DACA For The Wall?

[Grand Mal]

Years ago when Obama and the rest of the Democrats wanted a wall I was against it.Now that Trump is President I want the wall.

Remember that movie 'Grumpy Old Men? "You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first."

 

[Phys251]

Why exactly should the congresspeople who are reasonable capitulate into supporting a wall that:

1. Does not address the real issues;
2. Does not solve the real issues;
3. Is being pushed on us by a president who is negotiating in bad faith;
4. And acting in bad faith;
5. And threatening to declare a "national emergency" over a non-emergency;
6. Not to mention his blatant lying about who would pay for it.

tRump needs to get his **** together and at least pretend to be the President for once. That means putting on his big boy britches and acting like a grown-up for once.

Until ALL of these things happen, not just no to the wall, but hell no.

(Let's see how many laysplaining responses we get to this post by people who didn't even read it properly.)

 

[Chomsky]

Full comprehensive immigration reform with the wall and DACA a PART of that package. Let's get this issue done and put to bed for 20 years.



Deport them to where..... many DACA people were brought here at age 1-5, not by their choice They have no skills, including language, to survive in another country. I am curious where your basic sense of humanity may be that you could even utter such a thing.

How about we just deal with all aspects of immigration at once.

It's too bad the shutdown can't be used to forge a comprehensive immigration deal. I'm with you, on this. Unfortunately when Trump gives (likely via a faux national emergency that the courts stop), if the Dems hold-out for anything more the political tide will turn against them (I believe).

 

[Chomsky]

Trump had his chance and blew it. Now he should go pound sand until 2020.

/thread

 

[Rogue Valley]

That was the deal everyone agreed on in June. Trump even expanded the number of DACA resolutions that the Democrats asked for. However, in the end the deal had to be shot down because agreeing to a border deal might have been seen as a win for Trump and, without regard to whether a deal is good for the American people or not, if it so much as might be good for Trump it can't be allowed to happen.

Trump reneged on DACA/Dreamers. Too bad. We could have avoided all this and the concrete/steel (no one even knows) sections would already be going up.

 

[Rogue Valley]

I wouldn't assume the courts will [eventually] overturn any Trump "emergency decree". But court action certainly would slow it down, possibly to 2020.

 

[Chomsky]

That part I find impossible to believe.. I seriously doubt the parents and the rest of their family gave up their native language the second they came into country illegally and just started speaking English. If anything English would be the 2nd language to those illegals who were allegedly brought here as little kids, not their primary language.Thanks to the pro-illegals in office a lot of stuff is bi-lingual so that people who come here don't have to learn English. So it is lie to say these so called dreamers don't know their native language. I am surprise more people don't call out pro-illegals when they try to spew the lie that these so called daca kids don't know Spanish.

To the bolded:

Technically, but not really. My experience is those immigrating as young kids through the late teens, tend to adopt English as their first language and gain full functional proficiency. The younger they are, the better their proficiency.

 

[upsideguy]

That part I find impossible to believe.. I seriously doubt the parents and the rest of their family gave up their native language the second they came into country illegally and just started speaking English. If anything English would be the 2nd language to those illegals who were allegedly brought here as little kids, not their primary language.Thanks to the pro-illegals in office a lot of stuff is bi-lingual so that people who come here don't have to learn English. So it is lie to say these so called dreamers don't know their native language. I am surprise more people don't call out pro-illegals when they try to spew the lie that these so called daca kids don't know Spanish.

Rather than "believing" why not take a little time to move toward "understanding".... obviously you do not know, you are merely letting your bias' could your judgement. So, let's educate ourselves, shall we.... I learned a few things from this cites, I am sure you will too.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...daca-recipients-dreamers-and-trump/627676001/
https://cis.org/Vaughan/Research-Dreamers-Contradicts-Public-Image
https://www.facebook.com/pbimmigrat...mers-after-two-years-of-daca/260300037496918/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-dreamers-meme/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/1/17054546/immigration-crime-dreamers-daca-gangs


It seems that 8% of dreamers speak only english; 63% are bi-lingual. They complete college at about the same rate as native born Americans, commit less crime, serve in the military at about the same rate. They do drop out of high school at 3x rate of native borns.

