Dear McTojo (1 Viewer)

[McTojo]

Recently, I received an e-mail from a guy and this is what he wrote:

My wife is Japanese and I am Scottish. She gets upset when I tell her that pearl harbour was "a cool move" and chant "NIPPON" in the only good parts of that crap movie Pearl Harbour. I tried to get her and her Japanese girlfriends to play "Axis and Allies: War in the Pacific "with me, but they said they felt conflicted playing such a cool game.

Is this a by-product of the lack of proper nationalist education in Japan?
When we have a son I want him to be a Scottish and Japanese nationalist.

My response:

Thank you for your e-mail and for voicing your concern; and concerned you should be.

Since Japans devestating loss during WW2 the Japanese have never been the same. Most Japanese born in the Showa era (ask you wife what that means) have lost all sense of nationalism which was de-institutionalized by the Occupational forces in the 50's.

Your wife's mother is a by-product of this de-institutionalization and as such has institutionalized her daughter(your wife) to recognize this defeat thereby creating a victim mentality i.e. nationalism is bad; America protects us, therefore, America is good.

Back in 1970, Yukio Mishima, a famous playwriter and novelist, tried to revive nationalism in Japan. He and his brigrade stormed the defense agency and took hostage General Mashita. Mishima then demanded that the army call the emperor by his true name and as a symbol of his loyalty and allegiance to the emperor he committed seppuku before the world ! His suicide was broadcast all over the world.

any other questions let me know

 

[jfuh]

Recently, I received an e-mail from a guy and this is what he wrote:

My wife is Japanese and I am Scottish. She gets upset when I tell her that pearl harbour was "a cool move" and chant "NIPPON" in the only good parts of that crap movie Pearl Harbour. I tried to get her and her Japanese girlfriends to play "Axis and Allies: War in the Pacific "with me, but they said they felt conflicted playing such a cool game.

Is this a by-product of the lack of proper nationalist education in Japan?
When we have a son I want him to be a Scottish and Japanese nationalist.

My response:

Thank you for your e-mail and for voicing your concern; and concerned you should be.

Since Japans devestating loss during WW2 the Japanese have never been the same. Most Japanese born in the Showa era (ask you wife what that means) have lost all sense of nationalism which was de-institutionalized by the Occupational forces in the 50's.

Your wife's mother is a by-product of this de-institutionalization and as such has institutionalized her daughter(your wife) to recognize this defeat thereby creating a victim mentality i.e. nationalism is bad; America protects us, therefore, America is good.

Back in 1970, Yukio Mishima, a famous playwriter and novelist, tried to revive nationalism in Japan. He and his brigrade stormed the defense agency and took hostage General Mashita. Mishima then demanded that the army call the emperor by his true name and as a symbol of his loyalty and allegiance to the emperor he committed seppuku before the world ! His suicide was broadcast all over the world.

any other questions let me know

Was not Nationalism that got Japan to start the pacific theater and invasion of it's Asian neighbors in WWII in the first place?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Recently, I received an e-mail from a guy and this is what he wrote:

My wife is Japanese and I am Scottish. She gets upset when I tell her that pearl harbour was "a cool move" and chant "NIPPON" in the only good parts of that crap movie Pearl Harbour. I tried to get her and her Japanese girlfriends to play "Axis and Allies: War in the Pacific "with me, but they said they felt conflicted playing such a cool game.

Is this a by-product of the lack of proper nationalist education in Japan?
When we have a son I want him to be a Scottish and Japanese nationalist.

My response:

Thank you for your e-mail and for voicing your concern; and concerned you should be.

Since Japans devestating loss during WW2 the Japanese have never been the same. Most Japanese born in the Showa era (ask you wife what that means) have lost all sense of nationalism which was de-institutionalized by the Occupational forces in the 50's.

Your wife's mother is a by-product of this de-institutionalization and as such has institutionalized her daughter(your wife) to recognize this defeat thereby creating a victim mentality i.e. nationalism is bad; America protects us, therefore, America is good.

Back in 1970, Yukio Mishima, a famous playwriter and novelist, tried to revive nationalism in Japan. He and his brigrade stormed the defense agency and took hostage General Mashita. Mishima then demanded that the army call the emperor by his true name and as a symbol of his loyalty and allegiance to the emperor he committed seppuku before the world ! His suicide was broadcast all over the world.

any other questions let me know

And this is in the 'Come in and say Hi' forum because...?

