Cuba, Democracy and the British Precedent

[Joe Castro]

Much is often said about Cuba's lack of "democracy", that Fidel and now Raul Castro are dictators. Cuba has abandoned "democracy", okay fair enough, I'll accept that for arguments sake. But what do we mean when we say "democracy", Do we mean like the US, at essence a capitalist one party state with 2 rival factions - the Democrats and Republicans. In effect that is what people do mean as that is the type of "democracy" they by and large refer to. Some consideration tells us though, that this is what Cuba has, we have seen in the past year or so that there is debate within the communist party on what road to socialism they should take. There in lies the problem people have with Cuba, communism and socialism. if it was a road to capitalism, like Pinochet's Chile for instance then these people would be somewhat less critical to say the least.

The basis of the one party state comparison that in the US the barriers of disagreement are so thin that it does amount to two factions within one wider belief system which mirrors a party. In effect what they are is the factions of a capitalist party. And where do these disagreements come from ? There is no disagreement on the big issues, like who owns capital, do the people or the elites. Such questions are conveniently never asked by their paymasters in the elite class and media.

How this capitalist party maintains its dominance is by creating an illusion of freedom. We are all free to give our opinions, but we dont own the means to make them widely accessible. If we give opinions outwith the thin barriers of disagreement then we do not get the platform to make them known. In this way the capitalist party as Noam Chomsky so eloquently illustrated, Manufacture Consent.

Now i turn to my main point, one put across by George Galloway MP. It is this. Cuba may not be democratic, but you must consider the circumstances and acknowledge historical precedents.

Cuba is essentially in a state of war. The cold war is still in effect for Cuba. It is faced by the threat of the greatest superpower ever known to man. This superpower threatens Cuba, they threaten to take away from the Cuban people all the things that the revolution has given them. It has done this by invading (the bay of pigs), funding (ALPHA 66) and training terrorism (The School of the Americas), it grants freedom to known terrorists (Bosch and Carriles), it fights a propaganda war from radio stations in Miami and CIA funded "journalism". These are important circumstances for consideration.

Then we can look at the historical precedence. Take WW1 when Britain was at a state of war (not even a defensive war like Cuba's) it passed DORA, the Defence of the Realm Act. The details of this act are easily accessible online for anyone wanting to investigate. Basically what it did was give the power to arrest people without trial on any suspicion of disloyalty to the state. This goes way beyond what the Communist Party can do.

If we want to take another precedent of when Britain was in a defensive war, we can look at WW2. What happened here was all elections were halted and the power of "dictatorship" given to government. In this war Britain was faced with an imperialist superpower knocking on its door. During this state of war there was a small minority within Britain who were loyal to Nazi germany. There were Hitlerite Brown shirts within the country spreading Nazi Propaganda and acting as enemy agents. These people were locked up. So why shouldn't Cuba lock enemy agents? Why should Cuba hold the type of elections we want?

Instead of berating Cuba and the Castro's as dictators, we should applaud them as resistance hero's. They should be held in reverence similarly to how most view Churchill -who did far more horrid things than Fidel or Raul ever have. These include gassing the kurds, perhaps serving as inspiration to Saddam Hussein.

If such a process was okay for Britain, then it is okay for Cuba.

 

[Dav]

Cuba is essentially in a state of war. The cold war is still in effect for Cuba. It is faced by the threat of the greatest superpower ever known to man. This superpower threatens Cuba, they threaten to take away from the Cuban people all the things that the revolution has given them.

And yet many Cubans risk their lives trying to escape to that evil superpower and away from "all the things that the revolution has given them".

But of course, that's still all the U.S.'s fault, right?

 

[rathi]

Cuba isn't some paradise, and Castro was not some saint. Cuba was simply a great example of the foolishness of American cold war foreign policy. As usual, the ignored the capitalist dictator and the inequality of wealth that occurred. Than when a socialist revolution happens, we act all surprised. Finally, we stupidly think the Soviets are behind it, and start messing with country. As a result of trying to overthrow Castro using force, we drive him fully into the arms of the soviets, creating our worst fears. This time it is even worse, as Castro thinks he will protected if he has nuclear missiles on his soil, and that starts the Cuban missile crisis. Now nearly 50 years later, when China is our biggest overseas trading partner and Russia gives us military access through their airspace, we still have an embargo on Cuba. Cuba is hardly a paragon of democracy or whatever, but not nearly bad enough to deserve an embargo either.

