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DARK SIDE OF U.S. "HUMAN RIGHTS"

Fried Rice

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Dear All - there is very interesting report recently concerning human rights abuse by / in USA. It is very wide ranging and covers many aspects of USA daily life. You will be shocked at the exposure but also realise it is correct. your own media only touches these topics (if at all) and blinds you to think of 'news' being celebrity or in terms of patriotism.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/03/content_421420.htm

The report was widely herelded in Asia and Europe but i expect was taken from USA news in favour of a Martha Stewart story.

Please - no knee jerk comments about "how dare China critisize USA" or how i must be a spy etc etc etc. That type of comment is just insecure thickhead type response.

Fried Rice - My country not yet perfect...but better than...
 

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A perfunctory and quick skim of the article found a lot of inaccuracies. Things like :
The United States is the only country in the world that rules out ex-inmates' right to vote, which disenfranchises 5 million ex-inmates and 13 percent male black people (see Milenio, Mexico, Oct.22 2004).
Is inaccurate as it is at the level of a felony and not all inmates. Moreover, that is contingent on the state and not the country.

Then there are comments that lambaste a capitalist country for not being communist or socialist:
The United States refuses to ratify the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural rights and took negative attitudeto the economic, social and cultural rights of the laborers. Poverty, hunger and homelessness have haunted the world richest country.
There are comments like these that think that the United States is ruled by the declaration of independence than the constitution:
The Declaration of Independence said all men are created equal,so the gap between black and white people is simply an insult to the founding essence of the United States (see US News and World Report on March 29, 2004).
Then inaccurate body counts in Iraq that are actually around 15K:
A survey on Iraqi civilian deaths, based on the natural death rate before the war, estimates that the US-led invasion might haveled to 100,000 more deaths in the country, with most victims beingwomen and children.
That's just with quick page skipping. There have been, there are, and there most likely will be human rights violations in the United States. No country is perfect. Here's the United States Report on Civil Rights whose mission is as the following:
MISSION
To investigate complaints alleging that citizens are being deprived of their right to vote by reason of their race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin, or by reason of fraudulent practices.
To study and collect information relating to discrimination or a denial of equal protection of the laws under the Constitution because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin, or in the administration of justice.
To appraise federal laws and policies with respect to discrimination or denial of equal protection of the laws because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin, or in the administration of justice.
To serve as a national clearinghouse for information in respect to discrimination or denial of equal protection of the laws because of race, color, religion, sex, age, disability, or national origin.
To submit reports, findings, and recommendations to the President and Congress.
To issue public service announcements to discourage discrimination or denial of equal protection of the laws.
So yes there are problems in the US as your 11 page article elucidated, but we've got a free press that reports on it, a freedom of information act which watches the government, a free and open election that allows us to change the politicians if we feel they are corrupt and not working in our best interests.
 

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I stopped reading after this:

"In 2004 the atrocity of US troops abusing Iraqi POWs exposed the dark side of human rights performance of the United States. The scandal shocked the humanity and was condemned by the international community."

What scandal? A group of soldiers took it upon themselves to humiliate some terrorists in prison. They have been or are still in process of being convicted for thier crimes. The process of them being arrested was already started before Mapes "broke the news".

The biggest crime here was exposing our dirty laundry to the world.
 

Fried Rice

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Thanks for your comments and looking at report. i think even if these few inaccuracies are corect. the body of report is correct. i dont think your press is free - it is controlled by a select few and has extreme right wing bias. It swallows lies about the war in Iraq etc - our own media is also selective but we already know that here...

I see today USA abstain in USA vote as it refuses to allow that it could ever have a 'war criminal' - what hypocracy. you go to Iraq to 'save the people' - at least the ones you dont kill - but USA thinks of itself above the law. You march in claiming human rights abuse but think you above same type of law.

By 'you' i mean USA not you in person

Fried Rice is shaking his head
 

Fried Rice

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vauge said:
I stopped reading after this:

"In 2004 the atrocity of US troops abusing Iraqi POWs exposed the dark side of human rights performance of the United States. The scandal shocked the humanity and was condemned by the international community."

What scandal? A group of soldiers took it upon themselves to humiliate some terrorists in prison. They have been or are still in process of being convicted for thier crimes. The process of them being arrested was already started before Mapes "broke the news".

The biggest crime here was exposing our dirty laundry to the world.
Do you mean these things are OK so long as world knows nothing about it ? You should read more of the report so can debate more fully
 

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Fried Rice said:
Do you mean these things are OK so long as world knows nothing about it ? You should read more of the report so can debate more fully
No, I meant that it was a non-issue as it was already being dealt with.

The only folks that could have even remotely took this as 'news' was the enemy or folks against the war. The enemy needed an excuse to cut off more American heads and they did. The folks against the war were looking (and still are) for more scandals or atrocities.

