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

This is really dumb. Like, really really dumb.

Do you desire to be imprisoned? Do you support certain people being imprisoned?

Do you like being taxed? Do you you support the existence of taxes?

Etc.

I guess I overestimated you. You always portray yourself as being one who believes that what is morally right is paramount. I guess not. You're merely a poor hypocritical schlep just like everyone else.

 

[radcen]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

I disagree. Good cannot be done to dead person. Perhaps to their memory/legacy etc but not to them.

My second point is that I cannot condone capital punishment unless I'm willing to allow that I or my family be subjected to it even if I or they are innocent. Since I cannot condone it for myself I cannot condone it for anyone. If I personally am not willing to take a risk I cannot demand that someone take it. That morality informs my political position with respect to the death penalty.

On my last I'm saying that because people willingly accept the risk of death in an activity they participate it that activity cannot be compared to an innocent being executed. Neither killing is justified but the situations are not comparable either.

Not even to their memory/legacy. All most people will remember is that they were executed for a crime. Very few people read disclaimers. Even fewer believe them.

 

[Multicam]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

What's the tipping point? When is it less expensive to prosecute and execute a heinous criminal than it is to house, feed and guard him for the rest of his life?

How many years of incarceration does it cost to complete all the legal proceedings prior to a criminal's execution?

I have to agree that there are heinous crimes or people who are so evil that you actually want to remove them from society on the most permanent basis possible.

Perhaps it may well cost more to complete the legal proceedings while housing the criminal; that may well be the case. But as I said before, my main point is I believe those who destroy the lives of others through murder, rape, and the like, deserve to pay by having their own lives destroyed. And I think this should be done regardless of the cost.

As far as the legal proceedings go, I think our justice system drags out their proceedings far too long, for any number of reasons. I believe it's quite simple: if there is clear evidence showing the accused has committed the crime, get the conviction from the jury and sentence the criminal. I think these procedures take far too long in many (though not all) cases. Do it in a more timely manner, and you'll cut way down on the feeding and housing of the criminal.

 

[eohrnberger]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Perhaps it may well cost more to complete the legal proceedings while housing the criminal; that may well be the case. But as I said before, my main point is I believe those who destroy the lives of others through murder, rape, and the like, deserve to pay by having their own lives destroyed. And I think this should be done regardless of the cost.

As far as the legal proceedings go, I think our justice system drags out their proceedings far too long, for any number of reasons. I believe it's quite simple: if there is clear evidence showing the accused has committed the crime, get the conviction from the jury and sentence the criminal. I think these procedures take far too long in many (though not all) cases. Do it in a more timely manner, and you'll cut way down on the feeding and housing of the criminal.

The wheels of justice shouldn't roll over any of the accused, nor should they be prevented from making progress either.
So we have a balancing act between the rights of the accused and the rights of society and its members.

Such is always the case, the balancing act I mean, and not in just this instance, seemingly every instance.

 

[Multicam]

Re: Death Penalty – for or against?

Executing people is actually more expensive than keeping them in prison for life. The cases cost more to litigate, much more to appeal and death penalty inmates cost at least twice as much to house.

If there is clear evidence irrefutable if looked at objectively, logically, and rationally that someone has committed murder, rape or the like, then it makes no sense whatsoever to waste time with appeals. And it most definitely doesn't make a shred of sense to keep criminals sitting in prison for months or years if they receive the death penalty. If they're sentenced to be executed, why not complete that execution sooner rather than later? I see no valid reason not to.