Cops can be wrong, but not legally guilty (Blake)

[CLAX1911]

No, I don’t think it’s justified, not do I think it warrants charges. It was a misjudgment, but an understandable one in the moment. The greater misjudgment belonged to the perp, whom resisted and refused to follow commands then did something potentially dangerous for cops.

I don't know enough about the incident to make a judgement

 

[Simpletruther]

So we just call the possible permanent paralysis or death of a citizen at the hands of an officer a learning experience?!?!?!?!?

Yes, for both of them. But the perp has much more to learn. The mistake the cop made is difficult to overcome, it is a heat of the moment thing that can happen again. No amount of training is going to eliminate those kinds of mistakes, , but they can reduce them. The best way to avoid thst is to not do foolish potentially dangerous things he might overreact to.

I certainly learn from these things.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Being more cautious around someone who clearly is statically more likely to be dangerous isn’t denying your “individuality” it’s acknowledging objective reality.

And you know his. You would be more cautious around a black late at night in a dark alley with his pants hanging down than you would a well dressed Asian.

Yes it is....its lumping me in with all the others simply because I look like them. No matter how many times you try to claim its not. That is exactly what it is.

Take the video, for example. EVERY ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE presented a far more clear and present threat than Blake did. Why, you ask? Because they were all carrying ****ing firearms. How much more of a potential threat could they have been? They were doing EVERYTHING you suggested that I should stay away from in my interactions, and nothing happened to them.

For the record, I don't actually think its solely because they are white....I think its because they had the benefit of GOOD COPS showing up in each of those instances.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

Yes, for both of them. But the perp has much more to learn. The mistake the cop made is difficult to overcome, it is a heat of the moment thing that can happen again. No amount of training is going to eliminate those kinds of mistakes, , but they can reduce them. The best way to avoid thst is to not do foolish potentially dangerous things he might overreact to.

I certainly learn from these things.

NO, the best way to avoid them is to not have people who can't deal with the stress and danger of the job IN THAT JOB. This isn't that hard.

Not everyone is cut out the be a chemical engineer. Just because someone who keeps blowing up labs wants to be a chemical engineer doesn't mean we have to let them be. Same holds true with policing. Not everyone who WANTS to be a cop SHOULD be a cop.

 

[Simpletruther]

Yes it is....its lumping me in with all the others simply because I look like them. No matter how many times you try to claim its not. That is exactly what it is.

Take the video, for example. EVERY ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE presented a far more clear and present threat than Blake did. Why, you ask? Because they were all carrying ****ing firearms. How much more of a potential threat could they have been? They were doing EVERYTHING you suggested that I should stay away from in my interactions, and nothing happened to them.

For the record, I don't actually think its solely because they are white....I think its because they had the benefit of GOOD COPS showing up in each of those instances.

I do not believe you actually live like you claim. Nobody does. Because we all acknowledge statistics, some are simply more aware of them and using them better. Some abuse them etc.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

I do not believe you actually live like you claim. Nobody does. Because we all acknowledge statistics, some are simply more aware of them and using them better. Some abuse them etc.

And here you are making excuses for the very people who when they abuse them, can end a life when it need not be ended....and you are blaming the victim to boot.....awesome!

 

[Simpletruther]

And here you are making excuses for the very people who when they abuse them, can end a life when it need not be ended....and you are blaming the victim to boot.....awesome!

I made no excuses.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

I made no excuses.

Yeah you did....the fact that it has become so routine for you prevents you from seeing it.

For lack of a better way to put it....when you acknowledge that its a problem that can occur more than once due to the situation, but don't then advocate for the officer to be removed from duty and instead make it the fault of the victim (who you unwittingly called the perp), you are making an excuse for the officers horrendous judgement.

 

[Simpletruther]

Yeah you did....the fact that it has become so routine for you prevents you from seeing it.

For lack of a better way to put it....when you acknowledge that its a problem that can occur more than once due to the situation, but don't then advocate for the officer to be removed from duty and instead make it the fault of the victim (who you unwittingly called the perp), you are making an excuse for the officers horrendous judgement.

No, I am not. And no it wasn’t horrendous judgment. It simply was perfect judgement. And it’s unreasonable to expect perfect judgement in those situations.

 

[Middle_Ground]

This thread demonstrates why policing needs to change.
Submit to being detained for any and all no matter the circumstances because someone with a badge tells you to.
You are not allowed to ever question a police officers authority or judgement. They can grab you, hit you, shoot you, hold you down, strip search you, humiliate you or the ultimate kill you and they are always right. Nothing else matters a badge, uniform and gun that's more important to many than any right you might think you have.
Police officers are not soldiers in battle and should not act like it or be trained like they are.
We as a society have grown to complacent with this mentality.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

No, I am not. And no it wasn’t horrendous judgment. It simply was perfect judgement. And it’s unreasonable to expect perfect judgement in those situations.