BTW, welcome to Debate Politics, McTojo.

 

[Monkey Mind]

Was not Nationalism that got Japan to start the pacific theater and invasion of it's Asian neighbors in WWII in the first place?

Imperialism, perhaps fueled by Nationalism. Most likely fueled also by simple physics and the need to expand.

I agree with McTojo, the Pearl Harbor invasion was a brilliant military move either way you look at it. If one goes by the prevailing myth, it was a bold sneak-attack on the sleeping giant's Navy stronghold. On the conspiracy theorist side, it was an ingenious way of finally getting ourselves into the war by pretending surprise and putting the blame on the Japanese.

Pearl Harbor is not the issue though. The main issue with Japanese nationalism is the bitter memories it evokes for the Chinese. That particular dynamic is still out of balance, as it has never been avenged. Unlike Pearl Harbor, which was repaid a hundred times over. Today is definitely not the time for renewed Japanese nationalism. The last thing they want to do is piss China off. I think Japanese nationalism could prove as dangerous now as it was in WWII, but for different reasons and to different people. Namely, the Japanese. And by extension, the US.

 

[Tashah]

Moderator's Warning:

Moved to a more appropriate Forum

 

[McTojo]

Pearl Harbor is not the issue though. The main issue with Japanese nationalism is the bitter memories it evokes for the Chinese. That particular dynamic is still out of balance, as it has never been avenged. Unlike Pearl Harbor, which was repaid a hundred times over. Today is definitely not the time for renewed Japanese nationalism. The last thing they want to do is piss China off. I think Japanese nationalism could prove as dangerous now as it was in WWII, but for different reasons and to different people. Namely, the Japanese. And by extension, the US.

"The last thing Japan wants to do is kowtow to China," is what you meant to say. Shinzo Abe has made it perfectly clear that Japan and China are two different countries who do not share the same democratic values. For China they have human rights issues that they haven't addressed yet. For Japan, it's about change and dynamics i.e. revise the antiquated constitution to allow for broader support of the Japan/U.S. Security Alliance thus regaining dominance in the region.

 

[jfuh]

Imperialism, perhaps fueled by Nationalism. Most likely fueled also by simple physics and the need to expand.

I agree with McTojo, the Pearl Harbor invasion was a brilliant military move either way you look at it. If one goes by the prevailing myth, it was a bold sneak-attack on the sleeping giant's Navy stronghold. On the conspiracy theorist side, it was an ingenious way of finally getting ourselves into the war by pretending surprise and putting the blame on the Japanese.

Pearl Harbor is not the issue though. The main issue with Japanese nationalism is the bitter memories it evokes for the Chinese. That particular dynamic is still out of balance, as it has never been avenged. Unlike Pearl Harbor, which was repaid a hundred times over. Today is definitely not the time for renewed Japanese nationalism. The last thing they want to do is piss China off. I think Japanese nationalism could prove as dangerous now as it was in WWII, but for different reasons and to different people. Namely, the Japanese. And by extension, the US.

You hit on a strong point. Nationalism was what fueled Japanese imperialism strongly in WWII. Thus reimplementation of Japanese nationalism for everyone is synonomous with reimplementation of Japanese imperialism/expansionism. ******* off China, Japan has already done that, which is why Sino/Japanese relations today are frozen - both sides loose, but Japan suffers far more then China because of so.

 

[McTojo]

You hit on a strong point. Nationalism was what fueled Japanese imperialism strongly in WWII. Thus reimplementation of Japanese nationalism for everyone is synonomous with reimplementation of Japanese imperialism/expansionism. ******* off China, Japan has already done that, which is why Sino/Japanese relations today are frozen - both sides loose, but Japan suffers far more then China because of so.

Japanese nationalism was a good thing for asia. Remember, it was Japan who tried to liberate China and asia from western imperialism. Especially at a time when China was raped by so many other western nations.

And Japan looses nothing and sufferes nothing over Communist regime like China.

 

[jfuh]

"The last thing Japan wants to do is kowtow to China," is what you meant to say. Shinzo Abe has made it perfectly clear that Japan and China are two different countries who do not share the same democratic values. For China they have human rights issues that they haven't addressed yet. For Japan, it's about change and dynamics i.e. revise the antiquated constitution to allow for broader support of the Japan/U.S. Security Alliance thus regaining dominance in the region.

