Curious about Christianity?

[Jerry]

so when people ask the church what happened the church just says.....what exactly.....

the reason I asked is to get the churches view......I know about the heretical texts, and they are nice but the church has to have some reason for this 17 year gap....

My experience is that, when asked, the church says "[insert lame excuse and diversion tactic here]". When I pressed the question to my paster he said "[insert lame atempt at spiritual blackmail and threat of going to hell here]". I was then kicked out of confermation class.

The church can not give a history of Jesus which validates another religion because that would take away power and controle from said church.

With God, there is no other authority. With a personal relationship with God, no other governance applies.

 

[goligoth]

My experience is that, when asked, the church says "[insert lame excuse and diversion tactic here]". When I pressed the question to my paster he said "[insert lame atempt at spiritual blackmail and threat of going to hell here]". I was then kicked out of confermation class.

The church can not give a history of Jesus which validates another religion because that would take away power and controle from said church.

With God, there is no other authority. With a personal relationship with God, no other governance applies.

I think that I have asked a priest before.....it was a good while ago and I can't remember what he said.....I am fairly certain he didn't threaten me with hell though....



if anyone knows the churches position on this it would be much appreciated....

 

[Upstart]

First of all, Jesus did not magically turn 33. I don't care if some silly church claims this, it's just dumb. He probably just grew up working for his dad. I also see no reason why he would travel to Tibet or anything like that. You know that trip to Bethlehem? That was a big trip for that time. No-one really traveled otherwise.

The reason why he waited until that age to start his ministry was probably because this was the age you had to have reached to become a priest.

 

[Gibberish]

First of all, Jesus did not magically turn 33. I don't care if some silly church claims this, it's just dumb. He probably just grew up working for his dad. I also see no reason why he would travel to Tibet or anything like that. You know that trip to Bethlehem? That was a big trip for that time. No-one really traveled otherwise.

The reason why he waited until that age to start his ministry was probably because this was the age you had to have reached to become a priest.

Not to assault your knowledge but if you claim to be able to answer any questions you should answer those questions with factual sources not assumptions and opinions.

Why would he not go to Tibet? Those are Gods people there too.

 

[Upstart]

Not to assault your knowledge but if you claim to be able to answer any questions you should answer those questions with factual sources not assumptions and opinions.

Why would he not go to Tibet? Those are Gods people there too.

In that case, how do you know that He didn't go to the New World and preach to the Indians?

 

[Gibberish]

In that case, how do you know that He didn't go to the New World and preach to the Indians?

I don't and I never claimed he did or did not.

 

[clone]

prove to me that there is a god.

 

[Jerry]

prove to me that there is a god.

Given that the physical sciences are not capable of proving anything absolutely (yes.....even gravity) because the physical sciences can not account for the unknown, it would be pointless to try and prove God's existence using them.

Sciences such as theoretical physics and mathematics, however, can prove things absolutely (yes.....even gravity). So I'll get back to you as soon as we have figured out the Theory of Everything.

Until then, strive to become educated in all fields of science, so that when the answer comes you will fully appreciate it's magnitude.

 

[Iriemon]

Here's a question I've never really felt like I got a good answer to.

Why did God need to send a son to die on the cross to save us from our sin?

God is omnipotent; He could save us from our sins without the whole Jesus thing, if that is His desire.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Here's a question I've never really felt like I got a good answer to.

Why did God need to send a son to die on the cross to save us from our sin?

God is omnipotent; He could save us from our sins without the whole Jesus thing, if that is His desire.

Yes, true, but Jesus was sent to tell us how we should conduct ourselves and to provide us a path to salvation and to tell us the choice we must make in that path to obtain it.

The central teachings of Jesus are:

1. Avoid materialism.
2. Love one another including your enemies.
3. Peace and nonviolence.
4. Help the poor. If you have anything that you do not need, then you should give that who has to little.
5. Live by example and especially do not lead children astray.
6. Forgive others.
8. Do not judge others.
9. Be faithful to your wife.
10. Beware of false profits and those who would lead you astray.

Much of his teachings are essentially summed up in the Sermon on the Mount. Especially the beatitudes:

1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Unfortunately few Christians actually live their lives in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, as Gandhi put it so well:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

 

[Iriemon]

Yes, true, but Jesus was sent to tell us how we should conduct ourselves and to provide us a path to salvation and to tell us the choice we must make in that path to obtain it.