Bear in mind to many DACA participants and those eligible for DACA, the United States is all they know. They were brought up here, educated here, socialized here. They likely have no better skills to assimilate in El Salvador than you or I. If they 16 or less, they may often lack the skills to even earn a legitimate living.

There, now you are educated. Now you are in position to make meaningful contributions to this discussion.

 

[Chomsky]

There was a time when this may have been possible but thanks to Trump that time has passed and the window of opportunity is now shut.

I believe that's an astute observation.

 

[Rogue Valley]

Either way, I believe Trumps wall is a colossal waste of taxpayer money. A legacy/vanity solution that is easily thwarted.

 

[Lutherf]

Trump reneged on DACA/Dreamers. Too bad. We could have avoided all this and the concrete/steel (no one even knows) sections would already be going up.

Care to expand on that a little bit? He was pretty much against approving or expanding the DACA program and still is. Up through February of 2018 he'd put the kibosh on a few different DACA deals. However, when we got to June of 2018 he not only offered to provide a path to citizenship for the 800k DACA beneficiaries the Democrats wanted but was willing to bump that number to 1.6 Million provided he got funding for the wall, stopped the visa lottery and restricted "chain migration". At that point it was the Democrats (and 41 Trump hating Republicans) who ****canned the deal. It's more than a little disingenuous to lay all this at Trump's feet and, frankly, Trump has showed himself to be FAR more flexible in these issues than Democrats have.

 

[Chomsky]

The other "pillars" were stopping the visa lottery and limiting who could be sponsored to immediate family not including ancestors. The idea was to open up more visas for applicants from specific nations and to inhibit chain migration. Both of those "pillars" are good things and important to controlling the availability of visas.

Well how "good" those points are, is open to debate. But I think it's fair to say an agreement in principle was established, that fell apart based upon the operational details.

 

[MrWonka]

just wondering what both sides think

What Trump and Republicans are doing to families and children of migrants is immoral and unethical. You don't get to hurt innocent children and then say, "tell you what I'll stop hurting them if you let me do something else that's stupid."

If you go down that road they'll just start doing some other disgustingly abhorrent things next year and demand we give them what they want in order to get them to stop.

Trump and Republicans are trying to negotiate the way Terrorists negotiate, and as long as that's going to be their m.o. then Democrats cannot negotiate with terrorists.

 

[upsideguy]

It's too bad the shutdown can't be used to forge a comprehensive immigration deal. I'm with you, on this. Unfortunately when Trump gives (likely via a faux national emergency that the courts stop), if the Dems hold-out for anything more the political tide will turn against them (I believe).

I am convinced Trump doesn't really want the wall. This whole episode is just that .... another episode of Celebrity Apprentice President: The Wall.

Trump is enjoying center stage carrying the banner of those (I will make no disparaging comments here) who think this wall is going to solve their problem (no disparaging comments here either). If Trump really wanted the wall, he would have traded for it. There was a deal to be had, as evidenced of a year ago.

No, what we are watching is a twist on the dog chasing the car. Its all about the chase. The problem is, however, the chase has taken him too far from home. Now, Trump has two exits that give him the illusion that he went to the matt for this people: 1) let a veto happen, but I think that actually makes Mitch look like the bad guy or 2) declare an emergency and let the courts veto him, which hopefully they do lest we have all kinds of problems in the future.

Trump doesn't fundamentally believe anything except the conspiracy theories (which is typically of insecure guys). He loves playing the omnipresent, omnipotent, POTUS on TV, however. The hour is almost up, the episode has to end.... unless, of course, this is a cliffhanger.

I worry, however, that what I am really watching is the Twilight Zone.

 

[Chomsky]

I am not going to support something beyond "wall". I would like to see a better detailed plan of the wall or barrier or whatever it is today, a full agreement from the border landowners to take the land, and more emphasis on internal immigration reform.

All fair points.

