Dawa: The Spiritual element of Islam by Imam Feisal Rauf

[Agent Ferris]

Focus your attention on the change you want to see, rather than focusing it on what you are opposed to. Condemning other people for the choices they make(i.e. Supporting Sharia Law) accomplishes nothing. As Gandhi would say, "be the change you want to see in the world."

Supporting secularism while not simultaneously opposing theocracy? FTW?

 

[First Thought]

Supporting secularism while not simultaneously opposing theocracy? FTW?

Precisely. This is a difficult concept for a lot of people to wrap their heads arounds because they are still caught up in dualistic thinking. Secularism and Theocracy are not opposites. Rather, they are entirely different concepts. For example, cold is not the opposite of hot. Heat is either present or it is not. Cold is either present or it is not.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Precisely. This is a difficult concept for a lot of people to wrap their heads arounds because they are still caught up in dualistic thinking. Secularism and Theocracy are not opposites. Rather, they are entirely different concepts. For example, cold is not the opposite of hot. Heat is either present or it is not. Cold is either present or it is not.

Secularism and theocracy can not coexist they are mutually exclusive concepts, an object can not be both hot and cold at the same time. You can not be for theocracy without being against secularism.

 

[First Thought]

Secularism and theocracy can not coexist they are mutually exclusive concepts, an object can not be both hot and cold at the same time. You can not be for theocracy without being against secularism.

I am for peace. I am not against war. In fact, I am not "against" anything. I use the Buddhist concept of Right Discrimination(In this case, "right" means "appropriate.") to affect the way I view the world.

As for the idea of opposites, no such thing exists unless you believe so. Hot is hot, cold is cold. "Hot" and "cold" are also entirely subjective. 55 degrees farenheit outside may be too cold for some people, tolerable to others, preferable to some and too warm for others.

 

[Agent Ferris]

I am for peace. I am not against war.

You can not be for peace without being against war. You can hope for peace and prepare for war but you can not be universally for peace while being totally against war.

In fact, I am not "against" anything. I use the Buddhist concept of Right Discrimination(In this case, "right" means "appropriate.") to affect the way I view the world.

As for the idea of opposites, no such thing exists unless you believe so. Hot is hot, cold is cold. "Hot" and "cold" are also entirely subjective. 55 degrees farenheit outside may be too cold for some people, tolerable to others, preferable to some and too warm for others.

Theocracy and secularism are mutually exclusive, they are antithetical, they can not coexist. It's really as simple as that.

 

[First Thought]

You can not be for peace without being against war. You can hope for peace and prepare for war but you can not be universally for peace while being totally against war.

I promise that you can, for that is exactly the case from my vantage point. Here's an analogy: Different concepts are like flavors. None of them are inherently "good" or "bad," they are just different. Judgements are then projected upon them by the individual. I choose Peace. I do not choose to then "dislike" or "hate" war and violence. I view them as different options with different ramifications for individuals who are not my self.

Theocracy and secularism are mutually exclusive, they are antithetical, they can not coexist. It's really as simple as that.

Again, vantage point is key. From a global viewpoint, they certainly can coexist.

 

[Objective Voice]

Secularism and theocracy can not coexist they are mutually exclusive concepts, an object can not be both hot and cold at the same time. You can not be for theocracy without being against secularism.

On the contrary! I've held objects that were so cold they burned.

As to your earlier question concerning the different Islamic sects, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the matter as my study on the religion isn't that extensive. However, I don't think what you espouse to is very productive. It's outright hate w/o giving the man or those who follow him and the religion an opportunity to show their true intensions. Instead, you've essentially convicted him/them before they've really done anything. And please do keep in mind I'm referring to the peaceful American-Muslims who are American citizens who have lived here, prayed here, obeyed our laws, defended our lands and worked shoulder-to-shoulder with their fellow Americans to uphold democracy.

As to this notion that Shariah Law will supplant U.S. Constitutional law, that just ain't gonna happen no matter how many Muslims come to this country. Our system of government wouldn't allow it no matter how hard those who wish to subvert our way of life and implant their ways try to do so. Just ain't gonna happen.

And before you say it, my eyes are open. It's just a shame your heart is so closed.

 

[Agent Ferris]

On the contrary! I've held objects that were so cold they burned.

The burn was not caused by extreme heat it was caused by extreme cold.

As to your earlier question concerning the different Islamic sects, I'll have to defer to your knowledge on the matter as my study on the religion isn't that extensive. However, I don't think what you espouse to is very productive. It's outright hate w/o giving the man or those who follow him and the religion an opportunity to show their true intensions.

He has already come out in support of the Islamist agenda, until he renounces his support for Sharia then I will continue to hold this view.

Instead, you've essentially convicted him/them before they've really done anything. And please do keep in mind I'm referring to the peaceful American-Muslims who are American citizens who have lived here, prayed here, obeyed our laws, defended our lands and worked shoulder-to-shoulder with their fellow Americans to uphold democracy.

Meh meh, the man spearheading the Mosque is an overt Islamist, his support of Sharia law is all I need to know about him, as an Islamist he is the enemy of secular liberalism.

As to this notion that Shariah Law will supplant U.S. Constitutional law, that just ain't gonna happen no matter how many Muslims come to this country. Our system of government wouldn't allow it no matter how hard those who wish to subvert our way of life and implant their ways try to do so. Just ain't gonna happen.

National Socialists gaining political authority in this country isn't going to happen either, should I not condemn the National Socialist party platform then? Just give the National Socialist platform a chance, you are convicting them before they have even done anything yet. :roll:

And before you say it, my eyes are open. It's just a shame your heart is so closed.

Yes my heart and mind are closed to support for Sharia law as should those of any freedom loving individual.

 

[Moot]

Secularism and theocracy can not coexist they are mutually exclusive concepts, an object can not be both hot and cold at the same time. You can not be for theocracy without being against secularism.

Ice cream with hot chocolate syrup poured on top is an object that is hot and cold at the same time. Both can be mutually exclusive and yet can exist in the same place at the same time. I can also be for both ice cream and hot chocolate syrup at the same time. It's not that difficult, really.

You can also have a cold and a fever at the same time. Chills and sweat can be mutually exclusive and yet exist at the same time in the same person.

You can also turn on the hot and cold water tap at your kitchen sink at the same time.

Spirtual belief and secular law can exist at the same time and in the same place. The US has been doing for it over 200 years and a minority of Muslims practicing their religion isn't going to change that.

 

[GayLibertarian]

Islam *exterminates* secularism.

If you dont beleive me ... find an "indy movie theatre", "all night bar" or "gay bar" in Mecca ---- the home of the Religion of Peace.

How about a gay bathhouse? If Islam is "tolerant" --- where's the gay bar and bathhouse?

Provide me a link to a Saudi HIV/AIDS clinic in Riyahd.

Can't find one?

Thats impossible. Mr. Obama told us Islam was a religion of "tolerance, peace and understanding."

There MUST be a gay bar in Saudi Arabia ... *SOMEWHERE*.

If there are gay bars in San Francisco ... then why not Saudi Arabia?

Islam IS peace, right? Imam Feisal told us "Imam has an affinity for our homosexual brothers and sisters."

Show me Imam Rauf: WHERE are the gay bars?