China is a democracy? Perhaps you are referencing to Taiwan?
Japan needs to kowtow to China for time simple reason that it was Japan who was the aggressor to the slaughter and genocide of millions of Chinese during WWII. Japan also needs to kowtow to the Koreas as well as all her Asiatic neighbors whom she invaded and committed attrocities against.
Japan also needs to take out those class A war criminals from the Yasukuni shrine in the middle of Tokyo that is the equivalent of Germans erecting a church idolizing Hitler in the middle of Berlin.
Mind you of what former german chancellor [SIZE=-1] Willy Brandt did

This was on Dec. 7 1970 in Warsaw Poland - USSR. Of which the USSR could hardly be called a "humanitarian" state. A picture is worth a thousand words.
The whole "China has human rights issues" is nothing but a red herring that has absolutely nothing to do with the war crimes for which Japan has still not offered any formal apology for. Instead we have just the opposite revisionist history happening not amongst private individual citizens but at the top levels of government.
[/SIZE]

 

[jfuh]

Japanese nationalism was a good thing for asia. Remember, it was Japan who tried to liberate China and asia from western imperialism. Especially at a time when China was raped by so many other western nations.

Japan liberated China from western imperialism? You've got to be kidding me. Japan herself was the eastern imperialist country that raped China even further with the massive genocides at Nanking, Shanghai and further inland along the Yangtze river. Biological experiments in Manchuria, the kidnapping, imprisonment and prostitution of Chinese women for the Japanese army as comfort women. I prefer not to post the graphic images of Japanese attrocities in China on this website but tell me just how Japan in anyway "liberated" China?

And Japan looses nothing and sufferes nothing over Communist regime like China.

Nothing? Firstly, China is communist in name only. Only the ignorant would still call China a communist state. In reality China is quite capitalist, perhaps even more so then the US in some aspects.
How much trade goes on between China and Japan, are you stating that frozen relations have no affect on Japan whatsoever? Is it your statement that with the world clammering for the market of 1/4 of the worlds population and Japan unable to get a share of that cake that it in no way impacts the economic power of Japan?

 

[McTojo]

China is a democracy? Perhaps you are referencing to Taiwan?
Japan needs to kowtow to China for time simple reason that it was Japan who was the aggressor to the slaughter and genocide of millions of Chinese during WWII. Japan also needs to kowtow to the Koreas as well as all her Asiatic neighbors whom she invaded and committed attrocities against.
Japan also needs to take out those class A war criminals from the Yasukuni shrine in the middle of Tokyo that is the equivalent of Germans erecting a church idolizing Hitler in the middle of Berlin.

No country should have to stoop so low as to apologize to China or Korea. And please stop using Iris Chang type figures when you say "Millions of Chinese" were slaughtered, it's simply not true. Korea needs to thank Japan for building it up. And no one will ever remove those 14 class a judicial martyrs from Yasukuni. Those men who were labelled "war criminal" were labelled by war criminals i.e. Britain and Washington under an illegitimate court anyway, even the lead judge Radha Binod Pal who didn't agree with the accusations that were lodged against Tojo because of unsubstantiated evidence.

Willy Brandt is a pitiful and ignorant man. That's why nobody knows him but you. And it's not a Red Herring. It's a legitimate claim against a hypocritical nation that commited atrocities against people itself, wake up

 

[jfuh]

No country should have to stoop so low as to apologize to China or Korea. And please stop using Iris Chang type figures when you say "Millions of Chinese" were slaughtered, it's simply not true. Korea needs to thank Japan for building it up.

Ahh I see, so how many Chinese were slaughtered? I should accept it is not true because you say so? Or do you have reputable sources?
Korea needs to Thank Japan? You've got to seriously be kidding me, perhaps the US should thank Japan for Pearl harbor, afterall, if it weren't for PH, the US wouldn't be the world's super power it is today. Korea: "Thank you Japan for raping our women" - unbelievable.

And no one will ever remove those 14 class a judicial martyrs from Yasukuni. Those men who were labelled "war criminal" were labelled by war criminals i.e. Britain and Washington under an illegitimate court anyway, even the lead judge Radha Binod Pal who didn't agree with the accusations that were lodged against Tojo because of unsubstantiated evidence.

