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The whole of it needs to be struck down.
Boo!
Sincerely,
The Patriot Act.
:roll:
Historical note: Although people will remember that it was the Bush administration that rammed through the Patriot Act, it will, unfortunately, be forgotten that this was merely an extension to Bill Clinton's own so-called 1994 Antiterrorism Act. It takes two political parties to tango and take away your freedoms. It only takes the efforts of American citizens to get those freedoms back. Never forget - They don't own us. We own THEM.
Historical note: Although people will remember that it was the Bush administration that rammed through the Patriot Act, it will, unfortunately, be forgotten that this was merely an extension to Bill Clinton's own so-called 1994 Antiterrorism Act. It takes two political parties to tango and take away your freedoms. It only takes the efforts of American citizens to get those freedoms back. Never forget - They don't own us. We own THEM.
Article is here.
The whole of it needs to be struck down.
How does the patriot act address those technological advances and what do those advances have to do with complete suspension of a person's rights based on just one branch declaring them a terrorist suspect?Historical note: Actually, PATRIOT's foundation was the 1968 OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Streets Act as well as the 1978 FISA Act. A large amount of its provisions simply update 30-40 year old surveillance law to such modern day things as cell phones, web boards, email, pagers, and chat rooms. Amazingly, there is no public outcry for THOSE Bills to be struck down...and why would there? People don't bother to take time to research the PATRIOT act beyond a few websites or blogs and what's commonly said by the people that hate the act anyways so don't actually learn jack **** about it and most of the stuff they know they have faulty information on...so why would they even know the Acts that its based off of to protest those in the first place?
No, it really doesn't.
It needs to continue the path its going. Numerous of the more questionable portions of PATRIOT are set to sunset in the very near future and will be written off the books. Similarly, the few other places that are egregious are being challenged in court or having other legislature to remove them. Like just about every other time in our countries history, PATRIOT came about during a time when Security was at the utmost concern of the people and as the pendulum swings back towards freedom the portions of PATRIOT that are harmful will be removed. Meanwhile, the VAST majority of the Act that is useless, potentially vital, remain to update decades old law.
To strike down ALL of PATRIOT is like going out and shooting a man that has the Flu before he spreads it to someone else. Its huge over kill that is counter productive.
Technology has advanced leaps and bounds since 1968. Previously, tapping a single phone was simple...because at most they may be using their one phone or maybe a pay phone. Your two ways of communication was pretty much Phone or Mail. Now you have Pay Phones, Cell Phones (available through multiple carriers), Text Messaging, IM's, Email, Forum posts, Chat Rooms, (The last 4 of which accessible in public areas like libraries, internet cafe's, etc), faxes, on top of the other two things. By not addressing this update in technology you open up loopholes for both the law AND criminals to exploit.
The whole of it needs to be struck down.
I thought you said you believed in individual freedom and liberty, it is clear the patriot act is not good for that. Anyone who really believed in liberty would never support it.Yes, because we need terrorist strikes in America!
Most of you have no clue what the Patriot Act does, only read what you are told to angry about.. and since you get to sling mud at both America and Bush... you guys cheer it on.
I hope it DOES get struck down, all of it. I hope the PA and everything Bush did is stopped by Obama and the Dems in the house and senate.
And when terrorist start hitting us again..
Maybe America will wake up and quit listening to the kooks that screamed, whined and cried about the PA and caused it's demise.
I thought you said you believed in individual freedom and liberty, it is clear the patriot act is not good for that. Anyone who really believed in liberty would never support it.
I thought you said you believed in individual freedom and liberty, it is clear the patriot act is not good for that. Anyone who really believed in liberty would never support it.
Sure it does, gravely. To support it is to endanger liberty.I do believe in personal freedom and liberty. The PA doesn't hinder such.
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Most of you have no clue what the Patriot Act does
Yes, because we need terrorist strikes in America!
Most of you have no clue what the Patriot Act does, only read what you are told to angry about.. and since you get to sling mud at both America and Bush... you guys cheer it on.
I hope it DOES get struck down, all of it. I hope the PA and everything Bush did is stopped by Obama and the Dems in the house and senate.
And when terrorist start hitting us again..
Maybe America will wake up and quit listening to the kooks that screamed, whined and cried about the PA and caused it's demise.
