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Corrupting the meaning of "obstruction of justice"

joko104

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Bob Mueller has taken the already corrupt usage of "obstruction of justice" all the way to a true police state meaning with Manafort, regardless of how guilty Manafort is. Manafort from the start has been kept in solitary confinement even since before any conviction and starting with a secret indictment in which no defense was even allowed to be offered. Solitary confinement is torture (you don't think so, empty a walk-in closet and see how long you can stand to stay in it) and this was NEVER appropriate for essentially an old tax case and process case not involving any violence.

But it is far worse. The job of a prosecutor is NOT to prosecute whatever it takes - and crush anyone who dares exercise their constitutional right to remain silent. The job of a prosecutor is to see that justice is served. This means protecting citizens rights and the rights of the innocent more than it means putting people in prison.

Yet no one now grasps that "obstruction of justice" most of all SHOULD mean denial of protections and rights of the innocent. It SHOULD mean protecting people from corrupt officials that use techniques to bully people into giving up their right to remain silent.

With Mueller, the concept that SHOULD most of all mean protecting the innocent and protecting people's legal rights, rather than his view of imprison, terrify, and destroy people's lives to force them to give up their rights and force them to plead guilt or the unlimited power of a corrupt prosecutor will destroy their lives even if ultimately found not guilty.
 

Rexedgar

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Paul Manafort is in solitary confinement for his own protection.
 

StillBallin75

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holy **** the degree to which you will engage in mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible is absolutely incredible.
 

MrWonka

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Bob Mueller has taken the already corrupt usage of "obstruction of justice" all the way to a true police state meaning with Manafort, regardless of how guilty Manafort is. Manafort from the start has been kept in solitary confinement even since before any conviction and starting with a secret indictment in which no defense was even allowed to be offered. Solitary confinement is torture (you don't think so, empty a walk-in closet and see how long you can stand to stay in it) and this was NEVER appropriate for essentially an old tax case and process case not involving any violence.

But it is far worse. The job of a prosecutor is NOT to prosecute whatever it takes - and crush anyone who dares exercise their constitutional right to remain silent. The job of a prosecutor is to see that justice is served. This means protecting citizens rights and the rights of the innocent more than it means putting people in prison.

Yet no one now grasps that "obstruction of justice" most of all SHOULD mean denial of protections and rights of the innocent. It SHOULD mean protecting people from corrupt officials that use techniques to bully people into giving up their right to remain silent.

With Mueller, the concept that SHOULD most of all mean protecting the innocent and protecting people's legal rights, rather than his view of imprison, terrify, and destroy people's lives to force them to give up their rights and force them to plead guilt or the unlimited power of a corrupt prosecutor will destroy their lives even if ultimately found not guilty.

Wow. I just don't know how you can say these things with a straight face and expect to be taken seriously. You've got a President who is using tear gas on women and children who are trying to escape war and persecution. You've got children separated from their families and being locked in cages. You've got ICE going around behaving like Hitler's Gestapo, and you're freaking out about the fact that some rich asshole who was convicted on... what was it again... 12 different felony charges has to actually do the time for his crimes.
 

joko104

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Paul Manafort is in solitary confinement for his own protection.

No he's not nor has that been given as the reason. The reason given was to deny him the right to talk to witnesses for preparing his defense, while the prosecutor any anyone else can talk to any witnesses to prepare for prosecution. The real reason is to psychologically break him to force him to say whatever they want him to say. Even a convicted person still has the right to remain silent. Mueller's tactic if the destroy anyone who exercises that right. THAT is official oppression and Mueller should be prosecuted for obstruction of justice for doing so.
 

joko104

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Wow. I just don't know how you can say these things with a straight face and expect to be taken seriously. You've got a President who is using tear gas on women and children who are trying to escape war and persecution. You've got children separated from their families and being locked in cages. You've got ICE going around behaving like Hitler's Gestapo, and you're freaking out about the fact that some rich asshole who was convicted on... what was it again... 12 different felony charges has to actually do the time for his crimes.

Nice try at diversion. Please link to your ranting about Obama tear gassing and separating children. You can't, can you? What you posted has nothing to do with what I posted, other than you posting your hatred of rich people and so think the constitution should be thrown out in regards to rich people.
 

joko104

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holy **** the degree to which you will engage in mental gymnastics to defend the indefensible is absolutely incredible.

Solitary confinement is virtually never justifiable. The only exception would be an exorbitantly violent criminal who poses a real threat to other inmates. The claim this is to protect Manafort is a obvious lie as the likes of Bernie Madoff who screwed massive numbers of people isn't in solitary, nor do they put cops who are imprisoned in solitary to protect them.

It is never justifiable for anyone in law enforcement or prosecutor to try to use intimidation, threats or any other tactic to force someone to either give up their right to remain silent or to try to force anyone to take a deal.
 

