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Constitution Cannot be Amended by Arrogant Public Officials

libertarian_knight said:
Becuase, though presidents have long enjoyed the use of National Security concerns, things came to a head after a long series of abuses of power with Nixon, so Congress decided to excercise their explicit consitutional authority to make rules and regulations of the armed Services, and to make laws for the government.

See this authority of the President's has been abused, certainly abused, for political and economic interests. What Congress did, using it's legal and consitutional authority, was narrow the scope to which there is legal use of communications intercepts, and it explicitly restricted communication intercepts in manners when US persons are involved, in order to prevent Political and Economic espionage. However, they did allow for a very reasonable degree of latitude and incorporate mechanisms to allow the attorney General to authorize wiretaps before a warrant could be procured, in the even of an emergency.

This is not a "new issue" for the American Public nor the Government. This is a continuation of decades worth of history that has shown abuse of power for political and economic interests, with no impact on national security.

President's have lied in the past about how they were using and needed this power. That's why this President can not be trusted with it, and has had it restricted since 1978.

Libertarian, what's so funny is that when Gonzales is out there saying how other presidents have used their Presidential power in the name of national security, he stopped short of talking about when Nixon did it, which was when the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that Nixon, as president, did not have the power to conduct warrantless domestic surveillance. LOL
 
aps said:
Libertarian, what's so funny is that when Gonzales is out there saying how other presidents have used their Presidential power in the name of national security, he stopped short of talking about when Nixon did it, which was when the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that Nixon, as president, did not have the power to conduct warrantless domestic surveillance. LOL

They did the same thing regarding the Buildup to the Iraq War. They use past behaviors, without qualifying a time period, when talking about current or recent events. When explaing the who, what, when, where, why and how of a thing, they conviently make "when" mean any time in the past, omitting other past events that have changed the who, what, where, why or how apsects to an event.

it's sheer dishonestly, plain and simple.
 
aps said:
Libertarian, what's so funny is that when Gonzales is out there saying how other presidents have used their Presidential power in the name of national security, he stopped short of talking about when Nixon did it, which was when the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that Nixon, as president, did not have the power to conduct warrantless domestic surveillance. LOL

This is not domestic spying which everyone including Gonzalez has made very clear these are calls which are originally targeted from outside the U.S. and are incoming to the U.S. FISA doesn't apply unless the original target for tapping was inside the U.S.
 
libertarian_knight said:
you are a broken record. "Necessary" and "appropriate" are BOTH subjective and BOTH (because of the word "and") MUST be taken each time. Now, since CONGRESS wrote the law CONGRESS, not the President, gets to decide what they meant by "appropriate." I would surmise congress would not believe violation of congressional acts are "apprioriate."

harp on how "necessary" is was, but the terms are not in isolation, and anything necessary must also always be appropriate, according to social custom, law, and congressional record.

Yada yada yada, the FISA act doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place the President was granted all necessary power to defeat AlQaeda end of story.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
This is not domestic spying which everyone including Gonzalez has made very clear these are calls which are originally targeted from outside the U.S. and are incoming to the U.S. FISA doesn't apply unless the original target for tapping was inside the U.S.

Trajan, read the Supreme Court case that involved the Nixon wiretapping. The Supreme Court has not gotten a case where the wiretapping involved foreign surveillance where one of the people being surveilled was in the US. But if you read that decision, it lends credence to the argument that it (the Supreme Court) would find the current NSA surveillance to be unconstitutional and beyond the powers of the president.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Yada yada yada, the FISA act doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place the President was granted all necessary power to defeat AlQaeda end of story.

necessary and appropriate. It's appropriate to use the means the COngress declared and desired to be the "Exclusive means."

FISA says "Notwithstanding any other law" several times. That means DESPITE ANYTHING IN AUMF, FISA applies.

Despite a FORMAL declaration of open war, FISA still applies.

Despite any law which does not ammend FISA to change where FISA applies, FISA still applies.