The central teachings of Jesus are:

1. Avoid materialism.
2. Love one another including your enemies.
3. Peace and nonviolence.
4. Help the poor. If you have anything that you do not need, then you should give that who has to little.
5. Live by example and especially do not lead children astray.
6. Forgive others.
8. Do not judge others.
9. Be faithful to your wife.
10. Beware of false profits and those who would lead you astray.

Much of his teachings are essentially summed up in the Sermon on the Mount. Especially the beatitudes:

1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for my sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Unfortunately few Christians actually live their lives in accordance with the teachings of Jesus, as Gandhi put it so well:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, you Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

I think like you -- Jesus was sent here to give us a message and to teach.

Other Christians I have conversed with have maintained the the main purpose for Jesus' life was his death -- in his death he became the substituted sacrifice (hence the "lamb of God") and it throught that (or more precisely, belief in that) that brings salvation.

That is the concept I was more particularly addressing, that doesn't quite make sense to me because it seems to presuppose God was unable to give salvation without Christ's death, which to me is inconsistent with the concept of God being omnicient.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I think like you -- Jesus was sent here to give us a message and to teach.

Other Christians I have conversed with have maintained the the main purpose for Jesus' life was his death -- in his death he became the substituted sacrifice (hence the "lamb of God") and it throught that (or more precisely, belief in that) that brings salvation.

That is the concept I was more particularly addressing, that doesn't quite make sense to me because it seems to presuppose God was unable to give salvation without Christ's death, which to me is inconsistent with the concept of God being omnicient.

I think it’s also worth pointing out what a facet of Jesus’s life that is often overlooked. The life of Jesus is one of the greatest examples of nonviolent resistance to evil in the recorded history of man. Here is a man who was born in abject poverty, lived a very simple life, yet was the son of God and had the power to do what ever he wanted to do. He could have through war compelled the masses to submit to the will of God. He could have forcefully helped interceded in conflicts, but he did not. He was one of the poor and consistently sided with the poor over the rich and the powerful. Christ practiced unwavering nonviolent resistance to injustice and was brutally executed. Surely, few Christians would argue that the culmination of Jesus’s life on earth with us was his paying for our sins with his death, but his life as an example of confronting poverty and injustice should not be lost on any of us.

 

[steen]

Great point. Violence, living by the sword, goes against God.

Now, if our leaders could listen...

 

[Rev.]

I think like you -- Jesus was sent here to give us a message and to teach.

Other Christians I have conversed with have maintained the the main purpose for Jesus' life was his death -- in his death he became the substituted sacrifice (hence the "lamb of God") and it throught that (or more precisely, belief in that) that brings salvation.

That is the concept I was more particularly addressing, that doesn't quite make sense to me because it seems to presuppose God was unable to give salvation without Christ's death, which to me is inconsistent with the concept of God being omnicient.

I'd like to take a stab at answering your question if you don't mind...

There is more to God than just his power...he is also just, merciful, and holy. In fact, his entire nature is holy and every other characteristic about God rises out of this holiness. God is omnicient as you said, but only as it is consistant with his nature of holiness. If we don't qualify what we mean by omnicience, than you end up with people demanding that God must sin in order to be truely holy, but that would violate his nature so that must mean he's not really omniecient...and we end up going round and round.

Now back to the beginning...Adam and Eve in the Garden...God says don't eat the fruit "Or you will die." Adam eats the fruit, gets caught. What happens next? Adam doesn't drop dead. So did God lie? No. We understand there are TWO lives at stake here. One is the physical life. One is the spiritual life. Adam DID die spiritually. He could no longer have eternal fellowship with God. That spiritual death happened when he bit into the fruit...he saw that he was naked and he was ashamed...he could no longer look forward to being in God's presence. That fellowship could only be restored if Adam's sin was paid for.

Which presents a problem. The only real way Adam could pay for his sin was to die (at which point there was no hope for fellowship, right?) God is holy...so the only ones he can have fellowship with must also be holy. God can't just ignore the sin. God is just. The sin penalty must be paid. Again, God can't ignore the sin. The penalty for sin is death (which Adam was told up front so there are no surprises here). Adam's blood must be shed. But wait! God is also merciful. So God allowed a substitute...a lamb...to be sacrificed to pay the penalty.