But for the purposes of my responses in this thread, I see the "Wall" as a metaphorical concept. So some areas will be built, some areas won't. It may be a fence in some areas, it may be electronic surveillance in others, it may be nothing in places, etc., etc. I'm fine with that. We all know no real continuous wall will be built. That's why I have no problem getting DACA for it.

 

[joko104]

In 2020 Democratic Presidential candidates should wear the Mexican flag as their lapel pin.

 

[NeverTrump]

That was the deal everyone agreed on in June. Trump even expanded the number of DACA resolutions that the Democrats asked for. However, in the end the deal had to be shot down because agreeing to a border deal might have been seen as a win for Trump and, without regard to whether a deal is good for the American people or not, if it so much as might be good for Trump it can't be allowed to happen.

You seem to forget that Trump didn't even know what DACA was until some idiot on the right told him that his base wouldn't like it so he backed off.

It was Trump who last fall canceled the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, which was begun in the Obama administration to provide temporary protection to dreamers.

‘No more DACA deal,’ Trump says as he threatens to ‘stop’ NAFTA if Mexico doesn’t better secure border

TRUMP DOESN’T KNOW WHAT DACA IS, BUT HE WANTS IT DEAD

 

[Chomsky]

I wouldn't assume the courts will [eventually] overturn any Trump "emergency decree". But court action certainly would slow it down, possibly to 2020.

Actually I believe it's likely the courts do rule against Trump. But that doesn't detract from your second point, if I'm wrong. The eminent domain alone, will take quite a few years.

 

[joko104]

All fair points.

But for the purposes of my responses in this thread, I see the "Wall" as a metaphorical concept. So some areas will be built, some areas won't. It may be a fence in some areas, it may be electronic surveillance in others, it may be nothing in places, etc., etc. I'm fine with that. We all know no real continuous wall will be built. That's why I have no problem getting DACA for it.

DACA as Democrats propose it is essentially an open border. Is the locks on your doors and windows on your house and car door locks "metaphorical?" Eliminate them and just put up a security camera. No one, ever, would go past any security camera. They should only use security cameras for all prisons as walls and fences are totally worthless and a waste of money.

 

[Grand Mal]

/thread

Seriously, the Republicans had the opportunity of a generation and squandered it. They licked the frosting off the top- passed the tax break and seated the SCOTUS judges-and now they want the Democrats to do the heavy lifting.
Mixed metaphors aside, the whole scenario just reeks of selfish focus. I'm convinced this wall thing is so front-and-centre because some contractors are salivating at the fortune to be made off a government job that yuge. $5B? That's just in-the-door money. The new bridge in San Fran cost 6 point something billion and the price of steel went up 25% in one day last fall. Hell, somebody would make a fortune just housing, feeding and transporting the crews. When you look at the logistics of building that wall think of a very expensive pipeline, not a bridge or building.
Sorry about the length but you got me started...

 

[jamesrage]

Rather than "believing" why not take a little time to move toward "understanding".... obviously you do not know, you are merely letting your bias' could your judgement. So, let's educate ourselves, shall we.... I learned a few things from this cites, I am sure you will too.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...daca-recipients-dreamers-and-trump/627676001/
https://cis.org/Vaughan/Research-Dreamers-Contradicts-Public-Image
https://www.facebook.com/pbimmigrat...mers-after-two-years-of-daca/260300037496918/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-dreamers-meme/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/1/17054546/immigration-crime-dreamers-daca-gangs


It seems that 8% of dreamers speak only english; 63% are bi-lingual. They complete college at about the same rate as native born Americans, commit less crime, serve in the military at about the same rate. They do drop out of high school at 3x rate of native borns.

Bear in mind to many DACA participants and those eligible for DACA, the United States is all they know. They were brought up here, educated here, socialized here. They likely have no better skills to assimilate in El Salvador than you or I. If they 16 or less, they may often lack the skills to even earn a legitimate living.

There, now you are educated. Now you are in position to make meaningful contributions to this discussion.