Like it or not, FISA is law, and AUMF does not trump it, because FISA said DESPITE what any other law says, in support of or contrary to, FISA is the exclusive means for conducting electronic or communications intercepts.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Yada yada yada, the FISA act doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place the President was granted all necessary power to defeat AlQaeda end of story.

LOL End of story? I don't think so. Honestly, Trajan, if what bush was doing was so legal, why would there be Congressional hearings on this? Once you graduate from law school, then come talk to me about the legal doctrine of repealing a statute by implication. The AUMF did not repeal FISA--no way--no how.
 
aps said:
LOL End of story? I don't think so. Honestly, Trajan, if what bush was doing was so legal, why would there be Congressional hearings on this? Once you graduate from law school, then come talk to me about the legal doctrine of repealing a statute by implication. The AUMF did not repeal FISA--no way--no how.

First off the FISA act was written for peace time purposes,

Secondly, the FISA act doesn't even apply when the original target of the tapping is located outside of the U.S.

Thirdly, the Judiciary (including the FISA court) has no war powers and can not dictate to the President or to Congress how best to carry out the war effort.
 
libertarian_knight said:
necessary and appropriate. It's appropriate to use the means the COngress declared and desired to be the "Exclusive means."

FISA says "Notwithstanding any other law" several times. That means DESPITE ANYTHING IN AUMF, FISA applies.

Despite a FORMAL declaration of open war, FISA still applies.

Despite any law which does not ammend FISA to change where FISA applies, FISA still applies.

Like it or not, FISA is law, and AUMF does not trump it, because FISA said DESPITE what any other law says, in support of or contrary to, FISA is the exclusive means for conducting electronic or communications intercepts.

What don't you understand about the Judiciary having absolutely no war powers?

FISA doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place,

and the President is well within his rights under Article 2 Section 2 of the Constitution and no god damn piece of legislation trumps that.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
First off the FISA act was written for peace time purposes,

There is a provision for wartime and it allows the president to conduct warrantless wiretapping during the first 15 days to allow him to amend FISA.

Secondly, the FISA act doesn't even apply when the original target of the tapping is located outside of the U.S.

Wrong.

Thirdly, the Judiciary (including the FISA court) has no war powers and can not dictate to the President or to Congress how best to carry out the war effort.

Wrong.

You're talking to Libertarian and I like you're some know-it-all, Trajan. Let's not forget that you're not even a college graduate. Why you think you have some fantastic understanding of the constitution is beyond me, particularly when I am guessing you have not studied constitutional law. So argue with me all you want. If you think you know more than I do, think again.
 
aps said:
There is a provision for wartime and it allows the president to conduct warrantless wiretapping during the first 15 days to allow him to amend FISA.

It doesn't matter because FISA doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place.

Show me then where in the FISA act does it say that it applies when the original target was outside the U.S. it only applies if they then proceed to listen on to the calls of the person inside the U.S. and the President has made it very clear that calls between two people within the U.S. are not being tapped.

Bullshit I'm wrong the Judiciary has absolutely no war powers absolutely non that includes the FISA court.
You're talking to Libertarian and I like you're some know-it-all, Trajan. Let's not forget that you're not even a college graduate. Why you think you have some fantastic understanding of the constitution is beyond me, particularly when I am guessing you have not studied constitutional law. So argue with me all you want. If you think you know more than I do, think again.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
First off the FISA act was written for peace time purposes,

Secondly, the FISA act doesn't even apply when the original target of the tapping is located outside of the U.S.

Thirdly, the Judiciary (including the FISA court) has no war powers and can not dictate to the President or to Congress how best to carry out the war effort.

First off, not true. Why did they put in the 15-day provision after a declaration of war? because it concerns all-time and war-time. Wrong.

