Curious about Christianity?

[Gibberish]

If you guys who are agnostics and atheists want to become Christians and be like Jesus...

Get up in the morning, go to work, and smile at people. Make a coworker feel good about themselves. Do a kind deed for someone that has never asked you to. Compliment someone. Give just a little bit of your money to someone who might be a little more needy. Give of yourself to others and you'll be more of a Christian than you think.

Actually you would be just a good person. You can do all the things you just said and be any religion. Jesus was not the only messiah or prophet to teach love for all people.

As history teaches us, you will be Christian if you try to convert that person after doing the things stated above and if they fail to convert explain to them how they are going to suffer for eternity in a fiery damnation even though they might be the nicest and most peaceful person.

 

[Iriemon]

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Yes, he could have just forgiven him...but forgiveness without some kind of recognition that damage has been done is dishonest. A wrong demands that something must be done to make it right.

And cannot God decide what must be done to make it right without killing lambs?

If you were in a car accident, forgiving the other driver wouldn't fix your car. I said before God is holy...another word that can be used to describe that is "perfect." Since God is holy (perfect) and everything around him is also holy (perfect) we must be holy (perfect). God can't drive a dented car...it's gotta be fixed not just forgiven.

No, God, creator of the universe, can snap his fingers and the car is fixed. God doesn't need us fixing cars. Why does God "need" everything around him to be perfect? He doesn't need that. He's God.

The only thing that "repairs" a sin is blood...should be my blood, but God will accept the lamb instead.

I'm sorry, but this seems like utter nonsense to me. Those with lambs are made holy, those without go to hell, those with lots of lambs can get away with a lot of sin.

Honestly, does this even sound remotely reasonable to you? Is there some reason to suppose God prefers those who have many lambs?

Because death is the complete destruction of that which is not holy. Destruction is what we deserve, but God in his mercy made another way that will satisfy his Justice.

Well, that might make some sense, but to suppose you can be evil and that by killing a lamb you become holy is just silly. It sounds like something invented by wealthy shepards.

This is a really good question, and I've been thinking a lot about it.

The lamb is a cosmic metaphor for us humans. The lamb being sacrificed represents us. How are we like lambs? Well, for one thing, lambs are really dumb...they are always wandering off and getting into trouble. I've heard stories of entire herds of sheep falling off a cliff because they were blindly following the lead sheep. Another way we are like lambs is that they are so dependant. They cannot protect themselves from predators, they cannot find their own grass, they can't get clean water without help (they'll all stand in the same spot until the water becomes mud and drink that) they can't even have babies without help...they'll die in childbirth if unattended.

Without God, we are like sheep who have gone astray. Pretty helpless. And the idea is that everytime a lamb is sacrificed for my sin, I'm supposed to be thinking "that is me."

I suppose your reasoning has some sense for someone who was looking for a good analogy to come up with a way to appease God. It sure doesn't make sense for God to have decided that. What has God got against lambs? I would think he'd have us kill snakes, which after all are the decendents of the critter that lead Eve astray.

But the sheep represent us...so it's us he came to save.

The sheep that were sacrificed couldn't be just any old sheep. They had to be perfect sheep without any blemishes...no fair trying to trim your herd of maimed sick sheep by sending those to be sacrificed and keep the good ones for yourself! Jesus, as the Lamb of God, fulfilled the requirements of the sacrificial lamb. He was perfect, without sin. So his death was the one sacrifce that could be made that would pay for all sin for all time. Plus it also shows us God's love in that He was willing to do our penalty.

For that, the sheep of the world are surely grateful.

Jesus' death paid for our sin, but it didn't automatically restore our fellowship with God. Remember I said there were two deaths? Through faith that Jesus sacrifice becomes ours, we can now have eternal life. Eternal life for all who believe...THAT is what Jesus came for.

Why? Why is faith a component for salvation? If Jesus was the lamb, and the lamb provided salvation, what belief is necessary?

Was it necessary to believe killing the lamb saved you as opposed to just killing the lamb? You said blood and death (preferably someone or something else's) were necessary to make you holy. Or did you need blood, death and belief?

You're welcome. It's a great discussion!

It is, I am still very puzzled by this.

 

[Iriemon]

You have just stated quite plainly what the whole flaw of the sacrificial system is...it's not fair, and it's not effective. So we introduce another characteristic of God...He is "long-suffering."

Let's say you have a really old clunky slow computer (like I do :lol: ) And lets say you've had to keep using that old computer for a really really long time. When you get a new computer and it's fast and sleek, you feel rescued from a fate of slow processors. How much would you appreciate your new computer if you never tried working on an old one? Or you only had to use one for a week? Consider also the subborn twits (like me) who say things like "I'll just make it work! There's nothing really wrong with it, anyway."