ADK, its laughable that you tell someone they apparently haven't read it, and then go to one of the most biased sources of it as your lone source.
I suggest if you REALLY want to learn about PATRIOT do some actual research. Check some factual scholarly sources, read up on some experts, review the Bill itself and yes, think tanks too. Read stuff from protagonists for it, antagonists against it, and then most importantly those that seek to give an honest unbiased neutral review of it.
The ACLU IS a good source on it, but it is like looking at the NRA alone for information about Gun Control. You'd laugh someone out of the thread if all they ever quoted was pro-gun nuts statements about it. It is a spec on the greater scope of things.
Jfuh, I have not said all of PATRIOT is good and that ALL of it is just meant to update FISA and the OMNIBUS bill. Please, if I'm wrong, go pick it out of my original post. If you want, dig through the archives to find my thesis about it. I can assure you that you'll find there that I also do not make the accusation that everything in PATRIOT is good and that EVERYTHING is predicated on JUST updating FISA.
Indeed, I have said then, said in other threads, and said now that there are numerous provisions that need to go in PATRIOT. Be it by the Court, The Senate, or the sunsets already in place. The court case this thread is about is a great thing and is exactly what needs to be happening.
PATRIOT is a gigantic piece of legislation. It is huge, and it is broad sweeping. It is the type of thing that likely would have a hard time getting in simply due to the size of it in a normal climate, ESPECIALLY the currently climate. And I'm not even talking about all the amazingly questionable parts of it...I'm saying even the more benign things. Why? Because a piece of legislation this big is going to be glommed on in normal times by everyone to shove everything they can into it and dilute the bill, or cause it to likely fail as it can't get the support.
Lets say you've done major renovations on your house, add a whole extra wing. State of the art. You did it during a time when construction costs were extremely cheap, where as now they're amazingly high. However, out of this wing you have a few parts of the roof that are leaky and one room that is in need of full repair. Some of the wiring is bad. It'll take some time and money to fix it up, but in general the vast majority of the wing is sound.
So, do you destroy the entire wing of renovations you did and start completely anew because of some bad patches in the roof, faulty wiring, and a bad room....or do you fix those troubled spots and leave the core in tact, saving time and money to get the same results?
That's the same thing with PATRIOT. Hell, Russ Fiengold has even stated that 90% of the USA PATRIOT ACT was not just a sound, but needed legislation as of 2003. And that was prior to many of the questionable things sunsetting or being overturned/tweaked. You asked for a specific, check out section 204 which primary function was to change part of OMNIBUS TITLE III from "wire and oral" communications being able to be tapped to "Wire, oral, and electronic". Previously there were issues with emails and voice mails being able to be procured with a warrant as simply as phone records (previously you had to hope the phone you tapped was the one they used to get their voice mail messages). Another example of this is Section 216, which updates FISA information about pen registers and "trap and trace" devices. For those that don't know what these things are, they are devices that can be attached to a phone and records all the numbers dialed and incoming calls. 216 expands this, to allow for devices that record routing information and IP addresses, so that it can be used with new communications like email, chats, forums, and text messaging.
Other provisions are needed in the modern technological world we live in, but are however flawed all the same. They would be better to be edited rather than outright destroyed. Take section 206, dealing with the "roving wiretaps" everyone is afraid of. What these generally are is the ability to GET A WARRANT (it must have a warrant) to essentially wire tap the PERSON, instead of each particular thing they use. It must be shown that the things being tapped are routinely used by the person the tap is authorized on. This provision was put into place due to the prevalence and ease of access to cell phones now, and the vast away of new public means of accessing communication.
What's not commonly brought up about Section 206 when people like the ACLU mention it is the fact that it is not something new; it was authorized by congress in 1986 to be used for criminal investigations. The issue is when it was extended to be allowed with the FISA courts it was done at a less strict requirements than it is criminally.
Section 206 is not, in its nature, a BAD section. It is a needed one with the new technological era we are in. It should however be updated to the same level as in criminal procedures, which requires a much higher standard of ascertaining that the person in question is using the particular things being tapped.
Section 206 is an example of FISA law being updated to more modern times, and with a good foundation, but needing of some tweaks. Full removal of it would be foolish.
Let us continue.