Secondly, heard that claimed, but not substantiated effectively. maybe maybe not, I lean toward not though.

thirdly, wrong again. The Federal Judiciary does NOT need "war powers" in order to rule on a dispute between the Congress and Presidency. SCOTUS has in fact ruled, regarding Korean War Era siezure of Steel plants, for "national security concerns." What's more, is there are numerous United States v. United States court descions.

"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting...to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party..." (except those as refered to in the 11th Amendement, which is not of concern in this issue).

In this kind of issue, the United States is BOTH PARTIES to a case, in Law, and therefor it is DOUBLEY original Jurisdiction of the Federal Courts.
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
It doesn't matter because FISA doesn't even apply to these circumstances in the first place.

Show me then where in the FISA act does it say that it applies when the original target was outside the U.S. it only applies if they then proceed to listen on to the calls of the person inside the U.S. and the President has made it very clear that calls between two people within the U.S. are not being tapped.

If someone is being wiretapped and is in the United States, FISA APPLIES! It doesn't matter if the call is being made from overseas--if a person in the United States is being wiretapped, FISA APPLIES ALWAYS.

Bullshit I'm wrong the Judiciary has absolutely no war powers absolutely non that includes the FISA court.

See Libertarian's response to you above.

Great job, Libertarian!
 
libertarian_knight said:
First off, not true. Why did they put in the 15-day provision after a declaration of war? because it concerns all-time and war-time. Wrong.

Secondly, heard that claimed, but not substantiated effectively. maybe maybe not, I lean toward not though.

thirdly, wrong again. The Federal Judiciary does NOT need "war powers" in order to rule on a dispute between the Congress and Presidency. Congress has in fact ruled, regarding Korean War Era siezure of Steel plants, for "national security concerns."

"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting...to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party..." (except those as refered to in the 11th Amendement, which is not of concern in this issue).

In this kind of issue, the United States is BOTH PARTIES to a case, in Law, and therefor it is DOUBLEY original Jurisdiction of the Federal Courts.


LMFAO ok so now the courts determine how to fight the war effort I'd love to read the Constitution that you've got, I really like your comparison to siezing property and intelligence gathering, my point still stands the Judicial branch has no say in how best to carry out the war effort those rights are expressly reserved for the Congress and the President.
 
aps said:
You're talking to Libertarian and I like you're some know-it-all, Trajan. Let's not forget that you're not even a college graduate. Why you think you have some fantastic understanding of the constitution is beyond me, particularly when I am guessing you have not studied constitutional law. So argue with me all you want. If you think you know more than I do, think again.

Unnecessary ad hominem. You can surely post your credentials, however that does not ensure certainty in conclusion.

What's more, I have no formal study in Consitutional Law, I am just a nerd that reads the rulings from time to time. As you can surmise, my own independant analysis of the events seem to be quite in line with your, thoug I assume you have had Formal study in the field. The question of course then becomes, did you get ripped off? I mean, if an untrained monkey such as myself, can, through ratiocination, reach the same conclusions...
 
aps said:
If someone is being wiretapped and is in the United States, FISA APPLIES! It doesn't matter if the call is being made from overseas--if a person in the United States is being wiretapped, FISA APPLIES ALWAYS.
No it doesn't it only applies when the original target is in the U.S.
See Libertarian's response to you above.

Ya he compared two cases which have absolutely nothing to do with another.
Great job, Libertarian!
Constitution said:
Article III

Section 1. The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.


Section 2. The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.


In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.


The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.


Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.


The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

Hay how about that no war powers doesn't that beat all.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
LMFAO ok so now the courts determine how to fight the war effort I'd love to read the Constitution that you've got, I really like your comparison to siezing property and intelligence gathering, my point still stands the Judicial branch has no say in how best to carry out the war effort those rights are expressly reserved for the Congress and the President.

