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Critics see contradictions in Obama administration's Syria claims

Ari

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Montecresto

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Critics don't see the legalality in attacking a country that hasn't attacked us, against the will of the American people and without a UN resolution on secretive "evidence" that president Assad commited the very illogical act of attacking his own people who largely support him and at risk of hostilities spreading throughout the entire region and possibly drawing Russia or China in!!!
 

Ari

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Critics don't see the legalality in attacking a country that hasn't attacked us, against the will of the American people and without a UN resolution on secretive "evidence" that president Assad commited the very illogical act of attacking his own people who largely support him and at risk of hostilities spreading throughout the entire region and possibly drawing Russia or China in!!!
It won't be effective long term either. I'm anticipating hearing what the UN inspectors have to say.
 

Ari

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Basically they're playing "What's the right answer?" ..."here you go." I guess another way to look at it is they are treating it like a bill, negotiating what it will involve to satisfy everyone.
I trust the UN a little more than that. I think the people on the ground genuinely wanna get to the bottom of this, but I'm sure of their bosses have different interests.
 

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I trust the UN a little more than that. I think the people on the ground genuinely wanna get to the bottom of this, but I'm sure of their bosses have different interests.
Oh, you mean with respect to whether they were used or not? I was speaking strictly about the Obama admin and Congress. I'm sure you're right about the UN worker on the ground, and the frustration they probably feel. UN doesn't have a very good track record in acting decisively even when answers are definitive, however.
 

Ari

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Oh, you mean with respect to whether they were used or not? I was speaking strictly about the Obama admin and Congress. I'm sure you're right about the UN worker on the ground, and the frustration they probably feel. UN doesn't have a very good track record in acting decisively even when answers are definitive, however.
The UN could be a wonderful organization if they were above petty politics. I'm sure the white house is already looking for ways to spin any results from the inspectors that conflicts with their interests.
 

SBu

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The UN could be a wonderful organization if they were above petty politics. I'm sure the white house is already looking for ways to spin any results from the inspectors that conflicts with their interests.
There aren't many things that the inspectors were mandated to do other than determine if they were used and what agent it was. They will probably determine the delivery method and ammunition type which may be the only circumstantial indicators. If they can determine what type of delivery method to the tune of what specific kind of artillery piece for example, then you can compare with who has what. If evidence of inspector stamp or other indicator can be found on a shell for example, then you might be able to infer who it came from. Nothing concrete though.

The UN serves a purpose but doesn't live up to the hype, and can't unless the vast array of countries in it agreed to the vast majority of issues. THe UN in some ways is a complete farce like its human rights council with members often including some of the worst human rights offenders.
 

Ari

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There aren't many things that the inspectors were mandated to do other than determine if they were used and what agent it was. They will probably determine the delivery method and ammunition type which may be the only circumstantial indicators. If they can determine what type of delivery method to the tune of what specific kind of artillery piece for example, then you can compare with who has what. If evidence of inspector stamp or other indicator can be found on a shell for example, then you might be able to infer who it came from. Nothing concrete though.

The UN serves a purpose but doesn't live up to the hype, and can't unless the vast array of countries in it agreed to the vast majority of issues. THe UN in some ways is a complete farce like its human rights council with members often including some of the worst human rights offenders.
It'll be interesting to how things play out if the UN turns up good evidence suggesting the rebels are responsible.
 

DiAnna

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It'll be interesting to how things play out if the UN turns up good evidence suggesting the rebels are responsible.
I don't hold the UN in the same esteem you do, but my guess is that the UN inspectors will report that yes, Sarin gas was indeed used.... period. I don't believe the UN will make any report about which side may have used them, because that would force the UN itself to take a "side", thereby ticking off somebody they don't want to tick off.
 

Ari

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I don't hold the UN in the same esteem you do, but my guess is that the UN inspectors will report that yes, Sarin gas was indeed used.... period. I don't believe the UN will make any report about which side may have used them, because that would force the UN itself to take a "side", thereby ticking off somebody they don't want to tick off.
In a perfect world UN leaders wouldn't care if objective facts upset someone. I don't hold the UN to a high esteem. I just like it on paper.
 