Martyrs? To what did they martyr themselves for tj? The countless millions of innocent unarmed civilians across East and Southeast Asia?

Willy Brandt is a pitiful and ignorant man. That's why nobody knows him but you. And it's not a Red Herring. It's a legitimate claim against a hypocritical nation that commited atrocities against people itself, wake up

If nobody but I know of him, how can you call him a pitiful and ignorant man?
I note you have avoided in answering the question, so I shall ask it again.
What do the domestic and civil affairs of one nation have anything to do with the attrocities commited by another nation against it?
You have issue apologizing to Red China? Then apologize to White China - aka Republic of China.
You have issue with apologizing to N. Korea? Then apologize to democratic S. Korea.

 

[McTojo]

Ahh I see, so how many Chinese were slaughtered? I should accept it is not true because you say so? Or do you have reputable sources?
Korea needs to Thank Japan? You've got to seriously be kidding me, perhaps the US should thank Japan for Pearl harbor, afterall, if it weren't for PH, the US wouldn't be the world's super power it is today. Korea: "Thank you Japan for raping our women" - unbelievable.
Martyrs? To what did they martyr themselves for tj? The countless millions of innocent unarmed civilians across East and Southeast Asia?

Here's a little tid bit for you. When you single out one race of people like the Chinese who constantly complain about Japans wartime aggression, it makes you think that only the Chinese suffered under Japan's military aggression.

In the case of Hitler and the Jews it's the same parallelism: ("The Japanese imperialist regime was responsible for inflicting great wounds upon millions of poor little Chinese people"). Or (" Hitler was a monster who was systematically responsible for his attempt at trying to annihilate the Jews"). In fact, and most historians would agree, is that Hitler murdered more Slavs and more Gypsies than he did the Jews, and yet nobody is lamenting their plight and suffering...not even today. You think the Jews care ?? They use every opportunity like the Chinese to point the spot light on their suffering.


China in the traditional sense has officially 56 nationalities within its borders as follows;

Han
Zhuang
Manchu
Hui
Miao
Uygur
Yi
Tujia
Mongol
Tibetan
Buyei
Dong
Yao
Chosen meaning Koreans.
Bai
Hani
Li
Kazak
Dai
She
Lisu
Gelao
Lahu
Dongxiang
Va
Sui
Naxi
Qiang
Tu
Xibe
Mulao
Kirgi
Daur
Jingpo
Salar
Blang
Maonan
Tajik
Pumi
Achang
Nu
Ewenki
Gin
Jino
De'ang
Uzbek
Russ
Yugur
Bonan
Monba
Oroqen
Derung
Tatar
Hezhen
Lhoba
Gaoshan

To indiscriminately call all individuals of the listed groups IN China "Chinese" would amount to ignorance and nothing else. What Chinese were murdered ?
how do you know millions of Chinese were murdered ? The IMTFE didn't even have substantial evidence enough then to win an overwhelming conviction against Tojo if millions of Chinese were in fact murdered ? For your information, Iris Chang committed suicide awhile back so you can't use her analogy anymore.

If nobody but I know of him, how can you call him a pitiful and ignorant man?
I note you have avoided in answering the question, so I shall ask it again.
What do the domestic and civil affairs of one nation have anything to do with the attrocities commited by another nation against it?
You have issue apologizing to Red China? Then apologize to White China - aka Republic of China.
You have issue with apologizing to N. Korea? Then apologize to democratic S. Korea.

I have problem with the legitimacy of the claims that have been lodged against Japan. Japan did cause great suffering throughout greater asia, not just China. It's not about China & Japan. It's about the whole of asia. Japan has apologized publically 25 times and has paid billions in reparations to these nations. That's it ! For China to continue to spot light the issue as centeral to diplomatic relations is childish and ignorant.

 

[jfuh]

Here's a little tid bit for you. When you single out one race of people like the Chinese who constantly complain about Japans wartime aggression, it makes you think that only the Chinese suffered under Japan's military aggression.

I singled out Chinese? Did I? I believe I also showed of Korean, Vietnamese, Burma, Phillipines and so on. Did I not say East Asia and southeast asia? Yes I did.

In the case of Hitler and the Jews it's the same parallelism: ("The Japanese imperialist regime was responsible for inflicting great wounds upon millions of poor little Chinese people"). Or (" Hitler was a monster who was systematically responsible for his attempt at trying to annihilate the Jews"). In fact, and most historians would agree, is that Hitler murdered more Slavs and more Gypsies than he did the Jews, and yet nobody is lamenting their plight and suffering...not even today. You think the Jews care ?? They use every opportunity like the Chinese to point the spot light on their suffering.