You still haven't acknowledged the fact that some people aren't cut out for some work.

I don't want perfect. I want that if a mistake WAS made, we acknowledge it and deal with it (up to and including prosecution should it be necessary) and not simply claim its going to be dealt with in house and swept under the rug until the heat dies down. When mistakes such as these happen in the public eye, they need to be addressed the same way. To not do so gives the impression that blind eyes are being turned to irreparable screw ups.

 

[Simpletruther]

You still haven't acknowledged the fact that some people aren't cut out for some work.

nor have I denied it. It hasn’t come up.

I don't want perfect. I want that if a mistake WAS made, we acknowledge it and deal with it (up to and including prosecution should it be necessary) and not simply claim its going to be dealt with in house and swept under the rug until the heat dies down. When mistakes such as these happen in the public eye, they need to be addressed the same way. To not do so gives the impression that blind eyes are being turned to irreparable screw ups.

I agree in principle. But this mistake was small, he reacts a second too soon. But if he had waited 2 more seconds instead of one, it could mean he is dead. You don’t think these cops have seen video of other cops being killed in s very similar situation?

One second can mean life or death. A one second mistake is minor, we should acknowledge it yes, make sure training is ongoing sure.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

nor have I denied it. It hasn’t come up.

I agree in principle. But this mistake was small, he reacts a second too soon. But if he had waited 2 more seconds instead of one, it could mean he is dead. You don’t think these cops have seen video of other cops being killed in s very similar situation?

One second can mean life or death. A one second mistake is minor, we should acknowledge it yes, make sure training is ongoing sure.

When a one second mistake can ends someones life, its not minor. Your cavalier attitude about it is part of the problem. The cops see it the same way you do, and that has to stop.

Nobody makes people become cops. Its an all volunteer position, and everyone going in knows the risks before they take that oath and join the academy. Once they choose to do that, being self serving takes a back seat. If they don't want to carry the burden of that risk, then they shouldn't become cops. THAT is how we avoid more of these incidents....not by telling the citizenry that cops are the be all end all and if you do something they don't like, them killing you is your bad.

 

[Simpletruther]

When a one second mistake can ends someones life, its not minor. Your cavalier attitude about it is part of the problem. The cops see it the same way you do, and that has to stop.

I am not being cavalier at all. It was major in consequences, if that is what you mean. But it was minor in the sense of understandable and hard to avoid.
One second mistakes will never go away. We can try to reduce them, but even the most cool headed, well trained and well meaning cops out there would make this mistake if put in those situations enough. We can’t imprison cops for imperfection.

Nobody makes people become cops. Its an all volunteer position, and everyone going in knows the risks before they take that oath and join the academy. Once they choose to do that, being self serving takes a back seat. If they don't want to carry the burden of that risk, then they shouldn't become cops. THAT is how we avoid more of these incidents....not by telling the citizenry that cops are the be all end all and if you do something they don't like, them killing you is your bad.

Sure, and if we make the risks of being a cop so great that only a fool would become one, that is exactly what we will get, voluntary fools.

Do you see that bolder part above? Do you deny this?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I have to disagree......strongly, , one could come up countless things he might be doing. Maybe he was getting a smoke to calm down, or giving instructions to his kids.

Also, I don’t think him leaving would justify shooting him. Shoot his tires out if he tries to leave.

I’m sorry that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen written anywhere.

The very idea cops were supposed to assume that after resisting arrest, stealing car keys, and twice resisting a taser that he was really just digging for his Newport menthols for a smoke break is absurd enough,

The idea officers should let a violent domestic offender drive away in a car full of kids then start shooting at the vehicles tires instead of preventing him from getting that far is downright demented

 

[Simpletruther]

I’m sorry that’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen written anywhere.

The very idea cops were supposed to assume that after resisting arrest, stealing car keys, and twice resisting a taser that he was really just digging for his Newport menthols for a smoke break is absurd enough,

It’s pretty moronic to think a crazy perp will only do what your two “reasonable options” Are. you are being rude and abnoxious. I was perfectly willing and prefer a civil discussion. But if you like bluntness I will try to comply.

The idea officers should let a violent domestic offender drive away in a car full of kids then start shooting at the vehicles tires instead of preventing him from getting that far is downright demented

What is demented is claiming killing him is the better option than shooting his tires out, when he is not posing a direct threat to your life. There is no way cops are trained to gun down suspects if they try to drive off. That is nonsense of the highest order.

The only possible reasonable defense is the cop feared he was reaching for a gun, which I accept is reasonable.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It’s pretty moronic to think a crazy perp will only do what your two “reasonable options” Are. you are being rude and abnoxious. I was perfectly willing and prefer a civil discussion. But if you like bluntness I will try to comply.

There is no chance he was doing anything other then resisting or fleeing.

Even if there was then the fact those two things are possible justifies deadly force

What is demented is claiming killing him is the better option than shooting his tires out, when he is not posing a direct threat to your life. There is no way cops are trained to gun down suspects if they try to drive off. That is nonsense of the highest order.

