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Court halts Calif. gay marriages pending appeal

Exactly how does society benefit by denying gay marriage? This should be good.

Thought ya'd never ask..

I developed this argument in the basement. I know, I know, people don't argue in the basement,, Who knew?? :)

I would have said, your Honor, it depends greatly on a number of factors, and especially relevant is the way, and by which criteria you decide to rule on the issue. If you rule on this issue using gender as your key guiding factor, then please consider the following. Procreation doesn't end with the act of laying the seed, simply having the ability to have a child isn't the only thing involved in procreation. The fundamental right to bear children is deeply rooted in all of society from every generation, and has been for 4.5 million years. However, the word pro create is important. It imparts special meaning. The "pro", in procreate is germane to the nuclear family. Meaning that both able bodies, formally, and consciously give their affirmation that they wish to consummate the family unit by creating another human, and to raise that child in an environment that equally recognizes the unique function of their own families, and their posterity. The "blood-line" is essentially routed, and perhaps even intrinsic to the wanting, and longing for a family, to continue the line. It is even axiomatic to the function of DNA, and without our own conscious control.

It is somewhat suspect that a homosexual, can produce a child equally similar, and with another homosexual that closely matches, or even resembles that, that can be produced by an opposite sex coupling. In an opposite gender coupling, the urge to procreate is not bound by any intrinsic obstacles. However, in same sex couplings the desire to share in procreation is not, and cannot, be mutually shared physically, similar to that of true blood line opposite sex couplings. One must question whether intrinsic urges exist if one partner must fundamentally accept the inherent difficulties in bearing a child for the other, if blood lines, and the basis for child rearing at all is based on the intrinsic desire to pass on ones blood line to the next generation. Therefore, since the state is a manifestation of the unique contributions of opposite sex couplings, it is incumbent on the state to value them over all else, in fact place special recognition for the contribution to the states posterity, the heterosexual union provides, unique to any other gender-couplings, or sexual orientation.

Your Honor we must accept that in our culture, gender doesn't stop at ones sex. In fact, genders play roles in the procreative process. It has been shown, and accepted in every study ever done on marriage that children do best with a mother and a father present, the respondents will stipulate to opposing council, and to the court that, there isn't a lot of data on the impact of same sex families, however, children need, and are of wanting for examples of how they should identify themselves, as they grow. There are unique qualities a female, and male presence impart on the psychological health of a child, in areas such as their identity. Children of broken homes, or dysfunctional ones, tend to get into more trouble in all areas reflecting poor psychological health. It is the position of the respondents that, same sex couplings share no intrinsic qualities that are present in opposite sex couplings with respect to procreation, and, leaves it to the court to decide whether this value to society reflect inexorably on the efficacy of a same sex coupling to the extent equal to the benefits of the opposite sex coupling. Further, it is the opinion of the respondents that, by intrinsic qualities alone, the same sex coupling is incapable of proving the same benefit to society, by way of biological, and psychological dysfunction to the family unit, if one presumes to conclude that the same sex coupling is unaware of the benefits the opposite sex coupling impart on the success of society by simply being an opposite sex coupling.

Thoughts? Careful councilor, I'm a couple of steps ahead of you.. :)


Tim-
 
Becasue I'm not predisposed to being black, or latino, or male or female.. THAT's, why it is irrelevant..!!


Tim-

Perhaps what you meant to say is that you are not prejudiced against blacks, latinos, etc......and want to view your prejudice and bigotry against gays as irrelevant or otherwise "justified".

Its ok....you are in good company. Those who felt the same about blacks felt just as "justified" as the bigots of today.
 
Thought ya'd never ask..

I developed this argument in the basement. I know, I know, people don't argue in the basement,, Who knew?? :)



Thoughts? Careful councilor, I'm a couple of steps ahead of you.. :)


Tim-

I think you mean a couple of miles behind.

There is a good reason why the pro-prop 8 lawyers didn't focus on procreation as their argument like yourself....because it is a losing issue.

You would have to limit marriage to people who sign a contract that says that they will procreate and void it if they do not.

As for your psychological arguments, studies show exactly the opposite.

A little hint: If the professional lawyers have rejected your argument....there is probably a good reason they did.
 
Perhaps what you meant to say is that you are not prejudiced against blacks, latinos, etc......and want to view your prejudice and bigotry against gays as irrelevant or otherwise "justified".

Its ok....you are in good company. Those who felt the same about blacks felt just as "justified" as the bigots of today.

But it's not bigotry.. You don't even know how to properly apply the word, apparently?


Tim-
 
But it's not bigotry.. You don't even know how to properly apply the word, apparently?


Tim-

Perhaps it is you that is having problems with the basic English language.