Did I not point out clearly that the Germans slaughtered those who were non-Arian? Yes again I did. Try to stay on track.
Though I'm not questioning the slavs and gypsies but I would prefer you back up your claim with a reputtable source.

China in the traditional sense has officially 56 nationalities within its borders as follows;

Han
Zhuang
Manchu
Hui
Miao
Uygur
Yi
Tujia
Mongol
Tibetan
Buyei
Dong
Yao
Chosen meaning Koreans.
Bai
Hani
Li
Kazak
Dai
She
Lisu
Gelao
Lahu
Dongxiang
Va
Sui
Naxi
Qiang
Tu
Xibe
Mulao
Kirgi
Daur
Jingpo
Salar
Blang
Maonan
Tajik
Pumi
Achang
Nu
Ewenki
Gin
Jino
De'ang
Uzbek
Russ
Yugur
Bonan
Monba
Oroqen
Derung
Tatar
Hezhen
Lhoba
Gaoshan

Nationalities? You seem confused, these are ethnicities.

To indiscriminately call all individuals of the listed groups IN China "Chinese" would amount to ignorance and nothing else. What Chinese were murdered?

China is a nation, Chinese is a nationality, you know like being American is a nationality and not an ethnicity. Those that you brought up are ethnicities. So if you want to make it so they are all nationalities, fine so be it, Japan also murdered on top of those that I mentioned, let's add in the 56 other nationalities in there. All in cold blood and all indiscriminatly because of the feeling that these nationalities were less human then Japanese.

how do you know millions of Chinese were murdered ? The IMTFE didn't even have substantial evidence enough then to win an overwhelming conviction against Tojo if millions of Chinese were in fact murdered ? For your information, Iris Chang committed suicide awhile back so you can't use her analogy anymore.

first off, What does Iris Chang committing suicide have anything to do with the validity of her claims even if I were using her claims? WHy would I then not be able to use her Analogy? Not to mention the fact that she commited suicide from the constant harrasement from Japanese radicalist right wing fanatic nationalists.
Where have I acquired my figures?
Here you go.
Source 1 - A contest to see who could slaughter the most in a day.
Source 2 - You add up the numbers and see if you get numbers. Nanking is one, then there are also the bio experiments and warfare in Manchuria (source 3) that I have mentioned more then once that you have ignored to mention or respond to. Note China is not the only country?
Source 4 -

The Chinese lost approximately 3.22 million soldiers. 9.13 million civilians died in the crossfire, and another 8.4 million as non-military casualties. (A interesting comparison: The commonly used figure for the number of Jewish victims as a result of the Nazi Holocaust is six million) Some Chinese historians claimed the total military and non-military deaths of the Chinese were at most 35 million. Most Western historians believed that the casualties were at least 20 million.

Source 5 -

It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %. "The Looting of Asia" - Chalmers Johnson professor emeritus of the University of California, San Diego

Source 6 - R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military "murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture.

Shall I go on? It's not too difficult seeing as hindsight is 20/20.

I have problem with the legitimacy of the claims that have been lodged against Japan. Japan did cause great suffering throughout greater asia, not just China. It's not about China & Japan. It's about the whole of asia. Japan has apologized publically 25 times and has paid billions in reparations to these nations. That's it ! For China to continue to spot light the issue as centeral to diplomatic relations is childish and ignorant.

Who ever stated or insinuated that this was only about China vs Japan?
Japan has not once publicly apologized at all for it's war attrocities. Not once.
You claim 25, please show us those 25 times.
For Japan whom claims to be an economic leader in the world, a "civil and humble industrialized nation" why does it refuse to accept it's wartime past. Why do those like you refuse to accept the reality that Imperliast Japan was nothing more then a savage slaughterhouse against those nations whom she invaded. Germany has admited so and made countless apologies, infact as I've stated earlier it is illegal for Germans not to know of the holocoust, yet quite sadly the same can not be said for Japan. There would be no issue for the communist party of beijing to spotlight if Japan simply just festered up and made official appologies and took out those enshrined in Yasukuni. Yet Japan denies all this and enshrines war criminals - disgusting.

