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Crime rises but the real problem is with police.

justabubba

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Neh....

I'm siding with Blue, the police, TYVM!
 
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bullseyelqcs

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More black on black crime, but of course the problem is with the police.
BLM agenda should read Family, Education and Jobs is the way not criminal activity.



NYC woman, 74, punched in face after teens snatch purse, police say | Fox News

So because crime exists, we have to accept that there sre cops who are going to cross the line? That sounds like a pretty stupid binary choice you are making here.

Its like ignoring the leaking head gasket on your car because the transmission is skipping. Both things are problems and need to be fixed, and one is not inherently more important than the other.
 

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So because crime exists, we have to accept that there sre cops who are going to cross the line? That sounds like a pretty stupid binary choice you are making here.

Its like ignoring the leaking head gasket on your car because the transmission is skipping. Both things are problems and need to be fixed, and one is not inherently more important than the other.

So your argument is that because we have a few bad cops, they are all bad and we should demonize the entire force. That makes sense.
 

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Anyone who has been the victim of a violent crime (or who has a family member or friend who has been a victim) knows that the lesser of the two evils is the cop, not the violent, conscienceless individual that robbed or sucker punched or looted or raped or murdered.

Cops are no angels, but to whom do you turn to when you are a victim of the many, many, many bad individuals in this country?

And, in fact, the cops often do nothing to help you -- because you're not considered important enough or because they are afraid of being accused of being prejudiced against certain dear, sweet, perfectly innocent "children."

You ain't seen nothing yet! Wait until the 46th President is inaugurated in January. The police will be afraid to say even "Boo!" And the violent mobs will rule the streets.
 

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let's not make it a binary choice:
either cultural inclination against authority and appropriate behavior
or
bad elements within the police departments
why not acknowledge it's some of both?
I think we all acknowledge both. the question is emphasis. Eliminating cop abuse completely would be a drop on the bucket of the main issue. I am all for reforming cops. But the incredible lack of focus on the main issues means nothing much is going to change until that changes. And It’s politically driven. Dems will not touch the real problem and most gop will not either for fear of being labeled racist.
 

bullseyelqcs

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So your argument is that because we have a few bad cops, they are all bad and we should demonize the entire force. That makes sense.

Who demonized the entire force? I surely didn't. If you think I did, please point me to where you think that happened.

The problem is the culture of the force, however. I don't think a good cop who says nothing is just as bad as a cop who crosses the line, but to say they aren't at least somewhat complicit would be inaccurate as well. The notion that not ratting out your partner is somehow more important than bringing a wrong to light has to change. The idea that you are a bad cop for telling the truth about the bad cops among you has to change as well.

This isn't one of those "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem" situations...because its not the job of one officer to be the keeper of another...but it would be fair to say if you aren't part of the solution, you aren't part of the solution...which is to say that if you are a good cop who sees a bad cop do something wrong, it IS incumbent upon you to say something, otherwise you kinda lose the high ground of claiming you do the right thing on the job. You aren't responsible for what the other guy did, but you are DAMN SURE responsible for your lack of action on the matter.
 
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bullseyelqcs

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Anyone who has been the victim of a violent crime (or who has a family member or friend who has been a victim) knows that the lesser of the two evils is the cop, not the violent, conscienceless individual that robbed or sucker punched or looted or raped or murdered.

Cops are no angels, but to whom do you turn to when you are a victim of the many, many, many bad individuals in this country?

You DO realize you just made a case for people like Frank Lucas to be around, don't you? Sure, he did some horrible things, but he did lots of good ones too with his ill gotten money. I guess that would be no different than doing a few horrible things and lots of good things with the power we allow officers to wield, right? Of course you are going to say no because one of those was a gangster and the other is a paid public official.....but if you would make that distinction, then how could you possibly be okay with letting the officers who aren't angels run amok simply because there are bad people out there?

And, in fact, the cops often do nothing to help you -- because you're not considered important enough or because they are afraid of being accused of being prejudiced against certain dear, sweet, perfectly innocent "children."

In most cases the cops won't do anything to help you because you don't make enough money, but that is a discussion for a different thread. Suffice it to say that your implication is plainly obvious and shows your slip just a little bit.

You ain't seen nothing yet! Wait until the 46th President is inaugurated in January. The police will be afraid to say even "Boo!" And the violent mobs will rule the streets.

Is it really too much to ask that officers not act like the criminals they are supposed to be protecting us from, and that if one of them DOES go that route, they be treated like the criminal they acted like?

Not all cops are bad, but the bad ones need to be dealt with. You seem to be arguing against that notion, and I can't for the life of me figure out why.
 

bullseyelqcs

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I think we all acknowledge both. the question is emphasis. Eliminating cop abuse completely would be a drop on the bucket of the main issue. I am all for reforming cops. But the incredible lack of focus on the main issues means nothing much is going to change until that changes. And It’s politically driven. Dems will not touch the real problem and most gop will not either for fear of being labeled racist.

So lets not deal with the easier to deal with problem until the one that has been baked into society is dealt with, right?