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In a perfect world UN leaders wouldn't care if objective facts upset someone. I don't hold the UN to a high esteem. I just like it on paper.
It's not a perfect world, and the UN "on paper" does not exist in reality. But I admire your optimism! :lol:
 

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I don't hold the UN in the same esteem you do, but my guess is that the UN inspectors will report that yes, Sarin gas was indeed used.... period. I don't believe the UN will make any report about which side may have used them, because that would force the UN itself to take a "side", thereby ticking off somebody they don't want to tick off.
That is ridiculous. If the UN conducts their investigation, compiles their report and presents it to the members, why does it require them to take a side? The evidence will be what it will be. They don't choose sides. Unless your accusing them of manipulating facts.
 

Montecresto

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In a perfect world UN leaders wouldn't care if objective facts upset someone. I don't hold the UN to a high esteem. I just like it on paper.

Even in a less than perfect world.
 

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That is ridiculous. If the UN conducts their investigation, compiles their report and presents it to the members, why does it require them to take a side? The evidence will be what it will be. They don't choose sides. Unless your accusing them of manipulating facts.
The UN inspectors were not sent to determine who used what, only to determine what was used. They are investigating three separate possible chemical weapons attacks over the last 6 months, and I expect to see 3 answers stating what was used with soil and tissue samples.
 

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The UN inspectors were not sent to determine who used what, only to determine what was used. They are investigating three separate possible chemical weapons attacks over the last 6 months, and I expect to see 3 answers stating what was used with soil and tissue samples.

I wasn't arguing against that. I'm saying I accept that the UN will compile their report and deliver it to the assembly and it will be what it will be, not fixed around an ideology.
 

CanadaJohn

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It's not just critics that find contradictions in Obama and his administration's Syria position. Those who support the President or some level of intervention also find contradictions and haven't a clue what the end game is here. Even those in the administration itself seem to be uncertain what the position and goals are.

A lack of clear, principled, leadership leaves such a vacuum.
 

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The UN could be a wonderful organization if they were above petty politics. I'm sure the white house is already looking for ways to spin any results from the inspectors that conflicts with their interests.
Or it is possible that they ignore the report entirely. Look at what happened in Syria to the Arab League Report and how it was completely ignored.
 

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It won't be effective long term either. I'm anticipating hearing what the UN inspectors have to say.
Pfft. It may satisfy the world, but the UN inspectors know nothing. They know what they're shown when they're shown it. Intelligence gathered surreptitiously is a hell of a lot more reliable than UN inspectors being chauffeured around the country by governmental agents.

The fact that we've learned our intelligence can be 100% wrong is the problem. (Iraq has WMDs.) The fact that it makes little logical sense for the Syrian government to attack its own people in the face of obvious world condemnation is the problem. The fact that our "war machine" is being drawn down and we don't trust our government to not want to start mobilizing again is the problem.
 

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Your nailing it there Maggie.
 

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It's not just critics that find contradictions in Obama and his administration's Syria position. Those who support the President or some level of intervention also find contradictions and haven't a clue what the end game is here. Even those in the administration itself seem to be uncertain what the position and goals are.

A lack of clear, principled, leadership leaves such a vacuum.
:agree: And winging it at this point sure doesn't look like a really great idea! :thumbdown:
 

DaveFagan

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It won't be effective long term either. I'm anticipating hearing what the UN inspectors have to say.
All the UN inspectors will say is that, "gas killed people." They were specifically ordered not to determine blame or who used the gas. How's that for a waste of time?
 

Ari

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Pfft. It may satisfy the world, but the UN inspectors know nothing. They know what they're shown when they're shown it. Intelligence gathered surreptitiously is a hell of a lot more reliable than UN inspectors being chauffeured around the country by governmental agents.

The fact that we've learned our intelligence can be 100% wrong is the problem. (Iraq has WMDs.) The fact that it makes little logical sense for the Syrian government to attack its own people in the face of obvious world condemnation is the problem. The fact that our "war machine" is being drawn down and we don't trust our government to not want to start mobilizing again is the problem.
It seems I'm alone in my approval of the UN. lol. I agree though, and I really didn't Obama would be the starting the war machine back up.
 

Ari

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It's not just critics that find contradictions in Obama and his administration's Syria position. Those who support the President or some level of intervention also find contradictions and haven't a clue what the end game is here. Even those in the administration itself seem to be uncertain what the position and goals are.

A lack of clear, principled, leadership leaves such a vacuum.
Yeah, I'm really not liking how's he's handling this.
 
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