Hawkeye10

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Solitary confinement is virtually never justifiable. The only exception would be an exorbitantly violent criminal who poses a real threat to other inmates. The claim this is to protect Manafort is a obvious lie as the likes of Bernie Madoff who screwed massive numbers of people isn't in solitary, nor do they put cops who are imprisoned in solitary to protect them.

It is never justifiable for anyone in law enforcement or prosecutor to try to use intimidation, threats or any other tactic to force someone to either give up their right to remain silent or to try to force anyone to take a deal.

Gaming the system and running over citizens to get the result they want has long been standard procedure, and almost no one cares.

We are in a New Dark Age.
 

lwf

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No he's not nor has that been given as the reason. The reason given was to deny him the right to talk to witnesses for preparing his defense, while the prosecutor any anyone else can talk to any witnesses to prepare for prosecution.

He wasn't put in solitary confinement to deny him the right to talk to witnesses. He was put in solitary because he was engaging in witness tampering. The prosecutor should be able to talk to any witnesses to prepare for prosecution in order to get the full story. Witnesses shed light on what happened and ensure that the prosecution is legitimate.

The real reason is to psychologically break him to force him to say whatever they want him to say. Even a convicted person still has the right to remain silent. Mueller's tactic if the destroy anyone who exercises that right. THAT is official oppression and Mueller should be prosecuted for obstruction of justice for doing so.

This is a moronic conspiracy theory. There is zero evidence that Bob Mueller has ever engaged in any kind of behavior like this in his entire career. He is a conservative republican, a combat-tested Marine, and a highly respected attorney who has faithfully executed his duties as a lawyer since the early 70's.

Prosecutors don't invent crimes to prosecute. They don't psychologically break witnesses in order to get them to lie. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.
 

lwf

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Gaming the system and running over citizens to get the result they want has long been standard procedure, and almost no one cares.

We are in a New Dark Age.

This has never been standard procedure, and is not how the criminal justice system works.
 

Beaudreaux

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Manifort is as close as one can get to being a traitor to the United States, Ukraine, and the west in general, without actually putting on a Russian uniform.
 

Deuce

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OP would you be surprised to learn that virtually everything you wrote is wrong?
 

Hawkeye10

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Manifort is as close as one can get to being a traitor to the United States, Ukraine, and the west in general, without actually putting on a Russian uniform.

There was nothing wrong with working for Russians when Manafort did it, that was before current hostilities between America and Russia, and before Russia teamed up with China in opposition to the West.
 

Phys251

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Bob Mueller has taken the already corrupt usage of "obstruction of justice" all the way to a true police state meaning with Manafort, regardless of how guilty Manafort is. Manafort from the start has been kept in solitary confinement even since before any conviction and starting with a secret indictment in which no defense was even allowed to be offered. Solitary confinement is torture (you don't think so, empty a walk-in closet and see how long you can stand to stay in it) and this was NEVER appropriate for essentially an old tax case and process case not involving any violence.

But it is far worse. The job of a prosecutor is NOT to prosecute whatever it takes - and crush anyone who dares exercise their constitutional right to remain silent. The job of a prosecutor is to see that justice is served. This means protecting citizens rights and the rights of the innocent more than it means putting people in prison.

Yet no one now grasps that "obstruction of justice" most of all SHOULD mean denial of protections and rights of the innocent. It SHOULD mean protecting people from corrupt officials that use techniques to bully people into giving up their right to remain silent.

With Mueller, the concept that SHOULD most of all mean protecting the innocent and protecting people's legal rights, rather than his view of imprison, terrify, and destroy people's lives to force them to give up their rights and force them to plead guilt or the unlimited power of a corrupt prosecutor will destroy their lives even if ultimately found not guilty.

Sounds like you have what it takes to take on Robert Mueller! Why don't you lend your assistance to tRump's legal team? I'm sure they will be more than happy to have your expertise on board.
 

Beaudreaux

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There was nothing wrong with working for Russians when Manafort did it, that was before current hostilities between America and Russia, and before Russia teamed up with China in opposition to the West.

If he was advising Russian government officials on how to safely run a wastewater treatment plant, then yeah, there's no problem. It's what he did, added to who he did it for, that makes me say what I did above.
 

tres borrachos

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He wasn't put in solitary confinement to deny him the right to talk to witnesses. He was put in solitary because he was engaging in witness tampering. The prosecutor should be able to talk to any witnesses to prepare for prosecution in order to get the full story. Witnesses shed light on what happened and ensure that the prosecution is legitimate.



This is a moronic conspiracy theory. There is zero evidence that Bob Mueller has ever engaged in any kind of behavior like this in his entire career. He is a conservative republican, a combat-tested Marine, and a highly respected attorney who has faithfully executed his duties as a lawyer since the early 70's.

Prosecutors don't invent crimes to prosecute. They don't psychologically break witnesses in order to get them to lie. Don't drink the Kool-Aid.

It appears that advice came too late.
 