You still don't get it, do you? That Supreme Court case that Libertarian is talking about was discussing when the president acts in contravention of Congress. Congress has stated that FISA is the exclusive means to conduct surveillance. It also states that a warrant is needed. For Bush to go out on his own and determine that he doesn't need a warrant means that he is acting in contravention of what Congress has specifically spoken to and the president is at his weakest, as stated by the Supreme Court. Look it up before you talk out your butt, Trajan.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
LMFAO ok so now the courts determine how to fight the war effort I'd love to read the Constitution that you've got, I really like your comparison to siezing property and intelligence gathering, my point still stands the Judicial branch has no say in how best to carry out the war effort those rights are expressly reserved for the Congress and the President.
Dude, these things you're saying are proposterous. We're not talking about the war, we're talking about American citizens, many of whom cannot be proven to have done anything wrong, or even probably cause. In dealing with American citizens, the president is restricted to the abilities given to him in the constitution. You know as well as I do that the constitution wasn't a mistake, and restricting the president's abilities was 100% intentional. It's a little thing called checks and balances, are nation is kind of based on them, so if you're going into politics you might want to read up on them.
 
galenrox said:
Dude, these things you're saying are proposterous. We're not talking about the war, we're talking about American citizens, many of whom cannot be proven to have done anything wrong, or even probably cause. In dealing with American citizens, the president is restricted to the abilities given to him in the constitution. You know as well as I do that the constitution wasn't a mistake, and restricting the president's abilities was 100% intentional. It's a little thing called checks and balances, are nation is kind of based on them, so if you're going into politics you might want to read up on them.

Yes and if the original target of the taps was not an American citizen then FISA doesn't apply, not to mention the fact that no one has even proved that U.S. citizens have had their phones tapped in the first place and to the contrary the President, the NSA, and the Department of Justice have made it abundantly clear that the NSA is not tapping the communications between two people both residing in the U.S. but is only tapping the Communications of international calls.
 
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aps said:
You still don't get it, do you? That Supreme Court case that Libertarian is talking about was discussing when the president acts in contravention of Congress. Congress has stated that FISA is the exclusive means to conduct surveillance. It also states that a warrant is needed. For Bush to go out on his own and determine that he doesn't need a warrant means that he is acting in contravention of what Congress has specifically spoken to and the president is at his weakest, as stated by the Supreme Court. Look it up before you talk out your butt, Trajan.

And Congress also granted the President all necessary force to defeat AlQaeda, so now we have two contradictory pieces of Legislation and I think I'm going to go back to the only one which really matters that of the Constitution and Article 2 Section 2.


And you still have not shown me where the FISA act applies if the original target was outside the U.S..
 
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Trajan Octavian Titus said:
LMFAO ok so now the courts determine how to fight the war effort I'd love to read the Constitution that you've got, I really like your comparison to siezing property and intelligence gathering, my point still stands the Judicial branch has no say in how best to carry out the war effort those rights are expressly reserved for the Congress and the President.

No. The Courts have the original jurisdiction to resolve disputes in law to which the United States is at least one party to the case. In this instance, the Courts clearly have Jurisdiction, particularly the SCOTUS, becuase any dispute would be between Congress and the Presidency. In the past, to wit cases involving Concerns of National Security, Presidential Authority (in both war time and peace time), Communication and Electronic intercepts, and authority of Congress to Make rules for which it has the express Consitutioanl authority, have been reviewed, in different cases, generally favoring Congress. With maybe the exception of an attampt to limit presidential authoirty over pardons, congress generally has had the favor.

What's more, the Courts would not be deciding "how best to carry out the war effort" rather they would be deciding WHO has particular authority in types of events in defining or carrying out the scope or execution of war efforts. Again, Courts would decide WHO, not how.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And Congress also granted the President all necessary force to defeat AlQaeda, so now we have two contradictory pieces of Legislation and I think I'm going to go back to the only one which really matters that of the Constitution and Article 2 Section 2.

First, let me apologize for saying that you were talking out your butt. I'm sorry.

They really aren't contradictory pieces of legislation; however, if it was determined that they were contradictory, the evidence would need to be "overwhelming" in favor of a finding that the AUMF repealed FISA. I would be shocked if such a burden has been met.