 

[winston53660]

Cuba isn't some paradise, and Castro was not some saint. Cuba was simply a great example of the foolishness of American cold war foreign policy. As usual, the ignored the capitalist dictator and the inequality of wealth that occurred. Than when a socialist revolution happens, we act all surprised. Finally, we stupidly think the Soviets are behind it, and start messing with country. As a result of trying to overthrow Castro using force, we drive him fully into the arms of the soviets, creating our worst fears. This time it is even worse, as Castro thinks he will protected if he has nuclear missiles on his soil, and that starts the Cuban missile crisis. Now nearly 50 years later, when China is our biggest overseas trading partner and Russia gives us military access through their airspace, we still have an embargo on Cuba. Cuba is hardly a paragon of democracy or whatever, but not nearly bad enough to deserve an embargo either.

It was the missile crisis and it is time to let it go.

 

[Joe Castro]

And yet many Cubans risk their lives trying to escape to that evil superpower and away from "all the things that the revolution has given them".

But of course, that's still all the U.S.'s fault, right?

Well, yes to an extent. But I do not want to go down that avenue as that is to ignore the centerpiece of the argument.

 

[Agnapostate]

Two things are worth noting in response to that, though. Firstly, not everyone who leaves Cuba is a political refugee; many are economic refugees weary of the destitute conditions exacerbated by the trade embargo. Secondly, U.S. administrations' acceptance of Cuban immigrants have not been as humanitarian in nature as they've been depicted; Haitian immigrants fleeing the Duvalier regime were sent back to their own island while Cubans were accepted into Florida, indicating that an additional political element is involved.

 

[Dav]

Well, yes to an extent. But I do not want to go down that avenue as that is to ignore the centerpiece of the argument.

As far as I can tell, the argument is that Castro is a dictator, but it's okay because the country is at war.

Now, not a single fire has been shot in more than 50 years, so if this is a "war", it's actually a Cold War. During the Cold War in America, we somehow managed to continue going about our daily lives and keeping our system of democracy. So your argument is invalid.

 

[Joe Castro]

As far as I can tell, the argument is that Castro is a dictator, but it's okay because the country is at war.

Now, not a single fire has been shot in more than 50 years, so if this is a "war", it's actually a Cold War. During the Cold War in America, we somehow managed to continue going about our daily lives and keeping our system of democracy. So your argument is invalid.

That is not the argument, that is an argument which disregards crucial premises. it ignores US backed terror which is a continuous act of war. I also do not regard Raul or Fidel before him as a dictator, it is a one party democracy, the communist party can remove its leaders, it just has no reason to do so.

But the most important issue in this is the British precedent. When Britain was faced by an aggressive empire in WW2 it had to abandon democratic procedures. Even in WW1 when it was not faced with domination the democratic system was overturned. WW2 is the most crucial though as the parallels with Cuba are strong. Both had an enemy within working for the foreign empire, both were threatened by domination. If it was okay for Britain to cancel or greatly restrict democracy then why not Cuba. Cuba actually has even more reason to be fearful than Britain did. Britain was a first world country and an empire, taking on another country with similar powers. but Cuba is a poor, tiny island, faced down by the most powerful political and military entity ever known to man. All precautions must then be taken if Cuba is to have any chance of survival as a sovereign power.

 

[phattonez]

I also do not regard Raul or Fidel before him as a dictator, it is a one party democracy, the communist party can remove its leaders, it just has no reason to do so.

If you believe that, then you know absolutely nothing about Cuba.

 

[Joe Castro]

If you believe that, then you know absolutely nothing about Cuba.

Well I'll take the word of the communist party before that of the counter revolutionary, traitor class.

 

[phattonez]

Well I'll take the word of the communist party before that of the counter revolutionary, traitor class.

Yeah, take the word of the people who are subjugating the people over the people who are being subjugated. Makes a ton of sense.

 

[B L Zeebub]

I hope for selfish reasons the embargo stays, the day I see a Carnival Cruise Liner in the harbour spewing out its dankish full-gorged gudgeons, and their craven open-arsed harpies, I know all will be lost.

 

[phattonez]

Yeah, how terrible that people can have access to things that they actually want.

 

[DrunkenAsparagus]

The embargo was no doubt a huge hit to the Cuban economy, because they had very close ties to us. However, no one else has an embargo on them. They've had almost 50 years to regroup and bring in ties with other countries. The country is still in bad shape. Battista was a corrupt dictator, but at least Cuba's economy was the envy of the Carribean and most of Latin America at the time. Castro's government has turned it into a hellhole.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

The embargo was no doubt a huge hit to the Cuban economy, because they had very close ties to us. However, no one else has an embargo on them. They've had almost 50 years to regroup and bring in ties with other countries. The country is still in bad shape. Battista was a corrupt dictator, but at least Cuba's economy was the envy of the Carribean and most of Latin America at the time. Castro's government has turned it into a hellhole.

Sure, the economy was incredibly attractive to foreign capital, but that's mostly because the Cubans were working so hard for such little pay. :2wave: