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Could this be true about the Roe decision?

The state ballot box. I thought I was clear, but that's what I meant. If it's returned to the states, rights will be decided at the state ballot box. Our rights come from the US Constitution, not state ballot boxes.

But the constitution itself, as well as its amendments, are established by consent of the states and their ballot boxes.
 
But the constitution itself, as well as its amendments, are established by consent of the states and their ballot boxes.
Then it would seem an amendment is needed to repeal a right.

You're deflecting. The US Constitution is supreme. That is what the states have consented to.
 
Of course. This is sheer common sense as a practical matter. But when the chips are down and those mistakes happen, do/should we allow abortions to take place?
As pro choice, yes. People do make mistakes. Same with criminal situations, it should not be one way only. (common sense)

With that for clarity. My point though is that the intent should NOT be black and white. i.e all liberals want Abortion full term and all Conservatives want NO abortions period.

Again if we actually took more responsible actions to teach, nurture and curb our youth and current generations/culture. We could reduce the need to even legislate as there would be responsibility at play rather than oops I got drunk at a party...or "I regret this decision with this guy".....

Right now.... "the option" is an excuse for irresponsible actions with NO consequence. Which is a horrible culture to begin with.
 
As pro choice, yes. People do make mistakes. Same with criminal situations, it should not be one way only. (common sense)

With that for clarity. My point though is that the intent should NOT be black and white. i.e all liberals want Abortion full term and all Conservatives want NO abortions period.

Again if we actually took more responsible actions to teach, nurture and curb our youth and current generations/culture. We could reduce the need to even legislate as there would be responsibility at play rather than oops I got drunk at a party...or "I regret this decision with this guy".....

Right now.... "the option" is an excuse for irresponsible actions with NO consequence. Which is a horrible culture to begin with.
That sounds reasonable and seems worth a try. I'm sure it sounded reasonable when it was first discovered/suggested, way back prehistory.

Teen sex is normal and women have been aborting fetuses forever. And since before forever, reasonable people have been suggesting a more responsible culture of child-rearing. It's not going to happen. I think it's much wiser to accept certain human behaviors and find responsible ways to facilitate the behavior rather than what amounts to a pipe dream about changing common, normal, genetic human activity.
 
Then it would seem an amendment is needed to repeal a right.

Or establish one.

You're deflecting. The US Constitution is supreme. That is what the states have consented to.

You said rights come from the US constitution, and they do, but those rights are established by state ballot boxes. I don't know how that's debatable.
 
Or establish one.
It has been established since 1973 and confirmed in 1992, among other cases.
You said rights come from the US constitution, and they do, but those rights are established by state ballot boxes. I don't know how that's debatable.
Stop. You know damn well what I mean. Playing word games isn't interesting.
 
As pro choice, yes. People do make mistakes. Same with criminal situations, it should not be one way only. (common sense)

With that for clarity. My point though is that the intent should NOT be black and white. i.e all liberals want Abortion full term and all Conservatives want NO abortions period.

Well it has to be black and white in the abstract I think. The two positions are irreconcilable.

Disclaimer: I don't mean to sound condescending with the following:

Most Americans don't want late term abortion, and also don't want it heavily restricted in the early term. The debates you see here don't reflect the attitudes of most Americans, but exactly those extremes you describe.

I think you've allowed your observation of interminable internet arguments among nuts like us to inform your general impressions of liberals and conservatives. :) And that is simply a mistake.

Again if we actually took more responsible actions to teach, nurture and curb our youth and current generations/culture. We could reduce the need to even legislate as there would be responsibility at play rather than oops I got drunk at a party...or "I regret this decision with this guy".....

Right now.... "the option" is an excuse for irresponsible actions with NO consequence. Which is a horrible culture to begin with.

I think that's perfect good sense that most people exercise in their daily lives. But here, people like me say, "Even if all of this occurs, we still cannot permit abortions outside of a threat to the mother's life," and people on the other side say, "See? Your real motive is just to control women."