And you still have not shown me where the FISA act applies if the original target was outside the U.S..

As long as a person in the United States is having a conversation with another person and is being wiretapped, FISA applies. I wont say this again because if you can't see that, then it's hopeless to have this discussion with you.
 
aps said:
As long as a person in the United States is having a conversation with another person and is being wiretapped, FISA applies. I wont say this again because if you can't see that, then it's hopeless to have this discussion with you.

And when has it been shown that the taps were on people residing in the U.S. I'm under the impression that the taps were placed on the people outside of the U.S. and that they called people in the U.S. and it is not the people inside the U.S. whose phones are being tapped.

Now I've got a head ache thank you people I so do love these conversations of ours.
 
OK I'm done arguing this sh!t I've just spent the last eight hours in class (one of which was Constitutional Law by the way aps) and you people are giving me a fuc/king head ache and to be honest I'm not a lawyer (yet) but my man here is so I'll let Gonzalez take it from here this is the best articulation of why the taps are legal that I've heard so far; andele andele ariba! get 'em speedy:


Attorney General Gonzalez speaking at Georgetown University Law Center I caught this one on C-SPAN where those little Sh!ts held up that banner and left without even hearing the man speak:
Thank you, Dean.

Just after dawn on September 11th, 2001, I flew out of Dulles Airport less than an hour before the departure from the same airport of American Airlines Flight 77, the plane that was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon later that morning. When I arrived in Norfolk, Virginia, to give a speech, the North Tower of the World Trade Center had been hit. By the end of my remarks, both the North and South Towers stood shrouded in smoke and flames with many desperate people jumping to their deaths, some 90 stories below. I spent much of the rest of that horrible day trying to get back to Washington to assist the President in my role as White House Counsel.

Everyone has a story from that morning. Up and down the East Coast, men and women were settling into their desks, coming home from a graveyard shift, or taking their children to school. And across the rest of the country, Americans were waking up to smoldering ruins and the images of ash covered faces. We remember where we were, what we were doing … and how we felt on that terrible morning, as 3,000 innocent men, women, and children died, without warning, without being able to look into the faces of their loved ones and say goodbye . . . all killed just for being Americans.

The open wounds so many of us carry from that day are the backdrop to the current debate about the National Security Agency’s terrorist surveillance program. This program, described by the President, is focused on international communications where experienced intelligence experts have reason to believe that at least one party to the communication is a member or agent of al Qaeda or a terrorist organization affiliated with al Qaeda. This program is reviewed and reauthorized by the President approximately every 45 days. The leadership of Congress, including the leaders of the Intelligence Committees of both Houses of Congress, have been briefed about this program more than a dozen times since 2001.

A word of caution here. This remains a highly classified program. It remains an important tool in protecting America. So my remarks today speak only to those activities confirmed publicly by the President, and not to other purported activities described in press reports. These press accounts are in almost every case, in one way or another, misinformed, confusing, or wrong. And unfortunately, they have caused concern over the potential breadth of what the President has actually authorized.

It seems that everyone who has heard of the President’s actions has an opinion – as well we should regarding matters of national security, separation of powers, and civil liberties. Of course, a few critics are interested only in political gains. Other doubters hope the President will do everything he can to protect our country, but they worry about the appropriate checks upon a Commander in Chief’s ability to monitor the enemy in a time of war.

Whatever your opinion, this much is clear: No one is above the law. We are all bound by the Constitution, and no matter the pain and anger we feel from the attacks, we must all abide by the Constitution. During my confirmation hearing, I said that, quote, “we are very, very mindful of Justice O’Connor’s statement in the 2004 Hamdi decision that a state of war is not a blank check for the President of the United States with respect to the rights of American citizens. I understand that and I agree with that.” Close quote. The President takes seriously his obligations to protect the American people and to protect the Constitution, and he is committed to upholding both of those obligations.