The only possible reasonable defense is the cop feared he was reaching for a gun, which I accept is reasonable.

No, shooting at a moving vehicle with kids in it is not more reasonable then shooting the offender before he leaves

Yes police are trained it is legal to shoot fleeing suspects if its reasonable to conclude they pose a deadly risk to others.

Also it is acceptable to shoot people reaching for a weapon. Especially when the perp is violent, resistive, irrational, and not following commands

 

[Simpletruther]

There is no chance he was doing anything other then resisting or fleeing.

Even if there was then the fact those two things are possible justifies deadly force



No, shooting at a moving vehicle with kids in it is not more reasonable then shooting the offender before he leaves

Yes police are trained it is legal to shoot fleeing suspects if its reasonable to conclude they pose a deadly risk to others.

Also it is acceptable to shoot people reaching for a weapon. Especially when the perp is violent, resistive, irrational, and not following commands

No way. There was nothing in the context that concluded it was reasonable to assume he was an eminent deadly risk to the kids.

And firing 7 rounds in the general direction of those kids is far more risky for them than letting him get in, and shooting the tires out before he drives away.

 

[bullseyelqcs]

I am not being cavalier at all. It was major in consequences, if that is what you mean. But it was minor in the sense of understandable and hard to avoid.
One second mistakes will never go away. We can try to reduce them, but even the most cool headed, well trained and well meaning cops out there would make this mistake if put in those situations enough. We can’t imprison cops for imperfection.

Who said imprison them for imperfection? Certainly not me. But we SHOULD imprison them when they take a life they didn't need to take.

Sure, and if we make the risks of being a cop so great that only a fool would become one, that is exactly what we will get, voluntary fools.

Do you see that bolder part above? Do you deny this?

That is a risk we have to run. We can't have officers running around thinking that if they **** up and kill someone, they are in the clear.

I do dispute your assertion that well trained and well meaning officers would make that mistake if put in those situations enough. I provided you a video with proof that good cops in even super high tension situations can make the right calls.

We DON'T have to be okay with this ****.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

No way. There was nothing in the context that concluded it was reasonable to assume he was an eminent deadly risk to the kids.

And firing 7 rounds in the general direction of those kids is far more risky for them than letting him get in, and shooting the tires out before he drives away.

You mean other then the fact he had raped their mother, beat her, then came back and stole her keys, then resist arrest, then try to either grab a weapon or flee, and that tells you there’s no reason to believe he was risk to the children.

That’s some next level ignorance

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Who said imprison them for imperfection? Certainly not me. But we SHOULD imprison them when they take a life they didn't need to take.



That is a risk we have to run. We can't have officers running around thinking that if they **** up and kill someone, they are in the clear.

I do dispute your assertion that well trained and well meaning officers would make that mistake if put in those situations enough. I provided you a video with proof that good cops in even super high tension situations can make the right calls.

We DON'T have to be okay with this ****.

No we shouldn’t. Life is sacred but it’s no so sacred that a killer need always be imprisoned. If a policeman uses force in good faith they should never be criminally liable for it since the alternative is lawless anarchy which will kill far more people

 

[george48]

If white peiple begin to murder at an astoundingly higher rate than the Muslims, literally a mind blowing 5 times higher rate, I would understand the differing treatment.

He said he had a knife in his possession... Then he went for it (or went to his vehicle) and appeared to reach for it...if the officers assumed he had a knife...which they gathered from prior evidence... Then he reached... What the hell would you have done?

 

[Simpletruther]

You mean other then the fact he had raped their mother, beat her, then came back and stole her keys, then resist arrest, then try to either grab a weapon or flee, and that tells you there’s no reason to believe he was risk to the children.

That’s some next level ignorance

Yes’ these are not indications of eminent murder. Cops cannot just gun people down because they are “bad guys” that might possibly harm or kill others.

I am pretty ignorant of law but am at genius level compared to your drivel.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Yes’ these are not indications of eminent murder. Cops cannot just gun people down because they are “bad guys” that might possibly harm or kill others.

I am pretty ignorant of law but am at genius level compared to your drivel.

You don’t need proof future harm will happen. Only reasonable belief that it might, in order to use deadly force

This is a violent man, with violent criminal history, against this very family, who won’t conply with police orders and attempt to validly arrest him. He must not be permitted to enter a vehicle. And he wasn’t.

No, you are not a genius. You’re a political hack trying to use quasi-intellectual sounding sophistry to argue away that this man presented a deadly threat to officers and children and had the violent record to show it was likely

 

[Simpletruther]

He said he had a gun in his possession... Then he went for it (or went to his vehicle) and appeared to reach for it...if the officers assumed he had a knife...which they gathered from prior evidence... Then he reached... What the hell would you have done?

Likely I would do what the cop did. Do you have me confused with another poster?