While is was not a "good" thing, it still is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been done against many of the soldiers in the alliance when they were/are captured.
 

Fried Rice

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vauge said:
No, I meant that it was a non-issue as it was already being dealt with.

The only folks that could have even remotely took this as 'news' was the enemy or folks against the war. The enemy needed an excuse to cut off more American heads and they did. The folks against the war were looking (and still are) for more scandals or atrocities.

While is was not a "good" thing, it still is nothing compared to the atrocities that have been done against many of the soldiers in the alliance when they were/are captured.
Vague you seem to say its OK for US to act in this way as other parties do same - that should not be the case. USA was meant to be pro human rights and in favour of fair tratment for all. You cannot pick and choose in this way. And for the world this was very big news and expose the true nature of USA "Freedom"
 

Arch Enemy

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Fried,


I don't think you're getting vagues point. He is simply saying that Yes, it was bad that a couple of American soldiers, under their own power, decided to abuse Iraqi prisoners but before this whole topic (Iraqi Prisoner abuse) went public our military leaders were already pressing charges against these individuals for their role in the abuse.

Why a news paper article would talk so negatively about America and not any other nation is beyond me. I say you don't know anything about the country unless you actually have lived in the Country. This whole gap between whites and blacks doesn't exist anymore... the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) have already closed the gap between whites and blacks in America. They have their own personal minority scholarships which will greatly increase the amount of college educated blacks in the coming years. Not to mention one of our highest leaders is a black female. The NAACP have created Parks and Recreations to keep blacks off the streets. My school is 90% black and I have no problem with the people who go to my school.. they are friends.

Vague also pointed out that this was a source of fuel for those against the war and the enemy. This fuel makes the enemy more willing to cut off the heads of hostages they take in Iraq, while only around 50 hostages have been executed that is still a large number.

I am seriously sorry if this sounds self-centered or rude, but I believe that China is sounding "thick-headed" with only criticizing America.

Believe it or not, American media isn't so constricted around us Americans as you would think. I could easily go to Websites hosted in the United States and known about and find Beheading videos, videos of cannibals, videos of executions of World War II and other by far gruesome topics.

If I had the choice to decide between a media where these gruesome photos and videos are freely shown.. to where the mainstream media blocks out these horrible things..

I'd pick the one not showing me these horrible images.
 

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:yt

Arch, excellent post!
 

Fried Rice

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Hello Arch - the report only mention the prisoner abuse at the begining - it goes on to discuss many other issues so hope you can take time to review.

USA / CIA prepares detialed reports on each country but you dont complain - why cant China or any other country do same ? China also prepare reports on other countries same as USA.

I think these issues avoid the main arguements of the report - talking about the report and not what is IN the report. The report is quite long as so much abuse to report but here is short version -

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/04/content_421542.htm

It also discuss poverty, racial discrimination, poor position of woman and children

Fried Rice wishes USA would open its eyes
 

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Thanks for your comments and looking at report. i think even if these few inaccuracies are corect. the body of report is correct. i dont think your press is free - it is controlled by a select few and has extreme right wing bias. It swallows lies about the war in Iraq etc - our own media is also selective but we already know that here...
I think Fried Rice has been watching Dan Rather.
 

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Squawker said:
I think Fried Rice has been watching Dan Rather.
Nah, he has been listening to Putin.
 

Arch Enemy

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Fried Rice said:
Fried Rice wishes USA would open its eyes
I will defiantly read the article in more detail instead of scanning it. I'd like to know, by your ideas, in what areas, and how should the United States open it's eyes? Government should open it's eyes or should the people?

I know alot of people expect that America should live up to it's name of being 100% "free", but if we become 100% free we are just letting Terrorists (the ones who dislike us because of religious differences) roam free.

You're defiantly correct, America has issues dealing with Human rights.. but so does every other country in the world. I feel this is because there is no good government leaders are those who seek power (which is why they took leadership to begin with) and once they seek power they want more power and if they give 100% freedom to the people they reign over, that limits their power. This Fried, you have to agree with.
 

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vauge said:
I stopped reading after this:

"In 2004 the atrocity of US troops abusing Iraqi POWs exposed the dark side of human rights performance of the United States. The scandal shocked the humanity and was condemned by the international community."

What scandal? A group of soldiers took it upon themselves to humiliate some terrorists in prison. They have been or are still in process of being convicted for thier crimes. The process of them being arrested was already started before Mapes "broke the news".

The biggest crime here was exposing our dirty laundry to the world.
I'm not sure that the abuse isn't more widespread. Not just in Iraq but Afghanistan aswell.
We'll see if this has legs:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=625909

I think its more than a few bad apples:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3868-2005Mar26?language=printer

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi...army_says_prison_deaths_are_homicides?mode=PF

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/03/27/us_admits_wider_abuse_of_iraqis?mode=PF

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/news/nation/11235395.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F2091FF83F5B0C758EDDAA0894DD404482

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=43905

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-abuse23mar23,1,4958137,print.story

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=8000617

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...articles/2005/03/29/american_homicide?mode=PF

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/opinion/28herbert.html?hp=&pagewanted=print&position=

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8029639

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=17852&c=206

most of these stories are quite current.
I think there might be something more systemic.
 