Shrug.
 
It has been established since 1973 and confirmed in 1992, among other cases.

Whereas Plessy protected segregation for 60 years before finally being dislodged.

Stop. You know damn well what I mean. Playing word games isn't interesting.

I'm responding to what you said as best I understand it. I don't play word games. Well, or at least I'm not.
 
That sounds reasonable and seems worth a try. I'm sure it sounded reasonable when it was first discovered/suggested, way back prehistory.

Teen sex is normal and women have been aborting fetuses forever. And since before forever, reasonable people have been suggesting a more responsible culture of child-rearing. It's not going to happen. I think it's much wiser to accept certain human behaviors and find responsible ways to facilitate the behavior rather than what amounts to a pipe dream about changing common, normal, genetic human activity.
"Teen sex is normal"

This is a question of culture? Normal for who? I dont consider it normal. I accept it happens, but I do not accept it as normal. Nor would I advocate or allow it as normal?

Women have been aborting fetuses forever, yes I agree. But again the reasons are different now in the 21st century. compared to years past. I would love to see statistics of abortions done due to regret or irresponsibility rather than an uncontrolled or unforeseen mistake. I would venture to guess the culture is WORSE than people want to admit.

"Its not going to happen" seems like the attitude for which we have ended up in this mess in the first place. Much like how congress acts on all things important. Budget/Economy, Immigration and now Roe v Wade. Throw their hands up and scream but defer, defer, and yups, defer....kick that can down the road........

Society now chooses to complain about things YET unwilling to actually do anything "responsible about it". I just gave an example, not to fix the whole system. But to START somewhere. Something reasonable where we as adults have talks with our children. Or Guardians speak with those they are to look after.

Government programs that enrich the lives of people that make poor decisions rather than telling people its ok you can just have abortion and we will pay for it.

This is one of the reason why I put the 4 fundamentals of Firearm safety in my signature. I want to start somewhere and hopefully people read it every time I post to recognize that I emphasize responsibility FIRST! I can be a 2A proponent, but also act responsible and respectful.

Saying its a pipedream "might" be true but doing NOTHING about it and saying there is nothing we can do about it, in my opinion is worse (respectfully of course.)

Things will change, so we should do something... but this extremism is just sad. NO people are NOT losing their rights, the States are given the power to make these decisions, exactly where the intent of voting actually applies. Not dictated by a government or 9 judges......
 
Whereas Plessy protected segregation for 60 years before finally being dislodged.
The difference being Plessy changed nothing. This decision repeals a right.
I'm responding to what you said as best I understand it. I don't play word games. Well, or at least I'm not.
Then you misunderstand.

The US Constitution is supreme. State legislatures don't have the power to decide whether they follow the Constitution or not. It is required. That is what the states, through the ballot box, consented to.

Ironically, Alito's words are,

The Alito draft repeats its core holding several times: The right recognized in Roe v. Wade “has no basis in the Constitution’s text or in our Nation’s history.”

You know what really has no basis in the Constitution or the nation's history? The repeal of rights. Our history and Constitution are that of expansion of rights.

This is the coming fascism. You should be concerned.

 
"Teen sex is normal"
Uh...yes?

This is a question of culture?
No. It's a function of biology. Attempts at fighting nature are fruitless and foolish. The cultural aspect is our modern world. The historic practice has been sex at puberty, like every other living organism on the planet. Age of consent laws in Medieval England were 10 and 12.

Things are different now. The industrial revolution changed all that, and now we need 16 years of schooling to even consider success needed to raise a family. Agrarian societies have no such requirements. Have as many children as you can, as soon as you can.
Normal for who? I dont consider it normal. I accept it happens, but I do not accept it as normal. Nor would I advocate or allow it as normal?