Good deal, right? But there is a problem...every single sin we commit must be paid for with its own lamb. That's a lot of sheep!! So God planned to send his Son, the Lamb of God, do die once for all and pay the penalty of all sins for all time. In order to have Jesus' death apply to our sin, we accept by faith that his death does indeed pay the penalty for my sin. And now, because my sins are paid for, my fellowship with God is restored.

There's more so if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[Jerry]

Here's a question I've never really felt like I got a good answer to.

Why did God need to send a son to die on the cross to save us from our sin?

God is omnipotent; He could save us from our sins without the whole Jesus thing, if that is His desire.

Lest God be held a hypocrite for first saying that X infraction will earn you Y punishment, and then saying "oh, never mind, I didn't mean it", the punishment for sin must be dealt.

But there is nothing that prevents someone ells from "serving your time" for you.

I sin. Because I sin I am deserving of various punishments. God, not wanting me to perish in due coarse of my punishments, sends Jesus to die in my place. God does not do it Himself because God can not die. Jesus, however, being the son of Man, could.

So, I was sentenced to death and Jesus sat in "The Chair" in my place.......only to rise again 3 days later.

God could not have don it any other way because that is not how His law works. Had God set up a different system of law then perhaps. But such a hypothetical system is irrelevant conjecture at best, because what ever such a system would be, is not the one we are dealing with today.

 

[Iriemon]

... If we don't qualify what we mean by omnicience, than you end up with people demanding that God must sin in order to be truely holy, ...

Don't understand... Why would God have to sin to be truly holy? Can God sin? He makes the rules.

Now back to the beginning...Adam and Eve in the Garden... That fellowship could only be restored if Adam's sin was paid for.

Why would it have to be paid for? God is merciful. He could have forgiven Adam. After all, He created him.

Which presents a problem. The only real way Adam could pay for his sin was to die (at which point there was no hope for fellowship, right?)

why?

God is holy...so the only ones he can have fellowship with must also be holy.

Why?

God can't just ignore the sin. God is just. The sin penalty must be paid. Again, God can't ignore the sin.

Therefore God can't forgive and forget? Why not?

The penalty for sin is death (which Adam was told up front so there are no surprises here).

God could make the penalty anything He wants. Why does He have to make it death?

Adam's blood must be shed. But wait! God is also merciful. So God allowed a substitute...a lamb...to be sacrificed to pay the penalty.

Adam sinned, therefore is not holy and can't hang with God. But by killing a lamb, that pays for the sin so he can hang with God. Why a lamb? Why couldn't God make the penalty a rat? Or Adam has to do 100 push ups. Of course He could that. He's God.

Good deal, right? But there is a problem...every single sin we commit must be paid for with its own lamb.

Why? Do sheep have some special holy value? How does killing a sheep make one holy with God again? Surely the creator of the universe, earth, and man doesn't need to have a sheep killed just to forgive someone.

That's a lot of sheep!! So God planned to send his Son, the Lamb of God, do die once for all and pay the penalty of all sins for all time.

This implies that God did not send Christ to save us, but to save the sheep. That actually might make sense.

And why did God have to send his son to die? What does that accomplish?

In order to have Jesus' death apply to our sin, we accept by faith that his death does indeed pay the penalty for my sin.

Why would it make a difference whether we believe that or not? If Jesus' death paid for our sins, what difference does it make what we believe?

And now, because my sins are paid for, my fellowship with God is restored. There's more so if you have any questions, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to answer them.

I tend to be a little sacrastic, it's my smart-*** nature, but I really do have questions about this whole Christ died so we could be holy with God concept. I believe in Christ, I think he was sent here and given special powers and raised from the dead so that people would pay attention to what he was telling us (which few Christians seem to actually do) but the whole son of God and his death erases our sins thing makes absolutely no sense to me.

Thanks for your response.

 

[Iriemon]

Lest God be held a hypocrite for first saying that X infraction will earn you Y punishment, and then saying "oh, never mind, I didn't mean it", the punishment for sin must be dealt.

That presumes that God has to first set the penalty for any sin as death, which He does not. He is the lawmaker; He can set any penalty he wants.

But there is nothing that prevents someone ells from "serving your time" for you.

Interesting concept ... God doesn't care who pays the price as long as it is paid. I sin, I'm not holy; a lamb dies, or perhaps throw a virgin in a volcano, and I'm holy again. Does God really work this way? Does He have to?