Solving the problems in police departments is a way easier fix than solving the societal problems that exist in the black community. When the rubber meets the road, you could deal with the problems of the police forces inside of a couple years. You institute new policies and anyone who doesn't want to abide by them can find other employment. Simple. The same can't be said of the ills of the black community. That could take a generation to fix, maybe more.

But to imply that until we fix the generational problem we don't deal with the other is simply foolish and shortsighted. Its almost like people are okay with cops acting like assholes or something.
 

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It is definitely not a binary choice and to treat it as one is stupid.

We could look at systems that have lower crime and less brutal police and use them as a model.
 

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TheParser

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Not all cops are bad, but the bad ones need to be dealt with. You seem to be arguing against that notion, and I can't for the life of me figure out why.



Thanks for your heartfelt opinion.


Yes, cops should be held accountable for their illegal actions, such as lying, planting evidence, and unjustified shootings.


But the most important thing is to control the very, very, very bad hoodlums who run amok in the streets (Do you know how horrible New York City is now? People sucker punched in the street. People raped on the subway. Stores looted with impunity. Sweet delicate "children" throwing water on cops. Etc. Certain folks are completely out of control because well-meaning liberals have never been affected by traumatic violent crime themselves.)

If I had to choose between cops & hoodlums, I would choose the former in a heartbeat. I do not especially like cops, but they are sure better than those conscienceless hoodlums who cause such traumatic suffering to victims and their families 24/7. It outrages me that some people want to make excuses for those hoodlums. Of course, there is nothing that a nobody like me can do about it except to be super vigilant when I am on the sidewalk. And, of course, I will vote for President Trump, which will be a total waste of time since the Deep State has arranged for his defeat.

Have a nice weekend!
 

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So lets not deal with the easier to deal with problem until the one that has been baked into society is dealt with, right?

Solving the problems in police departments is a way easier fix than solving the societal problems that exist in the black community. When the rubber meets the road, you could deal with the problems of the police forces inside of a couple years. You institute new policies and anyone who doesn't want to abide by them can find other employment. Simple. The same can't be said of the ills of the black community. That could take a generation to fix, maybe more.

But to imply that until we fix the generational problem we don't deal with the other is simply foolish and shortsighted. Its almost like people are okay with cops acting like assholes or something.
Well I never said not to deal with it. But no reason we can’t do both and emphasis on the tougher problem.
All the more reason to start emphasizing it. The sooner the better, yet it’s ignored.
 

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Who demonized the entire force? I surely didn't. If you think I did, please point me to where you think that happened.

The problem is the culture of the force, however. I don't think a good cop who says nothing is just as bad as a cop who crosses the line, but to say they aren't at least somewhat complicit would be inaccurate as well. The notion that not ratting out your partner is somehow more important than bringing a wrong to light has to change. The idea that you are a bad cop for telling the truth about the bad cops among you has to change as well.

This isn't one of those "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem" situations...because its not the job of one officer to be the keeper of another...but it would be fair to say if you aren't part of the solution, you aren't part of the solution...which is to say that if you are a good cop who sees a bad cop do something wrong, it IS incumbent upon you to say something, otherwise you kinda lose the high ground of claiming you do the right thing on the job. You aren't responsible for what the other guy did, but you are DAMN SURE responsible for your lack of action on the matter.

You don’t create a better police force by defunding the department. You need to train and vet the personnel but you will still get bad actors like any occupation.
 

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bullseyelqcs

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You don’t create a better police force by defunding the department. You need to train and vet the personnel but you will still get bad actors like any occupation.

And when you get those bad actors, standard procedure shouldnt be for the department to bend over backwards to protect those bad actors. Currently, that is exactly what happens.

You dont create a better police force by turning them into a military spec ops force either.
 

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And when you get those bad actors, standard procedure shouldnt be for the department to bend over backwards to protect those bad actors. Currently, that is exactly what happens.

You dont create a better police force by turning them into a military spec ops force either.

You can blame the democrat backed unions (except this year) for protecting these bad actors just like the democrat backed teachers union protect the bad teachers.
 

justabubba

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You can blame the democrat backed unions (except this year) for protecting these bad actors just like the democrat backed teachers union protect the bad teachers.

police unions are comprised of non-management police officers
teachers unions consist of teachers and non-management staff
i doubt all the police or all of the teachers are of but one political party

just like you at your job would not want a rogue employee to damage your work site due to inappropriate behavior, neither do the police and teachers
the union has negotiated a contract with management identifying the process to be followed when a possible rogue employment action has been identified
all management has to do to terminate that rogue employee is document the inappropriate behavior and to then show how that behavior is found deserving of termination according to the contract the parties have signed
the union has a fiduciary obligation, imposed by federal law, to represent the employee. they must represent the good employees and those that have gone rogue and assure the disciplinary procedure is followed, consistent with the labor-management contract
which then tells us management has not done its job if it is unable to demonstrate why a bad employee should be terminated
management's incompetence is not the union's fault
your blame is misplaced
 
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