I’ve noticed that through all of the noise on this topic, very few have asked that the terrorist surveillance program be stopped. The American people are, however, asking two important questions: Is this program necessary? And is it lawful? The answer to each is yes.

***

The question of necessity rightly falls to our nation’s military leaders. You’ve heard the President declare: We are a nation at war.

And in this war, our military employs a wide variety of tools and weapons to defeat the enemy. General Mike Hayden, Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence and former Director of the NSA, laid out yesterday why a terrorist surveillance program that allows us to quickly collect important information about our enemy is so vital and necessary to the War on Terror.

The conflict against al Qaeda is, in fundamental respects, a war of information. We cannot build walls thick enough, fences high enough, or systems strong enough to keep our enemies out of our open and welcoming country. Instead, as the bipartisan 9/11 and WMD Commissions have urged, we must understand better who they are and what they’re doing – we have to collect more dots, if you will, before we can “connect the dots.” This program to surveil al Qaeda is a necessary weapon as we fight to detect and prevent another attack before it happens. I feel confident that is what the American people expect … and it’s what the terrorist surveillance program provides.

As General Hayden explained yesterday, many men and women who shoulder the daily burden of preventing another terrorist attack here at home are convinced of the necessity of this surveillance program.

***

Now, the legal authorities. As Attorney General, I am primarily concerned with the legal basis for these necessary military activities. I expect that as lawyers and law students, you are too.

The Attorney General of the United States is the chief legal advisor for the Executive Branch. Accordingly, from the outset, the Justice Department thoroughly examined this program against al Qaeda, and concluded that the President is acting within his power in authorizing it. These activities are lawful. The Justice Department is not alone in reaching that conclusion. Career lawyers at the NSA and the NSA’s Inspector General have been intimately involved in reviewing the program and ensuring its legality.

The terrorist surveillance program is firmly grounded in the President’s constitutional authorities. No other public official – no mayor, no governor, no member of Congress -- is charged by the Constitution with the primary responsibility for protecting the safety of all Americans – and the Constitution gives the President all authority necessary to fulfill this solemn duty.

It has long been recognized that the President’s constitutional powers include the authority to conduct warrantless surveillance aimed at detecting and preventing armed attacks on the United States. Presidents have uniformly relied on their inherent power to gather foreign intelligence for reasons both diplomatic and military, and the federal courts have consistently upheld this longstanding practice.

If this is the case in ordinary times, it is even more so in the present circumstances of our armed conflict with al Qaeda and its allies. The terrorist surveillance program was authorized in response to the deadliest foreign attack on American soil, and it is designed solely to prevent the next attack. After all, the goal of our enemy is to blend in with our civilian population in order to plan and carry out future attacks within America. We cannot forget that the 9/11 hijackers were in our country, living in our communities.

The President’s authority to take military action—including the use of communications intelligence targeted at the enemy—does not come merely from his inherent constitutional powers. It comes directly from Congress as well.

Just a few days after the events of September 11th, Congress enacted a joint resolution to support and authorize a military response to the attacks on American soil. In this resolution, the Authorization for Use of Military Force, Congress did two important things. First, it expressly recognized the President’s “authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States.” Second, it supplemented that authority by authorizing the President to, quote, “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks” in order to prevent further attacks on the United States.

The Resolution means that the President’s authority to use military force against those terrorist groups is at its maximum because he is acting with the express authorization of Congress. Thus, were we to employ the three-part framework of Justice Jackson’s concurring opinion in the Youngstown Steel Seizure case, the President’s authority falls within Category One, and is at its highest. He is acting “pursuant to an express or implied authorization of Congress,” and the President’s authority “includes all that he possesses in his own right [under the Constitution] plus all that Congress can” confer on him.

In 2004, the Supreme Court considered the scope of the Force Resolution in the Hamdi case. There, the question was whether the President had the authority to detain an American citizen as an enemy combatant for the duration of the hostilities.