When you believe that you are entitled to rights/privileges that others are not....THAT is bigotry.

Its really not that difficult of a concept.
 
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I think you mean a couple of miles behind.

There is a good reason why the pro-prop 8 lawyers didn't focus on procreation as their argument like yourself....because it is a losing issue.

You would have to limit marriage to people who sign a contract that says that they will procreate and void it if they do not.

As for your psychological arguments, studies show exactly the opposite.

A little hint: If the professional lawyers have rejected your argument....there is probably a good reason they did.

Not at all.. In law, as I'm sure you're aware, there is often a presumption of a substantive claim. It is true until shown untrue. By simply being a heterosexual coupling, the state presumes that procreation will ensue. There is no intrinsic presumption that a homosexual couple will procreate.

There.. YOU LOSE.. :)

Tim-
 
Perhaps it is you that is having problems with the basic English language.

When you believe that you are entitled to rights/privileges that others are not....THAT is bigotry.

Its really not that difficult of a concept.

No it's discrimination..

You're not a very good lawyer are you? I mean, I ask in all seriousness..


Tim-
 
Not at all.. In law, as I'm sure you're aware, there is often a presumption of a substantive claim. It is true until shown untrue. By simply being a heterosexual coupling, the state presumes that procreation will ensue. There is no intrinsic presumption that a homosexual couple will procreate.

There.. YOU LOSE.. :)

Tim-

Sorry....but you have just demonstrated that you have zero understanding of equal protection analysis. Why you just wrote is completely wrong.
When the Courts look at Constitutional challenges they first determine whether there is a right/privilege that is being infringed upon. Then they decide the nature of that right/privilege (is it a fundamental right or not). Then they look at the status of the group affected and determine what level of scrutiny to apply to their analysis.
Depending on the level that they choose, they determine whether the state meets its burden to justify the differentiation in treatment. Depending on the level, the Court requires the GOVERNMENT to demonstrate either a legitimate, important or compelling state interest that is furthered by the different treatment.

So sir......sorry.....but you lose.

Nice try though.
 
No it's discrimination..

You're not a very good lawyer are you? I mean, I ask in all seriousness..


Tim-

What you think "Bigotry" is?

Discrimination is often the end result of "bigotry", however, bigotry often exists without any overt discrimination.

You might want to consult a dictionary.
 
Sorry....but you have just demonstrated that you have zero understanding of equal protection analysis. Why you just wrote is completely wrong.
When the Courts look at Constitutional challenges they first determine whether there is a right/privilege that is being infringed upon. Then they decide the nature of that right/privilege (is it a fundamental right or not). Then they look at the status of the group affected and determine what level of scrutiny to apply to their analysis.
Depending on the level that they choose, they determine whether the state meets its burden to justify the differentiation in treatment. Depending on the level, the Court requires the GOVERNMENT to demonstrate either a legitimate, important or compelling state interest that is furthered by the different treatment.

So sir......sorry.....but you lose.

Nice try though.

Nonesense.. I applied my arguement to the exact question asked of a federal judge at the States position on a matter crucial to the question of discrimination. I answered it, even though the State of CA could not. Now, do you want to reply with a rebuttle, or would you rather argue over your qualifications as a lawyer?


Tim-
 
What you think "Bigotry" is?

Discrimination is often the end result of "bigotry", however, bigotry often exists without any overt discrimination.

You might want to consult a dictionary.

Again, nonesense? Wow? Bigotry is the holding of ones position in-spite of facts to the contrary. Discrimination is the prejudice towards something, or an object, with justification for doing so.


Sheesh...???


Tim-
 
Nonesense.. I applied my arguement to the exact question asked of a federal judge at the States position on a matter crucial to the question of discrimination. I answered it, even though the State of CA could not. Now, do you want to reply with a rebuttle, or would you rather argue over your qualifications as a lawyer?


Tim-

Well.....seeing that you have no understanding of the analysis...it would prove pretty futile to try to educate you on the issue while trying to debate the issue.
There is a very good reason why the lawyers supporting prop 8 didn't raise your failed argument. It wouldn't pass Constitutional muster. Because you don't understand the analysis, it would be impossible to engage you in an intelligent debate on the issue. Sorry.....but I don't have time to teach you the ropes....but go back to my last post and you can perhaps learn a little about the way Constitutional analysis works.
 
Again, nonesense? Wow? Bigotry is the holding of ones position in-spite of facts to the contrary. Discrimination is the prejudice towards something, or an object, with justification for doing so.


Sheesh...???


Tim-

Wow....you are so off....

Like I said....consult a dictionary. They exist for a reason.
 