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:applaud Excellent researching. Excellent post, excellent documentation.

I would like to site a few quotes from these cited. (not same source)
''We are equally determined to get to the truth, wherever the evidence may lead us and regardless of how long it takes," said Chris Grey, a spokesman for the Army.


The committee also called for better training of British troops on the treatment of prisoners to prevent further abuses of inmates like those seen in Iraq since the conflict.


In war there has always been, and always will be bad apples.
As long as they are being dealt with, then we are moving forward.

Our constitution grant our enemies no freedoms.
 

Fried Rice

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Arch Enemy said:
I will defiantly read the article in more detail instead of scanning it. I'd like to know, by your ideas, in what areas, and how should the United States open it's eyes? Government should open it's eyes or should the people?

I know alot of people expect that America should live up to it's name of being 100% "free", but if we become 100% free we are just letting Terrorists (the ones who dislike us because of religious differences) roam free.

You're defiantly correct, America has issues dealing with Human rights.. but so does every other country in the world. I feel this is because there is no good government leaders are those who seek power (which is why they took leadership to begin with) and once they seek power they want more power and if they give 100% freedom to the people they reign over, that limits their power. This Fried, you have to agree with.
Dear Arch - i mean people in USA should understand that while their own govt plays "world freedom fighter" it systematically denies freedoms to its own people, as this report shows. Instead of fighting all these so called wars on terror - why isnt it looking after its own people ?
 

Fried Rice

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myshkin said:
If that was Iraqi prisoners doing that to USA troops...you can imagine...but USa just sticks head in sand and blames "just few people" or says this is just part of war. So much for the so called warriors of freedom. No ask what these poor guys in pic did - probably just some driver or army cook.
 

Fried Rice

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Arch Enemy said:
Take a look at this Fried Rice.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/press/15780.shtml
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/hr_facts.html#Torture

seems like China isn't much better off, Hypocrisy?
Dear Arch - i dont that say China doesn't have problem. My point is that USA is so quick to condemm other countries (include China) yet fails to acknowledge its own inequalities. This isnt just about the troops, but women, racial etc. The govt has no problem to rush in to iraq and spend billions of dollar, but offers only small solutions to inequality in USA
 

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Your pretty much correct there Fried;

I am just tired of people blaming America for Georgey's mistakes, alot of people hate us because of him. I personally despise him I think that he didn't know what he was getting himself into and that he is fueling the anger against America.

I wonder if you foreigners will like us better when George Bush is out of power..

Also fried I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that many of those people who did the abuse were reserves. Reserves are the type that join the army thinking if conflict arises they'll not have to do anything, so when it did and they were sent out they were mad (they like reaping the benefits of being in the military) so they resorted to this humiliation to take out their frustration.

It's damned true, we have alot of racist people here in America, many of which are poorly educated in politics nor do they know anything about historical backgrounds of our relations with foreign powers. So when September 11th happened, that enraged their racist behaviors and they started taking it out on Muslims.. I think this maybe a desired "payback".

As far as Whites vs Blacks, that is totally untrue. Most of those murders are in large cities where gangs (Bloods and the Crypts) are very powerful. I know it sounds racist on my part that blacks are doing more murders than whites.. but I believe it to be the truth.. that's "how they roll". The police interfering with these gang wars just bring more Chaos to the frontier and not only are 2 people dead but 2 more cops die as well.

Like I said before, the gap between whites and blacks is closing. NAACP WILL make it so this gap is forever closed but never forgotten.

I simply posted those two sites because I wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides. No one is right and America is starting to believe it isn't the freedom force it's leaders had intended to do.. heck we're built on Genocide.

You bring up a really good point about USA condemning other countries before itself. What you see of America is different from what I see, before our big campaign against the Terrorists of the world began there was a big discussion between Human rights in America and fighting Terrorism abroad. America is the equivalent of a 14 year old girl, she can multi-task like no ones business.. talking on her cell phone (working with Human Rights) and doing her homework (dealing with terrorism) though she may not be doing a good job on either of the subjects, it is getting done. Something else that isn't apparent to many foreigners is the Human Rights organizations here in America.. these are always overlooked.. but in my opinion they do more for Foreign Human Rights then for American Human Rights.
 
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myshkin

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vauge said:
:applaud Excellent researching. Excellent post, excellent documentation.

I would like to site a few quotes from these cited. (not same source)
''We are equally determined to get to the truth, wherever the evidence may lead us and regardless of how long it takes," said Chris Grey, a spokesman for the Army.