Women have been aborting fetuses forever, yes I agree. But again the reasons are different now in the 21st century. compared to years past. I would love to see statistics of abortions done due to regret or irresponsibility rather than an uncontrolled or unforeseen mistake. I would venture to guess the culture is WORSE than people want to admit.

"Its not going to happen" seems like the attitude for which we have ended up in this mess in the first place. Much like how congress acts on all things important. Budget/Economy, Immigration and now Roe v Wade. Throw their hands up and scream but defer, defer, and yups, defer....kick that can down the road........

Society now chooses to complain about things YET unwilling to actually do anything "responsible about it". I just gave an example, not to fix the whole system. But to START somewhere. Something reasonable where we as adults have talks with our children. Or Guardians speak with those they are to look after.

Government programs that enrich the lives of people that make poor decisions rather than telling people its ok you can just have abortion and we will pay for it.

This is one of the reason why I put the 4 fundamentals of Firearm safety in my signature. I want to start somewhere and hopefully people read it every time I post to recognize that I emphasize responsibility FIRST! I can be a 2A proponent, but also act responsible and respectful.

Saying its a pipedream "might" be true but doing NOTHING about it and saying there is nothing we can do about it, in my opinion is worse (respectfully of course.)

Things will change, so we should do something... but this extremism is just sad. NO people are NOT losing their rights, the States are given the power to make these decisions, exactly where the intent of voting actually applies. Not dictated by a government or 9 judges......
 
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Serious question, which every debate on this evades. The Left says we are taking rights away... the right says we are killing babies. So extreme...which no one will ever concede obviously, but is so stupid to begin with.


Why are we not addressing something much simpler. for the MAJORITY of cases; (not all)

Does a women and man have the right to choose their physical interaction? Yes or No?
Do they have a right to have a contraceptives of their choice? Yes or No? (go to the doctor, or a drug store down the street a 3 pack is $5 a 12pack is $10. a friend told me long ago, if you are NOT mature enough to got the store to get protection, you are not mature enough to have sex.

For the majority of cases its unwanted pregnancy, not downplaying as there are certainly cases where a women did NOT have a choice and I hope the person of such criminal act is castrated and charged to the full extent of the law and never sees the light of day. But the majority of unwanted pregnancies are due to POOR CHOICES. As that is what it was... Unwanted pregnancies. If it was planned or wanted they would not have to worry about an abortion and neither right nor left has an argument in that case period.


Why are we NOT teaching the public of their selfish, self indulgent choices, or Irresponsible choices. This is not to attack or to demean, but to be blunt. People make mistakes, but for the most part, both parties consented to a physical engagement. The risk inherent to unprotected sex is a transmission of a disease or unwanted pregnancy. THIS action is WELL before "taking" a women's right away. A women has a right to not have intercourse with someone they don't want a baby with. Nor is it Killing babies if the person just uses protection or responsible thinking PRIOR to engaging with another person.

You dont want your abortion right taken away, Why even worry about that? Why are you having unprotected sex with a person you DONT want to marry or have children with in the first place....... Well before womens rights?


*Flame suit activated*.........

I am pro choice for the most part, but I am not Pro stupid.... we have free will and free choice.... I have seen MANY irresponsible people... make bad choices. Thats on THEM and should not be a burden on others for their poor decisions.
Who could resist a compelling argument like this?
 
I heard a talking head on one of the talking head shows state that this was the first time in the modern era that the Supreme Court had taken away a right from a group, rather then held to a right or increased the scope of a right. I do not know enough bout the history of the court to know if the talking head knew what he was saying or just blabbing. Anyone out there able to let me know
I don't know about that, but it certainly seems as if the 3 justices Trump appointed are going against their statements to congress during confirmation that Roe v. Wade was established and precedent, or however that works.
 
The difference being Plessy changed nothing. This decision repeals a right.

Not the point. Age of precedent is irrelevant.

Then you misunderstand.