I sin. Because I sin I am deserving of various punishments. God, not wanting me to perish in due coarse of my punishments, sends Jesus to die in my place. God does not do it Himself because God can not die. Jesus, however, being the son of Man, could. So, I was sentenced to death and Jesus sat in "The Chair" in my place.......only to rise again 3 days later.[/

If God doesn't want you to perish in due course, why doesn't He just change the punishment?

God could not have don it any other way because that is not how His law works.

Well why can't God change the way His law works. He's God. He can do whatever He wants.

Had God set up a different system of law then perhaps.

Exactly.

But such a hypothetical system is irrelevant conjecture at best, because what ever such a system would be, is not the one we are dealing with today.

That is the presupposition I am questioning.

 

[Jerry]

That presumes that God has to first set the penalty for any sin as death, which He does not. He is the lawmaker; He can set any penalty he wants.

per James 20:10, if you commit any sin, you are guilty of all of it, because you are either a lawbreaker or you are not. Given that, we are all guilty of sin which is worthy of death.

Interesting concept ... God doesn't care who pays the price as long as it is paid. I sin, I'm not holy; a lamb dies, or perhaps throw a virgin in a volcano, and I'm holy again. Does God really work this way? Does He have to?

Oh come on now, Judeo-Christianity never demanded that a virgin be thrown into a volcano.

Yes, pre-crucifixion God worked that way. Post crucifixion all such sacrifices have been made through Jesus, so no more sacrifices of any kind are needed.

The reason why that is is because one had to sacrifice personal resources, personal effort, in the form of animals and such so as to come back into balance. With Jesus, however, one now has the ability to fully reform themselves, whereas before we could not.

If God doesn't want you to perish in due course, why doesn't He just change the punishment?

God's law applies to everyone. Not just Man, but angels and demons as well.

If God lets you or me off the hook, He has to let them off the hook as well. The whole thing comes down to either being connected to eternity, or isolating yourself.

Everything is the way it is for a reason. Everything serves a purpose. It is the best way for us to learn. It is only way for us to have free will. We could not learn anything if we were not allowed to fail, either ourselves or others. Choosing to love God would be meaningless if we had no other choice. Doing good would be meaningless if we had no other choice.

Well why can't God change the way His law works. He's God. He can do whatever He wants.

He'd be a hypocrite if He did, now that the system is in motion.
I wouldn't want the Founding Fathers coming back and just rewrite the constitution. I wouldn't want some official source changing the rules of poker while I'm in mid-game.

What then would be the point in having any rules at all if they are only going to be changed on a whim?

 

[George_Washington]

If you guys who are agnostics and atheists want to become Christians and be like Jesus...

Stop looking for proof and put your textbooks down. Heck, even put your Bible down for a day or two.

Get up in the morning, go to work, and smile at people. Make a coworker feel good about themselves. Do a kind deed for someone that has never asked you to. Compliment someone. Give just a little bit of your money to someone who might be a little more needy. Give of yourself to others and you'll be more of a Christian than you think.

 

[Jerry]

If you guys who are agnostics and atheists want to become Christians and be like Jesus...

Stop looking for proof and put your textbooks down. Heck, even put your Bible down for a day or two.

Get up in the morning, go to work, and smile at people. Make a coworker feel good about themselves. Do a kind deed for someone that has never asked you to. Compliment someone. Give just a little bit of your money to someone who might be a little more needy. Give of yourself to others and you'll be more of a Christian than you think.

:applaud
Well said!
That's what it's all about!

 

[Iriemon]

per James 20:10, if you commit any sin, you are guilty of all of it, because you are either a lawbreaker or you are not. Given that, we are all guilty of sin which is worthy of death.

I understand that is written in the Bible. If I just accepted regardless of whether it made any sense, then I wouldn't have any question about it, I'd just accept sensless doctrine.

Oh come on now, Judeo-Christianity never demanded that a virgin be thrown into a volcano.

LOL -- agree, but if one can be made holy by the death of another, sounds like a reasonable practice. Unless you're a virgin.

Yes, pre-crucifixion God worked that way. Post crucifixion all such sacrifices have been made through Jesus, so no more sacrifices of any kind are needed.

Again, that explanation makes it sound more like Jesus saved the lambs more than he saved people. People were already saved through lambs. The only thing changed is that a lot of lambs are breathing a lot easier.

The reason why that is is because one had to sacrifice personal resources, personal effort, in the form of animals and such so as to come back into balance. With Jesus, however, one now has the ability to fully reform themselves, whereas before we could not.