The committee also called for better training of British troops on the treatment of prisoners to prevent further abuses of inmates like those seen in Iraq since the conflict.


In war there has always been, and always will be bad apples.
As long as they are being dealt with, then we are moving forward.

Our constitution grant our enemies no freedoms.
I agree that it is inevitable that in war there will be bad apples.
It is also inevitable that in war there will be civillian casualties.
These are considerations that need to be seriously addressed by citizens before consenting to war.
Its part of the package. When you make a decision and take responsibility of the consequences this is part of the equation.
I understand that our constitution does not grant any rights to non-citizens but our Constitution does allow Congress to bind the US to treaty agreements our Congress has bound us to the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter. Towards that end they are the 'law of the land'.
 

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myshkin said:
I understand that our constitution does not grant any rights to non-citizens but our Constitution does allow Congress to bind the US to treaty agreements our Congress has bound us to the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter. Towards that end they are the 'law of the land'.
Absolutely.

We must also realize that it is no different than our current system of justice. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. We cannot arrest a man for "thinking" of murder. As such, we cannot blame the entirety of the military for the bad apples doing horrible things to prisoners. Every cited incident above has in it or another news snippet about the same topi c will prove that we are correcting those wrongs.
 

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I think (not on the same level) but like the German people and left-over soldiers of the Nazi regime, it will even out and their terrible actions will be forgotten by all execpt the ones directly impacted by this.
 

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Arch Enemy said:
Your pretty much correct there Fried;

I am just tired of people blaming America for Georgey's mistakes, alot of people hate us because of him. I personally despise him I think that he didn't know what he was getting himself into and that he is fueling the anger against America.

I wonder if you foreigners will like us better when George Bush is out of power..

ACTUALLY THE WORLD IS STILL IN SHOCK THAT YOU VOTE IN BACK TO POWER. I THINK BEFORE THAT PEOPLE HAD SOME FAITH IN USA PEOPLE...

Also fried I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that many of those people who did the abuse were reserves. Reserves are the type that join the army thinking if conflict arises they'll not have to do anything, so when it did and they were sent out they were mad (they like reaping the benefits of being in the military) so they resorted to this humiliation to take out their frustration.

IF THAT IS TRUE THAT THEY LET 'MAN OFF THE STREET' LOOK AFTER THE SO CALLED TERRORIST, THEN THEY CANNOT REALLY BE A BIG TERRORIST THREAT.

It's damned true, we have alot of racist people here in America, many of which are poorly educated in politics nor do they know anything about historical backgrounds of our relations with foreign powers. So when September 11th happened, that enraged their racist behaviors and they started taking it out on Muslims.. I think this maybe a desired "payback".

SEEMS THERE IS NO MONEY TO TRY AND EDUCATE THE POOR PEOPLE AS ALL SPENT ON MILITARY. YOUR GOVT DID GOOD JOB OF LYING TO PEOPLE THAT THIS WAS MUSLIM PROBLEM NOT SAUDI ARABIA PROBLEM

As far as Whites vs Blacks, that is totally untrue. Most of those murders are in large cities where gangs (Bloods and the Crypts) are very powerful. I know it sounds racist on my part that blacks are doing more murders than whites.. but I believe it to be the truth.. that's "how they roll". The police interfering with these gang wars just bring more Chaos to the frontier and not only are 2 people dead but 2 more cops die as well.

YOU NEED TO ASK WHY THIS IS THE CASE, NOT JUST ACCEPT THAT THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE. THIS IS REAL DENIAL OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN USA - FAILURE TO ADDRESS SUCH INEQUALITY.

Like I said before, the gap between whites and blacks is closing. NAACP WILL make it so this gap is forever closed but never forgotten.

I simply posted those two sites because I wanted to point out the hypocrisy on both sides. No one is right and America is starting to believe it isn't the freedom force it's leaders had intended to do.. heck we're built on Genocide.

LOOK AT YOUR NATIVE POPULATION. I BELIEVE THEY ARE STILL TREATED AS OUTCAST GROUP.

You bring up a really good point about USA condemning other countries before itself. What you see of America is different from what I see, before our big campaign against the Terrorists of the world began there was a big discussion between Human rights in America and fighting Terrorism abroad. America is the equivalent of a 14 year old girl, she can multi-task like no ones business.. talking on her cell phone (working with Human Rights) and doing her homework (dealing with terrorism) though she may not be doing a good job on either of the subjects, it is getting done. Something else that isn't apparent to many foreigners is the Human Rights organizations here in America.. these are always overlooked.. but in my opinion they do more for Foreign Human Rights then for American Human Rights.
I DONT KNOW ABOUT YOUR INTERNAL GROUPS. BUT TO OUTSIDE WORLD IT JUST LOOKS LIKE HYPOCRACY.
 
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