The US Constitution is supreme. State legislatures don't have the power to decide whether they follow the Constitution or not. It is required. That is what the states, through the ballot box, consented to.

I thought you meant rights aren't decided on at the ballot box, and they definitely are.

Ironically, Alito's words are,

The Alito draft repeats its core holding several times: The right recognized in Roe v. Wade “has no basis in the Constitution’s text or in our Nation’s history.”

You know what really has no basis in the Constitution or the nation's history? The repeal of rights. Our history and Constitution are that of expansion of rights.

The issue of rights is a question for democratic deliberation. If we wish to establish or repeal rights, that's up to the people's representatives.

Not the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS had no business fabricating a right to an abortion, and if Roe is overturned they have corrected that at last.

This is the coming fascism. You should be concerned.


I actually somewhat agree with the author. If Roe is overturned, I don't think we can long sustain a system of slave states and free states. Eventually, to paraphrase Lincoln, it's got to be one or the other, everywhere.

I don't think it'll end in civil war, but I do think it'll end with a constitutional amendment in one direction or the other. State and federal laws simply won't suffice on a question like this.
 
Who will then be allowed to takes rights away from women. Same thing.

The issue of rights is up to democracies to deliberate and decide on, not oligarchies to impose from the top.
 
I wonder what you make of efforts in a few states to 'criminalize' assistance creating a broadly worded ' aide or abetting' crime designed specifically to target those who drive a woman traveling to another state or to/from the clinic, or help finance the abortion, including the biological father or the parents? I mean one of your solutions above was that leisurely and scenic drive to another state. Let's not minimize what this represents. This is basically a declaration of a 'civil war' between pro-life and pro choice states.
The only solution I am proposing is legislation. If this is decided by elected officials and not the judiciary, it will ultimately be up to voters to decide. This has been the best course of action for 50 years. The fact that legislation has been avoided has led to this because of the unsettled debates around this issue.

If states choose to criminalize this, that is because it is supported by the constituents that are voting candidates into office. Not all constituents would agree and they have the same choices I have living in an area where almost all governance is contrary to my own philosophy. I can deal with it, I can work to change it, or I can move.
 
And what is it that makes you think that?
It's on the Conservative wish list, and just like abortion the Supremes could say it's up to the States to decide if they want to restict marriage or not.
 
They absolutely are. Every amendment in the bill of rights was subjected to the ballot box. If not at the ballot box, who should decide on our rights?
rights are decided by the constitution, and the only way to change those is through amendments to the constitution as written.
 
It's on the Conservative wish list, and just like abortion the Supremes could say it's up to the States to decide if they want to restict marriage or not.



Edited......I originally posted that it was unlikely that the Supreme Court would overturn federal law. I incorrectly believed there was a federal law legalizing same sex marriage.

I just did some research and I was wrong in assuming there was a federal law allowing same sex marriage. It was a Supreme Court ruling that States could not ban same sex marriage. So absolutely this group of judges could, and would, overturn that ruling and send it back to the States to determine if they wanted same sex marriage. Very likely to happen in fact given the draft clearly indicated that anything not enshrined in the Constitution belongs to the State.
 
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It's on the Conservative wish list, and just like abortion the Supremes could say it's up to the States to decide if they want to restict marriage or not.
Specifically, which conservatives in the House, Senate, or serving as Governor - is it on? My point is I think you're just inserting unnecessary drama.
 
Not the SCOTUS. The SCOTUS had no business fabricating a right to an abortion, and if Roe is overturned they have corrected that at last.
Yep!
 
The reason for the leak has been a puzzlement to me but I think I now have a notion as to why. The draft contains very strong language stating that anything not specifically guaranteed in the Constitution belongs to the States. I think this may have been leaked because someone was concerned that particular wording would be softened or eliminated and wanted the American people to see what direction this court would take on future issues/rights not specifically guaranteed in the Constitution.....like same sex marriage! If that ruling is overturned many States will outright ban same sex marriage.
 
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