Well.....seeing that you have no understanding of the analysis...it would prove pretty futile to try to educate you on the issue while trying to debate the issue.
There is a very good reason why the lawyers supporting prop 8 didn't raise your failed argument. It wouldn't pass Constitutional muster. Because you don't understand the analysis, it would be impossible to engage you in an intelligent debate on the issue. Sorry.....but I don't have time to teach you the ropes....but go back to my last post and you can perhaps learn a little about the way Constitutional analysis works.

The "State" needed to "justify" a vested interest in opposite sex marriage. My argument does exactly that. Now run away little man, next?



Tim-
 
The "State" needed to "justify" a vested interest in opposite sex marriage. My argument does exactly that. Now run away little man, next?



Tim-

One could also use that same argument for SSM. LGBT couples that enter into a marriage are more likely to adopt children, use artificial insemination, a surrogate etc.
 
Wow....you are so off....

Like I said....consult a dictionary. They exist for a reason.

big·ot·ry   /ˈbɪgətri/ Show Spelled[big-uh-tree] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ries
.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

If they were affected by facts they wouldn't be stubborn now would they?

To discriminate is to make a judgement based on ANY one, two, or more criteria, that reflects the overall opinion of the one making the judgment. In the context of this debate, I am neither a bigot, nor am I discriminating without several criteria. I feel them justified, you do not. However, you have not shown why not?

Now if that doesn't sit well with you, then so be it.. I'm ok with that. In other words, I don't care.. :)


Tim-
 
One could also use that same argument for SSM. LGBT couples that enter into a marriage are more likely to adopt children, use artificial insemination, a surrogate etc.

Do you have evidence that this is so? Is it intrinsic to suggest that this would be the case?


Tim-
 
If they were affected by facts they wouldn't be stubborn now would they?

To discriminate is to make a judgement based on ANY one, two, or more criteria, that reflects the overall opinion of the one making the judgment. In the context of this debate, I am neither a bigot, nor am I discriminating without several criteria. I feel them justified, you do not. However, you have not shown why not?

Now if that doesn't sit well with you, then so be it.. I'm ok with that. In other words, I don't care.. :)


Tim-



The anti-black bigots felt just as justified. It didn't make them any more correct than you. Sorry....just calling it as it is.
 
Again: How does this affect you?


Stop asking such... dishonest questions Chevy, really. Does it have to "Personally" affect me for me to act? I never drink and drive, does that mean I shouldn't support DWI Laws? Cause after all, they don't "Affect me".

I could go on all day with how silly you are being.
 
Re: 9th Circuit Grants Stay Pending Appeal in Prop. 8 Case

Could it be that someone is listening to the will of the people?
No. The 9th didn't rule on the case, only granted a stay of the lower court's ruling. A reasonable move considering all the marriages that would be in legal limbo if a higher court were to overturn.

But when this "most liberal appelate court in the country" DOES rule (most likey that Prop-8 DOES violate Equal Protection and Due Process, I haven't heard a single expert come up with a resonable arguement why they wouldn't), it would legalize gay marriage in California. And Washington. And Oregon. And Arizona. And Idaho. And Montana. And Nevada.

In fact this is probably WORSE news for Prop-8 supporters because, to me at least, it signals an intent for this "most liberal" court to take on the case.
 
Stop asking such... dishonest questions Chevy, really. Does it have to "Personally" affect me for me to act? I never drink and drive, does that mean I shouldn't support DWI Laws? Cause after all, they don't "Affect me".

I could go on all day with how silly you are being.

Just because you don't drink and drive doesn't mean it doesn't affect you. When other people drink and drive on the same roads as you, guess what it affects you!

And it's not a dishonest question, how does it affect you?
 
Stop asking such... dishonest questions Chevy, really. Does it have to "Personally" affect me for me to act? I never drink and drive, does that mean I shouldn't support DWI Laws? Cause after all, they don't "Affect me".

I could go on all day with how silly you are being.

Bad analogy. When you can show how gay marriage is personally dangerous in the same manner as drunk driving then perhaps you will have an argument.
 
The anti-black bigots felt just as justified. It didn't make them any more correct than you. Sorry....just calling it as it is.

Yes but I don't agree with the "anti-blacks" so how exactly is it relevant to my argument? Boy do I need to walk you through this? Do you have a rebuttle as opposing councilor, or not?


Tim-
 
Absolutely!

Its nice to see the courts stand up for the rights of 7 million voters :)

Yep, let's let the masses impose their will on the minority. If we act quickly, before we become a majority minority country, we can take away the right to vote for those of us who aren't white. When the Declaration says "all men are created equal", they mean all people are equal under the law. It doesn't say men who have the same sexual orientation or color or IQ or anything else.
 
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