 

[McTojo]

Public apology made in Korea: verbal apology

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1599642.stm

Written apology:

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9810/08/korea.japan.02/

Between Keizo Obuchi and Chinese leaderChiang Zemin:http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/press/1998/11/1126.html#3

This is just a start.

your figure is based off of impirical observation and anything western is completely illegitimate in terms of substantial evidence. There is no such evidence that exist to prove that Japan murdered 30 million asians, nothing. In the case of the Natzi they had concentration camps set up; easy to see that they murdered six million. In the case of China, it's about what somebody said to somebody else. We call it propaganda. Why don't you ask the Japanee how many ethnic Chinese they killed.

 

[jfuh]

Public apology made in Korea: verbal apology

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1599642.stm

Saying one thing, then doing another.
Also Koizumi's apology to China was as such:

Japan, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility and with a feeling of deep remorse and heartfelt apology always engraved in mind.Asian summit in Indonesia - April 22, 2005

Then on the same day 80 members of his cabinent go to Yasukuni. I'm sorry but where's the sincerity in that?

Written apology:

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9810/08/korea.japan.02/

1998? Yes and what is the expression by S. Korea today? What happened to Obuchi?
From your own source:

It was the first written apology ever issued to an individual country by Japan for its actions before and during World War II.

Funny, something about 25+ apologies.

Between Keizo Obuchi and Chinese leader Chiang Zemin:http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/press/1998/11/1126.html#3

Again 1998? Yes yes, and the ministry of foreign affairs of Japan would not be propaganda? What did Obuchi say? Let me familiarze you with this proverb " Actions speak louder then words" Did Obuchi take out those Class A war criminals? And of all times why did Koizumi choose August 16th to visit Yasukuni this year and not to mention in full dress? Perhaps you are aware that from suit brought up by victims of WWII the PM going to Yasukuni is unconstitutional as was shown by the Osaka court more then 3 years ago.

This is just a start.

Plz go on, I look forward to the remainder of your "apologies".

your figure is based off of impirical observation and anything western is completely illegitimate in terms of substantial evidence.

This is because of why?

There is no such evidence that exist to prove that Japan murdered 30 million asians, nothing. In the case of the Natzi they had concentration camps set up; easy to see that they murdered six million. In the case of China, it's about what somebody said to somebody else.

You know this because? How do you explain the publications in the Japanese news reports of the day that also stated as such? you know like my source 1 above with the translations?

We call it propaganda. Why don't you ask the Japanee how many ethnic Chinese they killed.

Firstly who's we?
Secondly how can I? How can anyone, being that A, those involved deny thier involvement; B those living in that era were fed the propaganda of imperialist Japan; C Those today are none the wiser because the government whitewashed the text books with revisionist history.


It's quite interesting that you do not deny the slaughter of innocent civilians but then neither have you condemned these actions, why is this?

 

[McTojo]

I do not deny the atrocities. But when I look China and all of her atrocities and hypocrisy it disgusts me to think that they would demand an apology.

 

[TurtleDude]

Recently, I received an e-mail from a guy and this is what he wrote:

My wife is Japanese and I am Scottish. She gets upset when I tell her that pearl harbour was "a cool move" and chant "NIPPON" in the only good parts of that crap movie Pearl Harbour. I tried to get her and her Japanese girlfriends to play "Axis and Allies: War in the Pacific "with me, but they said they felt conflicted playing such a cool game.

Is this a by-product of the lack of proper nationalist education in Japan?
When we have a son I want him to be a Scottish and Japanese nationalist.

My response:

Thank you for your e-mail and for voicing your concern; and concerned you should be.

Since Japans devestating loss during WW2 the Japanese have never been the same. Most Japanese born in the Showa era (ask you wife what that means) have lost all sense of nationalism which was de-institutionalized by the Occupational forces in the 50's.

Your wife's mother is a by-product of this de-institutionalization and as such has institutionalized her daughter(your wife) to recognize this defeat thereby creating a victim mentality i.e. nationalism is bad; America protects us, therefore, America is good.

Back in 1970, Yukio Mishima, a famous playwriter and novelist, tried to revive nationalism in Japan. He and his brigrade stormed the defense agency and took hostage General Mashita. Mishima then demanded that the army call the emperor by his true name and as a symbol of his loyalty and allegiance to the emperor he committed seppuku before the world ! His suicide was broadcast all over the world.

any other questions let me know

great author-I read his tetralogy many years ago.