The sacrificial system is like the old computer...it did the job mostly, but was a lot of work and frustration. When God finally upgraded, people were amazed at how wonderful the new system is. It serves more people, it's much easier to use. We who have been born under the new system have a harder time appreciating how good it is cause we never had to use the old system. Some people actually believe the old system was quite wonderful and they are returning to it. Still others never would make the change. Imagine, if you got a brand new top-of the-line computer for Christmas, what would you do with the old one?

Give it to my daughter? Somehow, I just don't see the analogy.

We had the old way. Committ a sin, kill a sheep. The sheepless go to hell, the well stock can sin lots. I do agree that sounds like such nonsense that it is a irrational belief system.

But now instead of sheep, we have Christ. If you are born in North Carolina, and brought up with the proper belief system, you in. If you were brought up in Damascus (or, according to Prophetxxx, you were from Lyons but born before the printing press was invented), and don't have the proper belief system, then you're out.

That never made sense to me either. I have a tough time understanding why God would have rules that seem so arbitrarily applied.

 

[Rev.]

And cannot God decide what must be done to make it right without killing lambs?

The one and only thing that could be done to make it truely right was for Adam to die. But God is merciful (to man) and allowed a substitute to die instead. BUT, the substitute didn't make it completely right...it's a temporary fix until God's plan of redemption could be put into motion...like fixing a flat tire with canned air until you can get to the Tire Warehouse.

Just for the record, bulls, rams and doves were also acceptable

No, God, creator of the universe, can snap his fingers and the car is fixed. God doesn't need us fixing cars. Why does God "need" everything around him to be perfect? He doesn't need that. He's God.

Okay, then. He requires everything to be perfect and holy. He's God.

I'm sorry, but this seems like utter nonsense to me. Those with lambs are made holy, those without go to hell, those with lots of lambs can get away with a lot of sin.

Honestly, does this even sound remotely reasonable to you? Is there some reason to suppose God prefers those who have many lambs?

I missed a foundational point earlier that is making a difference here. There are two kinds of sin: Original Sin, and sinS. In your Bible reading you may have noticed sometimes it says "sin" and sometimes it says "sinS" (I'll provide examples if you want). Anyway, sinS are the wrong things we do...lying, cheating, stealing, pride etc. This is the stuff the blood of the lamb cleanses away. The Original Sin, also called carnal nature, is that inner bent...that preference for doing things our way (sinS) rather than God's way. The Bible also calls it a disease...and we caught it from Adam. Adam was not created with Original Sin, it is a result of the Fall. And all mankind since, who are created in Adam's image through procreation, also have carnal nature.

Now, the sacrifices deal with the sinS, but they don't cure the disease. Therefore, people who sacrifice lambs (rams, bulls, doves) are forgiven of their sinS, but they can never be made holy. So it doesn't matter how many lambs (rams, bulls, doves) you sacrifice compared to your neighbor, you are both equally unholy.

When Jesus died, the Temple curtain ripped top to bottom. It symbolized that NOW we can enter into God's presence and fellowship with him because we can be made holy.

Well, that might make some sense, but to suppose you can be evil and that by killing a lamb you become holy is just silly. It sounds like something invented by wealthy shepards.

Of course there was abuse of the sacrificial system. And God sent many prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Hosea...) to warn the people to cease their evil ways or He would bring judgement on them...which he did when the Northern Kingdom was defeated by the Assyrians and Jerusalem was taken by the Babylonians.

I suppose your reasoning has some sense for someone who was looking for a good analogy to come up with a way to appease God. It sure doesn't make sense for God to have decided that. What has God got against lambs? I would think he'd have us kill snakes, which after all are the decendents of the critter that lead Eve astray.

Well, tradition says that God did actually start the sacrificial system and in fact performed the first sacrifice on Adam's behalf. Remember before Adam and Eve left the Garden, God clothed them with animal skins? Where do you suppose he got them?

Why is faith a component for salvation? If Jesus was the lamb, and the lamb provided salvation, what belief is necessary?

Faith is the means by which you acquire Jesus' life and death as your own.

Was it necessary to believe killing the lamb saved you as opposed to just killing the lamb? You said blood and death (preferably someone or something else's) were necessary to make you holy. Or did you need blood, death and belief?

Yes, belief was a part. So you could roll that back in to why faith is necessary for salvation.

 

[Rev.]

Give it to my daughter? Somehow, I just don't see the analogy.

Sorry. I can't figure out how to save the analogy so it makes better sense.

We had the old way. Committ a sin, kill a sheep. The sheepless go to hell, the well stock can sin lots. I do agree that sounds like such nonsense that it is a irrational belief system.