Praxas

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Bob Mueller has taken the already corrupt usage of "obstruction of justice" all the way to a true police state meaning with Manafort, regardless of how guilty Manafort is. Manafort from the start has been kept in solitary confinement even since before any conviction and starting with a secret indictment in which no defense was even allowed to be offered. Solitary confinement is torture (you don't think so, empty a walk-in closet and see how long you can stand to stay in it) and this was NEVER appropriate for essentially an old tax case and process case not involving any violence.

But it is far worse. The job of a prosecutor is NOT to prosecute whatever it takes - and crush anyone who dares exercise their constitutional right to remain silent. The job of a prosecutor is to see that justice is served. This means protecting citizens rights and the rights of the innocent more than it means putting people in prison.

Yet no one now grasps that "obstruction of justice" most of all SHOULD mean denial of protections and rights of the innocent. It SHOULD mean protecting people from corrupt officials that use techniques to bully people into giving up their right to remain silent.

With Mueller, the concept that SHOULD most of all mean protecting the innocent and protecting people's legal rights, rather than his view of imprison, terrify, and destroy people's lives to force them to give up their rights and force them to plead guilt or the unlimited power of a corrupt prosecutor will destroy their lives even if ultimately found not guilty.

Comments like this are so hypocritical considering the Republican support of impeaching Clinton for lying about a blowjob (Obstruction of Justice). You guys reap what you sow. If lying about a blowjob is worthy of Obstruction of Justice, than Trump is in deeeeeeep ****.
 

ecofarm

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No he's not nor has that been given as the reason. The reason given was to deny him the right to talk to witnesses for preparing his defense, while the prosecutor any anyone else can talk to any witnesses to prepare for prosecution. The real reason is to psychologically break him to force him to say whatever they want him to say. Even a convicted person still has the right to remain silent. Mueller's tactic if the destroy anyone who exercises that right. THAT is official oppression and Mueller should be prosecuted for obstruction of justice for doing so.

Credit where credit is due. This is pretty good BS.
 

Xelor

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Bob Mueller has taken the already corrupt usage of "obstruction of justice" all the way to a true police state meaning with Manafort, regardless of how guilty Manafort is. Manafort from the start has been kept in solitary confinement even since before any conviction and starting with a secret indictment in which no defense was even allowed to be offered. ...

But it is far worse. The job of a prosecutor is NOT to prosecute whatever it takes - and crush anyone who dares exercise their constitutional right to remain silent. The job of a prosecutor is to see that justice is served. This means protecting citizens rights and the rights of the innocent more than it means putting people in prison.

Yet no one now grasps that "obstruction of justice" most of all SHOULD mean ...

OP-er, are you a recognized legal scholar?
  • If so, please identify the legal doctrines and case law that support the veracity of your premises and cogency of your conclusions.


Obstruction of justice is defined by federal statute as any "interference with the orderly administration of law and justice" and governed by 18 U.S.C. §§ 1501-1521. Federal code identifies more than 20 specific types of obstruction, including "Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees" (18 U.S.C. § 1505).
Other ways an individual may commit this offense include, but are not limited to, the following acts:

The crime can take multiple] forms: bribery, tampering with evidence, lying to investigators, abusing one's power, or other acts intended to impede a criminal investigation. The federal obstruction of justice statute is written broadly and focuses more on the effect (or intended effect) of a particular action rather than the specific act itself. Therefore, seemingly innocuous acts could be construed as criminal activity if they have the intended effect of impeding justice.
(Source)


Blue:
That is factually and contextually untrue:

  • October 2017:
    • Manafort indicted for conspiracy against the US.
    • Manafort placed under house arrest at his home in VA.
  • December 2017:
    • Manafort released from house arrest and allowed to travel to his FL home.
  • June 2018:
  • The nature of Manafort's so-called solitary confinement consists, per a July 11, 2018 court filing, of the following Manafort:
    • "Is not confined to a cell."
    • Between 8:30 am and 10 pm, "has access to a separate workroom at the jail to meet with his attorneys and legal team"
    • He has "his own bathroom and shower facility"
    • He has "his own personal telephone" (calls are limited to 15 minutes each, but he can recall the person immediately; he made nearly 300 calls in 3 weeks)
    • Has a personal laptop he can use in his unit
    • Has an extension cord enabling laptop use in either his unit or his workroom
    • His legal team brings in a laptop, he drafts the emails on it, and they send them after they leave.
    • He’s being treated like a "VIP," per his own words.


Pink:
What "secret indictment?" Please provide a link to it.

The Manafort indictments of which I'm aware are:
Where is this secret one, and if it's secret, how do you know about it?


Tan:
What are you talking about?
  • Manafort opted not to defend himself in the VA trial and he pled guilty to the DC charges.


Red:
A prosecutor's job is to use the lawful resources and methods at their disposal to obtain successful prosecutions (or confessions) of offenders.
 
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