 

[TurtleDude]

I do not deny the atrocities. But when I look China and all of her atrocities and hypocrisy it disgusts me to think that they would demand an apology.

this is what happens when they won and you lost

 

[McTojo]

Japan liberated China from western imperialism? You've got to be kidding me. Japan herself was the eastern imperialist country that raped China even further with the massive genocides at Nanking, Shanghai and further inland along the Yangtze river. Biological experiments in Manchuria, the kidnapping, imprisonment and prostitution of Chinese women for the Japanese army as comfort women. I prefer not to post the graphic images of Japanese attrocities in China on this website but tell me just how Japan in anyway "liberated" China?

Yes, save China from western emperialism. In fact, you keep using "murder" and "rape" as the shield of your argument, why ? The people at that time in China was uncivilized and were highly disorganized, so anything was bound to happen. Western emperialism ran rampant throughout China, not in Japan. Japan learnt from the west so that it wouldn't be ran over by western imperialist - the only nation to defeat a European power. China was foolish when they deposed Puyi, the last emperor of China, they dismantled a system that had worked for thousands of years only to replace it "nothing."
What emperial Japan did was wrong and heinous but it was not unique, you just choose to make it an issue at time when nobody is listening.

Firstly, China is communist in name only. Only the ignorant would still call China a communist state. In reality China is quite capitalist, perhaps even more so then the US in some aspects.
How much trade goes on between China and Japan, are you stating that frozen relations have no affect on Japan whatsoever? Is it your statement that with the world clammering for the market of 1/4 of the worlds population and Japan unable to get a share of that cake that it in no way impacts the economic power of Japan?

Have you ever been to China ? I have. China is a Communist State. Its capitalism is containing within special economic zones, that's it. You think Chinese people there enjoy freedom of speech, thought, and freedom of religion ? Does Tiannamen Square ring a bell ? Why were college students demonstrating there ? Because they wanted a change !

 

[jfuh]

Yes, save China from western emperialism.

Japan was doing nothing of the sort. Japan invaded China not to liberate but to colonize for her own means.

In fact, you keep using "murder" and "rape" as the shield of your argument, why ?

Let's see, how should I put this into words you might comprehend, BECAUSE IT'S WHAT FU^KING HAPPEND. Are you that dense?

The people at that time in China was uncivilized and were highly disorganized, so anything was bound to happen.

A nearly 5000 year old civilization is hardly what I would call uncivilized. Unwestern I'd agree, but uncivilized? That's bullshit. This is nothing but the same apologetics of then imperialist Japan and now Japanese fanatical right wing nationalists.

Western emperialism ran rampant throughout China, not in Japan. Japan learnt from the west so that it wouldn't be ran over by western imperialist - the only nation to defeat a European power.

How does this justify anything? IS this supposed to validate anything? By the way Sino-Franco war, guess who won the war?

China was foolish when they deposed Puyi, the last emperor of China, they dismantled a system that had worked for thousands of years only to replace it "nothing."

The Qing government was corrupt to the core; which is why in 1911 with the assistance of foreign nations, led by Dr. Sun yat-sen overthrew said government installing the first democratic republic in all of Asia.

What emperial Japan did was wrong and heinous but it was not unique, you just choose to make it an issue at time when nobody is listening.

It was very unique. No western power upon colonization of any country has ever resortted to such barbaric means with newspapers glorifying contests of genocide. We know absolutely that the Germans killed 6million+ in concentration camps because of the German culture of keeping a record of everything. Being as they were concentration camps it wasn't that hard either.
We do not know of absolute numbers that the Japanese slaughtered because it was done so in the streets of cities, there were no camps because the Japanese didn't want to waste time on such facilities - it was much simpler to simply resolve the issues on the spot.
Thus far you have stated that there were no such numbers in casualties even when presented with objective and conservative figures because there was no "record"; made it ok of Japanese militant conquest because of the tu quoquoi fallacy that everyone else was doing it. And now without backing up your own assertions run away from answering the questions posted to you in all the former posts. For shame.

Have you ever been to China ? I have.

Wow, is this supposed to validate anything? Have I been to China? Yes, I'll better you on that, not only have I been to China for a few hops around touring, I've lived there for up to half a year, next red-herring?