Section 213, the infamous sneak and peak provision, is an example both of one that needs to be tweaked still (The "adverse result" which is the requirement for a judge to grant the warrant for such a search is too vague) and has been tweaked (The time that the government could wait before informing the person being searched was previously "reasonable time" but was changed to "30 days").
Section 505, about national security letters, is another that shows that its been continually tweaked to improve it rather than just scrap it. (removing libraries as targets and no longer requiring recipients to alert the FBI if they show the letter to an attorney). You can continue to see this provision has continued to be tweaked, such as the current court ruling we are discussing.
The biggest issue for me honestly is the definition of domestic terrorists in section 802, which I think needs a severe review and likely a near scrapping and rewrite.
I go with Feingold (I don't say that a lot), the vast majority of PATRIOT is good, sound, needed legislation needing very little if any real alterations. Another 5 to 8 percent is likely to need some major alterations, with a smaller percentage needing full out removal. However destroying the whole thing is chopping off your arm to solve a hangnail.
Most of our neighbors on the Left seem to have no idea what terrorists do. I have come to believe that it is such an unpleasant concept for them that they convince themselves that there really is no threat.. . .Most of you have no clue what the Patriot Act does. . .
Do you think the ACLU, which is full of lawyers, duh, has a lesser understanding of what the Patriot Act does? And if it manages to strike down parts of it do you think it's because they don't understand what it does and you do?...just asking. I mean you seem so sure of yourself but at the end of the day the ACLU doesn't go to court and take on Joe Schmoe. It takes on other lawyers who know the law just as well as the lawyers from the ACLU. Guys who know their ****. As opposed to most of us who are just here making small talk.
Zyphlin said:The ACLU IS a good source on it
Zyphlin said:Indeed, I have said then, said in other threads, and said now that there are numerous provisions that need to go in PATRIOT. Be it by the Court, The Senate, or the sunsets already in place. The court case this thread is about is a great thing and is exactly what needs to be happening.
Not at all. Did you actually read any of my post are just see me say something bad about the ACLU then just assume things based on your prejudices...just asking?
Cause apparently you didn't note that I said the ACLU WAS a good source, its just a poor one to use as its only source. I'll ask you the same thing I asked him Hatuey, and frame it in your frame of things. The NRA has lots of lawyers, they go to court about a lot of things. So do you think they are the end all be all about everything gun and gun control and can't possibly be wrong or have a slanted view of things based on an agenda?
As I said in my above post, I do think the ACLU is a good source. I actually used a fair bit of their statements about the Act in my thesis. I do not doubt in a second that their lawyers focusing on this have a much better handle on the PATRIOT Act than I do, I have no trouble admitting that. It'd be foolish not to and fool hearty. However I also believe that the ACLU has a very specific agenda, and that lawyers and really anyone with in depth knowledge of something and a specific agenda can very easily spin and manipulate the way in which they present information to make it seem that their agenda is correct.
This is why in my above post I urged him not to use just the ACLU and just Anti-Patriot Act sources as the only basis on how to judge and interpret the act, just as I would say don't use just the NRA to decide what the facts are about gun control.
Would you not agree with that thought Hautey?
Well when the NRA takes on the ACLU or whomever and wins then it seems to me like they have a point. Lawyers involved in big cases aren't exactly improvised regardless of where they come from. ACLU, NRA, Government. Whomever. So I guess my answer remains consistent. If the NRA wins a case then they win it fair and square. Till then then what exactly is the issue?
Pretty much every civil rights group has an agenda. The Civil Rights Movement had an agenda. Even the KKK had and have an agenda. The only group in all this that one should expect to be unbiased is the government or judges. So your point is naive at best. If the ACLU believes the Patriot Act is unconstitutional and works to take it down because it doesn't believe it is in accord with what it considers to be the civil liberties it was created to defend then why not strike it down using legal arguments?
Really? So which sources should he use to support his arguments against the Patriot Act? The only neutral source I can think of is the act itself uninterpreted and even then he'd need the arguments. So why shouldn't he use arguments he thinks would be useful i.e. those by the ACLU?
This is just a low tactic that many people use to avoid debate; they dismiss certain sources out of hand.ADK, its laughable that you tell someone they apparently haven't read it, and then go to one of the most biased sources of it as your lone source.
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