cutting through the bullpoop (1 Viewer)

[mikhail]

Lets face it are beliefs cant co exist, and globalisation is happening so it comes down to whos right the western world or the middle east. yes your gonna call me ignourant but you have to admit the beliefs dont fit together. So the real question is whos side you on ?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by mikhail
Lets face it are beliefs cant co exist, and globalisation is happening so it comes down to whos right the western world or the middle east. yes your gonna call me ignourant but you have to admit the beliefs dont fit together. So the real question is whos side you on ?

The problem is not between east and west. It is between Americans and Corporate Americans.

 

[vibeeleven]

Are you reading the right thread?

 

[cnredd]

Lets face it are beliefs cant co exist, and globalisation is happening so it comes down to whos right the western world or the middle east. yes your gonna call me ignourant but you have to admit the beliefs dont fit together. So the real question is whos side you on ?

from a previous post of mine...

The main reason for this clash is that the world is becoming "smaller" due to the internet, world trade, and global communications...

As long as they didn't have a notion as to what was going on in the rest of the world, they could live in their 6th century world...

But because of the global community, they are being forced to catch up, which is something they aren't really capable of due to their stagnation...Instead of jumping on the train and opening their eyes, they want to look internally to the past and try to grasp what they know instead of realizing that the headway they could make will be better for them in the long run...

The problem is "jumping on the train" is not a "yes or no" option...The answer WILL be "yes"...Technology is going way too fast for a whole civilization to be left behind...

It's just a matter of getting them to stop kicking and screaming on their way to their new school...

 

[millsy]

from a previous post of mine...

It's not true that the two beliefs cannot live side by side. There are many examples world wide of Muslim and Arab people living in peace (yes, yes, not without a few problems here and there) beside westerners. The problem isn't east vs. west, it's rich vs. poor. The reason why people of different beliefs can live side by side in the developed world is because of the middle class.

In the middle east there is unimaginable wealth right beside unimaginable poverty.


It's a lot easier to convince someone to blow themselves up when they have no future.

 

[mikhail]

Beliefs can co exist but there is a limit to the differences there can be in order to keep peace.

Im not prepared to compramise on things like freedom of speech one bit.

Also the western world has gay marriages equal rights for women should we limit this to make the middle east happy?A

Secondly there isnt mass suport for any government we would like in these countries e.g uranium enrichment is popular among the iranian public.

Also the public in the middleastern countries are in favour of democracy but not the seperation of the religion and government and law.

I dont think they are prepared to compramise on these things.

But im still kinda hopeful they will eventually come round to are way of thinking im not saying its perfect but i do believe at least domestically its the greater good.

 

[millsy]

Beliefs can co exist but there is a limit to the differences there can be in order to keep peace.

Im not prepared to compramise on things like freedom of speech one bit.

Also the western world has gay marriages equal rights for women should we limit this to make the middle east happy?A

Secondly there isnt mass suport for any government we would like in these countries e.g uranium enrichment is popular among the iranian public.

Also the public in the middleastern countries are in favour of democracy but not the seperation of the religion and government and law.

I dont think they are prepared to compramise on these things.

But im still kinda hopeful they will eventually come round to are way of thinking im not saying its perfect but i do believe at least domestically its the greater good.

Well we should never compromise on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights anywhere. Now, how to get them to change this is a matter for another debate. But that doesn't mean that the societies can't co exist peacefully.

 

[cnredd]

It's not true that the two beliefs cannot live side by side.

I never said otherwise, so skip the melodramatic angle and refrain from putting words in my mouth...

There are many examples world wide of Muslim and Arab people living in peace (yes, yes, not without a few problems here and there) beside westerners.

Read the original post...the subject was the Middle East, not Islam...

When I said they were stuck in the 6th century, I was referring to the Middle East, NOT "world wide"...

There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world...we are not talking about all of them...Just the ones in a certain stagnant region who perverts their religion...

The problem isn't east vs. west, it's rich vs. poor. The reason why people of different beliefs can live side by side in the developed world is because of the middle class.

Or because the Mullahs tell them that everyone who doesn't think like them are infidels and should die...

In the middle east there is unimaginable wealth right beside unimaginable poverty.

It's a lot easier to convince someone to blow themselves up when they have no future.

True, but this has nothing to do with anything...It's the Mullahs and clerics telling them what to do...If they had freedom of expression over there, they'd hear opposing points of views and question their religious leaders...For the ones that try that now, they get imprisonment or worse...

 

[millsy]

I never said otherwise, so skip the melodramatic angle and refrain from putting words in my mouth...

Read the original post...the subject was the Middle East, not Islam...

When I said they were stuck in the 6th century, I was referring to the Middle East, NOT "world wide"...

There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world...we are not talking about all of them...Just the ones in a certain stagnant region who perverts their religion...