But now instead of sheep, we have Christ. If you are born in North Carolina, and brought up with the proper belief system, you in. If you were brought up in Damascus (or, according to Prophetxxx, you were from Lyons but born before the printing press was invented), and don't have the proper belief system, then you're out.

That never made sense to me either. I have a tough time understanding why God would have rules that seem so arbitrarily applied.

A "belief system" isn't going to save anyone. Only a personal relationship with Jesus will. There are LOTS (and lots and lots and lots) of people who go to church every Sunday, do their time in the pew, and go home to never think another thought about God until next Sunday. They call themselves Christians mainly because they're not Buddist or Hindu. The word "Christian" used to mean "Follower of Christ" but now the definition for the majority is "participator in Sunday Worship." From an eternal perspective, that means nothing...God doesn't want whatever rituals we are doing for Him just for the sake of performing rituals. He wants US. He wants us to fully sacrifice our lives to him like He did for us. It's not about rules or rituals...it's about RELATIONSHIP. God wants a relationship with us and He has done everything necessary to enable that to happen...the next part is up to us.

 

[Jerry]

I understand that is written in the Bible. If I just accepted regardless of whether it made any sense, then I wouldn't have any question about it, I'd just accept senseless doctrine.

The lessons contained within the bible prove it not to be senseless. Quite the radical opposite, in fact. It sound as though you have some problem with christians, though, which predispose you to such an assumption. I have no way of solving such personal issues, so if you only wish to start a fight, just let me know now so I can stop responding. Such a conflict would be pointless.

Again, that explanation makes it sound more like Jesus saved the lambs more than he saved people. People were already saved through lambs. The only thing changed is that a lot of lambs are breathing a lot easier.

Ever hear of Purgatory or The Chalice of the Dead? No, we were not saved through animal sacrifice. Such a thing only staved off God's punishment because we showed remorse in such sacrifices. Pre-crucifixion, the dead were held in either a place of relative suffering (Purgatory) or of relative peace (The Chalice of the Dead). After his Crucifixion, Jesus went to these places and freed all who accepted Him.

There's also a way to get out of hell, but it's supose to be some big secret.

So the way God used to work is that you could buy your way into God's holiness with lambs?

It doesn't seem like you are thoroughly digesting everything that I am posting. I didn't say anything about "buying your way into God's holiness with lambs". Sacrifice was not a transaction, it was a sign of repentance.

Does God working this way make any sense under any concept of God that you have? It doesn't to me. It makes no sense whatsoever. I can't believe God is like that. Maybe He is, but then He could not be a just merciful loving God.

You do not understand what I said.

Why? If God thinks an entity should be perished for whatever reason, He can make it so. If he doesn't want to let demons into heaven, He doesn't have to. If He wants to, He can. He's God.

If you want to know why God's laws are universal and apply to everyone, rather that the spiritual = to discrimination, you'll have to ask Him. I don't have a sufficient answer.

The "way it is" as you describe is patently unreasonable. Which is why I question if it accurately describes the way God works. What is the reason for a rule that if you kill a lamb, your in, but if you don't your out. What is the reason for a rule that if you have the proper belief system, you're in, if you don't, your out.

Er, 1. Animal sacrifice was repentance; 2. the possession of any particular belief system, or even non at all, is totally irrelevant to being "in". Such a rule is not established anywhere. In fact, the exact opposite is established:
Romans 2:12-15;
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

So, you could be an Atheist, a Buddhist, a Wiccan, etc., and "just happen" to obey God's law, and that's just as good as if you were a hard core "believer".

The supposed requirement to belong to a particular belief system is a superficial creation of the church. The christian church is not alone in this.

Learn what?

Love.

What does being allowed to fail or having choice have to do with whether we are made holy by killing lambs or by Christ's death?

Choosing to be and do good. Choosing to love or not.

Good question. Isn't that exactly what Christians say happened with the coming of Jesus? The constitution was changed?

No.
The "constitution" was fulfilled.
I hope that this doesn't hi-Jack the thread, but the best example of this fulfillment that I have is with Roe-v-Wade. Basically, if a fetus's "personhood" is legally established, then per Roe-v-Wade section 9a abortion would be rendered illegal.

In such an event, Roe-v-Wade would not be overturned or abolished, Roe-v-Wade itself would become the abortion ban. Still on the books. Still just as authoritive as it is now.

In the same way did Jesus come to fulfill, not to abolish, the law.
Animal sacrifices are no longer needed not because the law changed or was eliminated, but because all such sacrifices have been made through Jesus. All sacrifices which are and will ever be needed are already played for.