China is a Communist State.

Did you bother to read what I posted? By name only.

Its capitalism is containing within special economic zones, that's it.

Really? So can I get free meals at the cornerstore?

You think Chinese people there enjoy freedom of speech, thought, and freedom of religion?

Firstly, Communism is not a political system, it's an economic model, the opposite of which is capitalism.
Your idol country Japan didn't exactly suddenly become a free society over night. And in realities, it's hardly a democratic state at all. Like China, it's only in name only and not reality. So what's your point? Is this strawman supposed to validate your argument?

Does Tiannamen Square ring a bell ? Why were college students demonstrating there ? Because they wanted a change !

Another red-herring. But I'll amuse you. Tell me, just what exactly started the student demonstrations?

It's interesting how you have dropped your argument of economic impacts.

 

[McTojo]

Japan was doing nothing of the sort. Japan invaded China not to liberate but to colonize for her own means.

Japan attempted to colonize China in order to restore the emperor Puyi, last emperor of China, back into power. This way, his younger brother would marry Aishin Kakura ***etsu, the relative of Hirohito This way they could have asserted control over China. You have a very western way of understand history, it's flawed to say the least. If you only knew the truth you could be free.

 

[jfuh]

Japan attempted to colonize China in order to restore the emperor Puyi, last emperor of China, back into power. This way, his younger brother would marry Aishin Kakura ***etsu, the relative of Hirohito This way they could have asserted control over China. You have a very western way of understand history, it's flawed to say the least. If you only knew the truth you could be free.

The emperor puyi only had reign over China for 3 years. 1908~1911. To which then he had no authority whatsoever. Japan's invasion of manchuria was not until 1932 founding "Manchukuo".
Japan taking over control from Russia over Manchuria, Japan wished to assert authority over the region as the "rightful" ruler. Thus the installment of a puppet ruler, in this case, Aixinjuelo Puyi.
Now, how does this in anyway show that Japan's intention was to "liberate" China? And how in so doing do the biological warfare camps in Manchuria fall into place? Western understanding? Please then enlighten me, what is the Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or Phillipine way of understanding?

Your arguments have become shorter and shorter. Perhaps you are planning a argumentative sneak attack?

 

[McTojo]

The emperor puyi only had reign over China for 3 years. 1908~1911. To which then he had no authority whatsoever. Japan's invasion of manchuria was not until 1932 founding "Manchukuo".
Japan taking over control from Russia over Manchuria, Japan wished to assert authority over the region as the "rightful" ruler. Thus the installment of a puppet ruler, in this case, Aixinjuelo Puyi.
Now, how does this in anyway show that Japan's intention was to "liberate" China? And how in so doing do the biological warfare camps in Manchuria fall into place? Western understanding? Please then enlighten me, what is the Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, or Phillipine way of understanding?

Your arguments have become shorter and shorter. Perhaps you are planning a argumentative sneak attack?

Japan is an asian country that was trying to liberate China from western domination. The biological camps were there to experiment on healthy Chinese people in order to study the effects of chemicals and other biological agents...what, did you think we would use our own people ? Just consider their sacrifice an advancement in science and medicine. Did you know that Dr. Mengele's experiments on the Jews advanced medicine also, his works laid the ground work for advanced skin graphting and skin replacement surgerys.

By infiltrating the Chinese blood line Japan would've been able to have a greater influence in China because China was too big to conquer with men alone. And though it fell apart when Puyi refused to follow through, his country suffered greatly for his foolishness.

 

[McTojo]

I never denied that atrocities were committed by the Japanese and I never said that Japan didn't kill many people and cause great pain to its asian neighbors. These fact have never been denied by me or the right wing. The point is is that we don't care to dwell on it because justice was served by the IMTFE and the Pot's Dam Declaration. Tojo and fourteen others hanged for crime against humanity, they deserved it. On the other hand, their sins our forgiven them according to our religion and they died sacrificing their lives for the country, albiet they murdered in the name of the emperor, but he was God as far as we were concerned. We would die for him no matter what the cost ! Westerners call it blind allegiance...we call it honor.

It is time to forgive and forget. It's time for China to stop meddling in our affairs. We regarding all of our soldiers as noble souls. No, Japanese court ever condemn Tojo to die, victors justice decided that. We will worship at our shrine and pay respect to our fallen hereos who fought against western emperialism.