Or because the Mullahs tell them that everyone who doesn't think like them are infidels and should die...

True, but this has nothing to do with anything...It's the Mullahs and clerics telling them what to do...If they had freedom of expression over there, they'd hear opposing points of views and question their religious leaders...For the ones that try that now, they get imprisonment or worse...

I apologize for the confusion, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.
when I said that the beliefs can coexist, I was rebutting Mikhail when he said that they could not.


I understand that you were talking about the middle east and not the rest of the world. And again, I apologize for not making myself more clear.

I was trying to say that hope can be drawn from the places in the world where many beliefs live side by side.

Also, those examples can be used as a model of this possiblity.

 

[millsy]

True, but this has nothing to do with anything...It's the Mullahs and clerics telling them what to do...If they had freedom of expression over there, they'd hear opposing points of views and question their religious leaders...For the ones that try that now, they get imprisonment or worse...

I disagree that the money has nothing to with anything.

It is the lack of money that allows the Mullahs to do what they do. If people had televisions, if people had even money to buy books, that job would be impossible. They could keep it up for a while, but eventually the people would break that oppression.

 

[mikhail]

Im not saying beliefs cant co-exist but i feel the current situation is like a kkk member having a black housemate the only way they can live in harmony is for the kkk guy to scale down what he feels but imagine how difficult that would be.

 

[millsy]

Im not saying beliefs cant co-exist but i feel the current situation is like a kkk member having a black housemate the only way they can live in harmony is for the kkk guy to scale down what he feels but imagine how difficult that would be.

You're right it wouldn't work. And there's nothing that could be done to change it. The best thing to do is make sure the "kkk guy's" kids get a better education than the one he had. Again, I feel that a lot of racism comes from people being poor and looking to blame someone. The two things that I believe can get rid of a lot of similar situations are education and hope. A lot of kkk guys don't have alot of either, and a lot of people in the middle east don't have any.

 

[Gardener]

The original symbol for Italian fascism was chosen well. Sticks may be fairly innocuous until bundled together tightly and with that blade attached, and it is the totalitarian nature of Islamism that presents the danger to Western society. When people adhere to rigid belief systems and show a militant intolerance for other belief systems, they are not only a danger, but more powerful than their numbers might represent because of the tightness with which they are bound. IMO, this is why the Nazis succeeded in the 20's and 30's and why Islamism poses such a danger to Europe. Especially when one takes into account current levels of procreation, it is entirely possible that Europe as we know it may cease to exist within several decades.

So, I'd say "no" -- certain beliefs cannot coexist. The irony of the matter as far as I see it, is that when the notion tolerance is placed upon such a pedestal that peopel do not qualify what they do and do not tolerate, those who do not tolerate much of anything are given free reign. Especially when the extreme intolerance is originating from a people with a different culture and skin color and the taboo of racism is such that people are afraid of being branded racist if they object to this extreme intolerance, then the possibility exists that they will be hoisted on their own petard if they do not learn the essential lesson of what tolerance is all about -- that one tolerates that which does not cause harm but stands up against that which does. You cannot simultaneously champion tolerance while looking the other way while others subvert the very notion, and so Europeans are at the crux of a dilemma. How do they promote their values when these very values are used to defeat them?

Seems to me that he very notion of "right" and left" in Europe may be experiencing something of a paradigm shift. Those in Holland who wish to preserve the traditional Dutch *liberal* values, for instance, are often branded as far right wingers while it is the left wing that stands in solidarity with an ideology that denies freedom to women and gay people and is completely antithetical to liberality. This isn't just ironic, but thoughtless, and until people really give a little more thought to the very belief systems they purport to uphold, they only play into the hands of those who stand against these belief systems.

 

[mikhail]

I feel the problem can be most clearly seen is through the reaction to the cartoons i think this shows how globalisation is bringing these differences in beliefs to boiling point.

How as a liberal societys are european nations supose have islamic beliefs imposed on them as if they are islamic. The fact is denmark is not an islamic country but it apprantly is not allowed to use images such as cartoons to express a viewbecause it goes against the koran which most danish people do not believe is the word of god. Sure newspapers change their minds to try and not upset people but usually people dont burn down embassys as the result of offensive cartoons.

This is why religion is seperate to the state because the bible the koran etc doesent change well not for a long time that is therefor they can never cover any event that happens.

I dont want war but i think everyone kinda feels like were in a bar getting more and more drunk and you know there a fight brewing.

 

[millsy]

I feel the problem can be most clearly seen is through the reaction to the cartoons i think this shows how globalisation is bringing these differences in beliefs to boiling point.