So the way God used to work is that you could buy your way into God's holiness with lambs? A guy with a lot of lambs could be pretty sinful; while a poor guy, one sin and if you don't have a lamb, you're damned for eternity.

Does God working this way make any sense under any concept of God that you have? It doesn't to me. It makes no sense whatsoever. I can't believe God is like that. Maybe He is, but then He could not be a just merciful loving God.

God's law applies to everyone. Not just Man, but angels and demons as well.

If God lets you or me off the hook, He has to let them off the hook as well. The whole thing comes down to either being connected to eternity, or isolating yourself.

Why? If God thinks an entity should be perished for whatever reason, He can make it so. If he doesn't want to let demons into heaven, He doesn't have to. If He wants to, He can. He's God.

Everything is the way it is for a reason.

The "way it is" as you describe is patently unreasonable. Which is why I question if it accurately describes the way God works. What is the reason for a rule that if you kill a lamb, your in, but if you don't your out. What is the reason for a rule that if you have the proper belief system, you're in, if you don't, your out.

Everything serves a purpose.

That is rational.

It is the best way for us to learn.

Learn what?

It is only way for us to have free will. We could not learn anything if we were not allowed to fail, either ourselves or others. Choosing to love God would be meaningless if we had no other choice. Doing good would be meaningless if we had no other choice.

What does being allowed to fail or having choice have to do with whether we are made holy by killing lambs or by Christ's death?

He'd be a hypocrite if He did, now that the system is in motion.
I wouldn't want the Founding Fathers coming back and just rewrite the constitution. I wouldn't want some official source changing the rules of poker while I'm in mid-game.

What then would be the point in having any rules at all if they are only going to be changed on a whim?

Good question. Isn't that exactly what Christians say happened with the coming of Jesus? The constitution was changed?

 

[Iriemon]

If you guys who are agnostics and atheists want to become Christians and be like Jesus...

Stop looking for proof and put your textbooks down. Heck, even put your Bible down for a day or two.

Get up in the morning, go to work, and smile at people. Make a coworker feel good about themselves. Do a kind deed for someone that has never asked you to. Compliment someone. Give just a little bit of your money to someone who might be a little more needy. Give of yourself to others and you'll be more of a Christian than you think.

Amen.

......

 

[Rev.]

Don't understand... Why would God have to sin to be truly holy? Can God sin? He makes the rules.

So sorry. That was a typo. I meant to say "If we don't qualify what we mean by omnicience, than you end up with people demanding that God must sin in order to be truely omnicient"

Now back to the beginning...Adam and Eve in the Garden... That fellowship could only be restored if Adam's sin was paid for.

Why would it have to be paid for? God is merciful. He could have forgiven Adam. After all, He created him.

Yes, he could have just forgiven him...but forgiveness without some kind of recognition that damage has been done is dishonest. A wrong demands that something must be done to make it right.

If you were in a car accident, forgiving the other driver wouldn't fix your car. I said before God is holy...another word that can be used to describe that is "perfect." Since God is holy (perfect) and everything around him is also holy (perfect) we must be holy (perfect). God can't drive a dented car...it's gotta be fixed not just forgiven.

Which presents a problem. The only real way Adam could pay for his sin was to die (at which point there was no hope for fellowship, right?)

why?

The only thing that "repairs" a sin is blood...should be my blood, but God will accept the lamb instead.

The penalty for sin is death (which Adam was told up front so there are no surprises here).

God could make the penalty anything He wants. Why does He have to make it death?

Because death is the complete destruction of that which is not holy. Destruction is what we deserve, but God in his mercy made another way that will satisfy his Justice.

Adam sinned, therefore is not holy and can't hang with God. But by killing a lamb, that pays for the sin so he can hang with God.

No, he didn't get to hang with God. He had to leave the garden, remember?

Why a lamb? Why couldn't God make the penalty a rat? Or Adam has to do 100 push ups. Of course He could that. He's God...

Why? Do sheep have some special holy value? How does killing a sheep make one holy with God again? Surely the creator of the universe, earth, and man doesn't need to have a sheep killed just to forgive someone.

This is a really good question, and I've been thinking a lot about it.

The lamb is a cosmic metaphor for us humans. The lamb being sacrificed represents us. How are we like lambs? Well, for one thing, lambs are really dumb...they are always wandering off and getting into trouble. I've heard stories of entire herds of sheep falling off a cliff because they were blindly following the lead sheep. Another way we are like lambs is that they are so dependant. They cannot protect themselves from predators, they cannot find their own grass, they can't get clean water without help (they'll all stand in the same spot until the water becomes mud and drink that) they can't even have babies without help...they'll die in childbirth if unattended.