I am sure illegal alien ass kissers will claim that kids allegedly brought here as kids and grew up in Spanish speaking house holds somehow don't know spanish. I don't think the parents got a copy of Bablefish or Rosetta stone and learned proficient English and started only speaking English the second they hopped across the border.

 

[Lutherf]

Well how "good" those points are, is open to debate. But I think it's fair to say an agreement in principle was established, that fell apart based upon the operational details.

That is definitely fair to say. The bottom line is that, on the whole, it was a reasonable deal which gave all parties something they wanted and didn't take away anything they were particularly hung up on. The media was even starting to come around and get behind the deal. However, once one of the talking heads explained that this could be a big "win" for Trump the whole thing blew up. Democrats didn't want Trump to have a win going into the midterms and 41 Republicans who generally oppose Trump voted against the bill in hope that it would ingratiate them to their constituents rather than fix the problems the country faces. FWIW, many of those Republicans who voted AGAINST fixing the immigration issues lost their races in November.

 

[Chomsky]

Rather than "believing" why not take a little time to move toward "understanding".... obviously you do not know, you are merely letting your bias' could your judgement. So, let's educate ourselves, shall we.... I learned a few things from this cites, I am sure you will too.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/new...daca-recipients-dreamers-and-trump/627676001/
https://cis.org/Vaughan/Research-Dreamers-Contradicts-Public-Image
https://www.facebook.com/pbimmigrat...mers-after-two-years-of-daca/260300037496918/
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/facts-about-dreamers-meme/
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/1/17054546/immigration-crime-dreamers-daca-gangs


It seems that 8% of dreamers speak only english; 63% are bi-lingual. They complete college at about the same rate as native born Americans, commit less crime, serve in the military at about the same rate. They do drop out of high school at 3x rate of native borns.

Bear in mind to many DACA participants and those eligible for DACA, the United States is all they know. They were brought up here, educated here, socialized here. They likely have no better skills to assimilate in El Salvador than you or I. If they 16 or less, they may often lack the skills to even earn a legitimate living.

There, now you are educated. Now you are in position to make meaningful contributions to this discussion.

To the bolded:

That's a sad statistic, and probably the main issue to be addressed in order to promote full & successful assimilation of the next generation.

Though I would argue that statistic is most likely due to socio-economic conditions, rather than cultural. The (Euro) immigrants I grew-up with tended to value education for their children. Not all of them, but many if not most. Which is something to see, considering many of the immigrant families I knew where among the least able to afford it. But they worked hard, scrimped, saved, and pushed their kids to study hard in order to get scholarships.

 

[Chomsky]

I am convinced Trump doesn't really want the wall. This whole episode is just that .... another episode of Celebrity Apprentice President: The Wall.

Trump is enjoying center stage carrying the banner of those (I will make no disparaging comments here) who think this wall is going to solve their problem (no disparaging comments here either). If Trump really wanted the wall, he would have traded for it. There was a deal to be had, as evidenced of a year ago.

No, what we are watching is a twist on the dog chasing the car. Its all about the chase. The problem is, however, the chase has taken him too far from home. Now, Trump has two exits that give him the illusion that he went to the matt for this people: 1) let a veto happen, but I think that actually makes Mitch look like the bad guy or 2) declare an emergency and let the courts veto him, which hopefully they do lest we have all kinds of problems in the future.

Trump doesn't fundamentally believe anything except the conspiracy theories (which is typically of insecure guys). He loves playing the omnipresent, omnipotent, POTUS on TV, however. The hour is almost up, the episode has to end.... unless, of course, this is a cliffhanger.

I worry, however, that what I am really watching is the Twilight Zone.

I agree wholeheartedly! And very well written. I wish I wrote it.

And my vote for the likely outcome, is your exit #2.

 

[Chomsky]

DACA as Democrats propose it is essentially an open border. Is the locks on your doors and windows on your house and car door locks "metaphorical?" Eliminate them and just put up a security camera. No one, ever, would go past any security camera. They should only use security cameras for all prisons as walls and fences are totally worthless and a waste of money.

My house is not a border. You're using an incorrect analogy, here.