How as a liberal societys are european nations supose have islamic beliefs imposed on them as if they are islamic. The fact is denmark is not an islamic country but it apprantly is not allowed to use images such as cartoons to express a viewbecause it goes against the koran which most danish people do not believe is the word of god. Sure newspapers change their minds to try and not upset people but usually people dont burn down embassys as the result of offensive cartoons.

This is why religion is seperate to the state because the bible the koran etc doesent change well not for a long time that is therefor they can never cover any event that happens.

I dont want war but i think everyone kinda feels like were in a bar getting more and more drunk and you know there a fight brewing.

99% of the Muslims who actually saw the cartoons had little reaction to them. It was a few radical clerics that were able to convince their followers to riot.
If they start to step out of extreme poverty, and get a better education, it will be impossible for a few radicals to exert that kind of influence.

The riots over the cartoons were many many months after they were published.

 

[mikhail]

I dont think 99% had little reaction.

Doesent religion have the power to overide reason?

I also feel religion is such a powerful tool to control people the ways it can be interpretted that tolerance is impossible.

IM well aware most muslims are not radicals but to the radicals these muslims are non-believers the fact is the middle east is becoming increasingly islamic fundamentalist not the other way round.

I feel the iranian pm is a representative of the under educated majority definetly populist.I feel that also like the iraqi intelligentsia in the 1970s the iranian intelligentsia will help iran become strong but with a different end in mind.

 

[millsy]

I dont think 99% had little reaction.

99% of the Muslims who actually saw the cartoon.

Religion has a greater influence over people when they are poor, or under educated.

 

[aquapub]

The problem is not between east and west. It is between Americans and Corporate Americans.

The real problem here is between class warfare-obbsessed liberals who make everything about "evil" corporations (how dare they succeed) while siding with Islam, vs. Americans.

 

[millsy]

The real problem here is between class warfare-obbsessed liberals who make everything about "evil" corporations (how dare they succeed) while siding with Islam, vs. Americans.

Liberals don't see the battle as being against Islam, so there's no need to take either side there.

Certainly you're not claiming that the war on terror is America vs. Islam. That's Al Queda's stance, do you share their belief?

 

[vibeeleven]

99% of the Muslims who actually saw the cartoon.

Religion has a greater influence over people when it keeps them poor and uneducated.

Fixed it for ya.

 

[millsy]

Fixed it for ya.

I think both ways are accurate. Maybe you want to throw in some [brackets] around the word that you change, just so people know. :mrgreen:

 

[easyt65]

The problem is not between east and west. It is between Americans and Corporate Americans.

:shock:

Iran's President has recently given political voice to the thoughts of millions of Muslims around the world when he declared Iran would help usher in the world domination and rule by Muslims! While the Libs preach 'live and let live', wanting to buy Bin Laden a coke and 'sing to Allah in perfect harmony', there are millions of Islamic Extremists who want to cut your head off for no other reason than you are an Infadel and you BREATHE! They do not wish to co-exist. They do not want peace. Even Iran's President said he was determined to bring about Armagedon, by nuking Israel within the next 3 years, to usher in the return of the Muslim Mesiah!

Yet we are 'treated' to the 'It's all America's fault' crowd's explanation of how we are so evil and how everything is our fault! Why do I get the feeling that if you were alive during WWII that you would be explaining how our minding our own business at home had somehow insulted Germany and Japan. making them feel neglected to the point where they sought the attention of the world...or some other lame excuse about how we caused the war! :roll:

The die-hard libs, even after 9/11, will not get it until Zarqawi is sawing atthe backs of their necks on Al Jazeera TV, being broadcast from Times Square!

HAMAS, for example, believes all of Palestinse is Holy Land entrusted to the Palestenian people by God (Allah) and must be protected from ther 'infidels'. That means they want to kill all Non-Muslims (in the Middle East for now), which is why, even after getting their beloved Palestine back - to include the Gaza Strip, they demand Israel's total anihilation, that they do not have a right to exist, and targets Israel STILL with terrorist attacks! Cutting through the bullpoop, as in the title of the thread, Modern Day Islam has bastardized the peaceful teachings of Muhammed into BS-ladden brainwashing garbage, a total LIE regarding Muhammed's teaching, in order to call for and justify a genocidal war on every other race/religeon other than the Muslim faith. Many of the so-called true Muslims who say they do not follow that Islamic Extremism STILL do not voice to their opposition to such SLANDER of Muhammed's teaching! If mishandling the Quran is so horrible, then why isn't totally changing the entire teachings of Muhammed in order to justify a war based on made up, false teachings. Muhammed was a man of peace. Zarqawi and Bin Laden should be put to death according to their own religeon for the Blasphemy they have turned Muhammed's teaching into!

Yet it is their hatred for Non-Muslims and the desire to eliminate - KILL - them all that is the problem, no matter what Anti-American cr@p you want to spew!