Without God, we are like sheep who have gone astray. Pretty helpless. And the idea is that everytime a lamb is sacrificed for my sin, I'm supposed to be thinking "that is me."

That's a lot of sheep!! So God planned to send his Son, the Lamb of God, to die once for all and pay the penalty of all sins for all time.

This implies that God did not send Christ to save us, but to save the sheep. That actually might make sense.

And why did God have to send his son to die? What does that accomplish?

But the sheep represent us...so it's us he came to save.

The sheep that were sacrificed couldn't be just any old sheep. They had to be perfect sheep without any blemishes...no fair trying to trim your herd of maimed sick sheep by sending those to be sacrificed and keep the good ones for yourself! Jesus, as the Lamb of God, fulfilled the requirements of the sacrificial lamb. He was perfect, without sin. So his death was the one sacrifce that could be made that would pay for all sin for all time. Plus it also shows us God's love in that He was willing to do our penalty.

In order to have Jesus' death apply to our sin, we accept by faith that his death does indeed pay the penalty for my sin.

Why would it make a difference whether we believe that or not? If Jesus' death paid for our sins, what difference does it make what we believe?

Jesus' death paid for our sin, but it didn't automatically restore our fellowship with God. Remember I said there were two deaths? Through faith that Jesus sacrifice becomes ours, we can now have eternal life. Eternal life for all who believe...THAT is what Jesus came for.

I tend to be a little sacrastic, it's my smart-*** nature, but I really do have questions about this whole Christ died so we could be holy with God concept. I believe in Christ, I think he was sent here and given special powers and raised from the dead so that people would pay attention to what he was telling us (which few Christians seem to actually do) but the whole son of God and his death erases our sins thing makes absolutely no sense to me.

Thanks for your response.

You're welcome. It's a great discussion!

 

[Rev.]

So the way God used to work is that you could buy your way into God's holiness with lambs? A guy with a lot of lambs could be pretty sinful; while a poor guy, one sin and if you don't have a lamb, you're damned for eternity.

Does God working this way make any sense under any concept of God that you have? It doesn't to me. It makes no sense whatsoever. I can't believe God is like that. Maybe He is, but then He could not be a just merciful loving God.

You have just stated quite plainly what the whole flaw of the sacrificial system is...it's not fair, and it's not effective. So we introduce another characteristic of God...He is "long-suffering."

Let's say you have a really old clunky slow computer (like I do :lol: ) And lets say you've had to keep using that old computer for a really really long time. When you get a new computer and it's fast and sleek, you feel rescued from a fate of slow processors. How much would you appreciate your new computer if you never tried working on an old one? Or you only had to use one for a week? Consider also the subborn twits (like me) who say things like "I'll just make it work! There's nothing really wrong with it, anyway."

The sacrificial system is like the old computer...it did the job mostly, but was a lot of work and frustration. When God finally upgraded, people were amazed at how wonderful the new system is. It serves more people, it's much easier to use. We who have been born under the new system have a harder time appreciating how good it is cause we never had to use the old system. Some people actually believe the old system was quite wonderful and they are returning to it. Still others never would make the change. Imagine, if you got a brand new top-of the-line computer for Christmas, what would you do with the old one?

Good question. Isn't that exactly what Christians say happened with the coming of Jesus? The constitution was changed?

No, the constitution was fulfilled. Every "i" dotted, every "t" crossed. Jesus becomes our proxy for fulfilling the old rules when we accept his work by faith (which now puts the emphasis on his life rather than his death) and we are free to live under the new system. If you don't accept Jesus, you will be judged under a different system.

 

[steen]

If you guys who are agnostics and atheists want to become Christians and be like Jesus...

Stop looking for proof and put your textbooks down. Heck, even put your Bible down for a day or two.

Get up in the morning, go to work, and smile at people. Make a coworker feel good about themselves. Do a kind deed for someone that has never asked you to. Compliment someone. Give just a little bit of your money to someone who might be a little more needy. Give of yourself to others and you'll be more of a Christian than you think.

Exactly.

And if you want to go further and become a fundamentalist, an evangelical, then all you have to do is become an absolutist, judging, intolerant and lying bible thumper. Some people obviously like to go that extra step. I prefer the first step only.