<<<CONTINUED BELOW>>>
 
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<<<CONTINUED FROM ABOVE>>>

In that case, the Supreme Court confirmed that the expansive language of the Resolution —“all necessary and appropriate force”—ensures that the congressional authorization extends to traditional incidents of waging war. And, just like the detention of enemy combatants approved in Hamdi, the use of communications intelligence to prevent enemy attacks is a fundamental and well-accepted incident of military force.

This fact is borne out by history. This Nation has a long tradition of wartime enemy surveillance—a tradition that can be traced to George Washington, who made frequent and effective use of secret intelligence, including the interception of mail between the British and Americans.

And for as long as electronic communications have existed, the United States has conducted surveillance of those communications during wartime—all without judicial warrant. In the Civil War, for example, telegraph wiretapping was common, and provided important intelligence for both sides. In World War I, President Wilson ordered the interception of all cable communications between the United States and Europe; he inferred the authority to do so from the Constitution and from a general congressional authorization to use military force that did not mention anything about such surveillance. So too in World War II; the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, President Roosevelt authorized the interception of all communications traffic into and out of the United States. The terrorist surveillance program, of course, is far more focused, since it involves only the interception of international communications that are linked to al Qaeda or its allies.

Some have suggested that the Force Resolution did not authorize intelligence collection inside the United States. That contention cannot be squared with the reality of the 9/11 attacks, which gave rise to the Resolution, and with the language of the authorization itself, which calls on the President to protect Americans both “at home and abroad” and to take action to prevent further terrorist attacks “against the United States.” It’s also contrary to the history of wartime surveillance, which has often involved the interception of enemy communications into and out of the United States.


Against this backdrop, the NSA’s focused terrorist surveillance program falls squarely within the broad authorization of the Resolution even though, as some have argued, the Resolution does not expressly mention surveillance. The Resolution also doesn’t mention detention of enemy combatants. But we know from the Supreme Court’s decision in Hamdi that such detention is authorized. Justice O’Connor reasoned: “Because detention to prevent a combatant's return to the battlefield is a fundamental incident of waging war…Congress has clearly and unmistakably authorized detention in the narrow circumstances considered here.”

As Justice O’Connor recognized, it does not matter that the Force Resolution nowhere specifically refers to the detention of U.S. citizens as enemy combatants. Nor does it matter that individual Members of Congress may not have specifically intended to authorize such detention. The same is true of electronic surveillance. It is a traditional incident of war and, thus, as Justice O’Connor said, it is “of no moment” that the Resolution does not explicitly mention this activity.

These omissions are not at all surprising. In enacting the Force Resolution, Congress made no attempt to catalog every aspect of the use of force it was authorizing.

Instead, following the model of past military force authorizations, Congress—in general, but broad, terms—confirmed the President’s authority to use all traditional and legitimate incidents of military force to identify and defeat the enemy. In doing so, Congress must be understood to have intended that the use of electronic surveillance against the enemy is a fundamental component of military operations.

Some contend that even if the President has constitutional authority to engage in the surveillance of our enemy in a time of war, that authority has been constrained by Congress with the passage in 1978 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Generally, FISA requires the government to obtain an order from a special FISA court before conducting electronic surveillance. It is clear from the legislative history of FISA that there were concerns among Members of Congress about the constitutionality of FISA itself.

For purposes of this discussion, because I cannot discuss operational details, I'm going to assume here that intercepts of al Qaeda communications under the terrorist surveillance program fall within the definition of “electronic surveillance” in FISA.

The FISA Court of Review, the special court of appeals charged with hearing appeals of decisions by the FISA court, stated in 2002 that, quote, “[w]e take for granted that the President does have that [inherent] authority” and, “assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power.” We do not have to decide whether, when we are at war and there is a vital need for the terrorist surveillance program, FISA unconstitutionally encroaches – or places an unconstitutional constraint upon – the President's Article II powers. We can avoid that tough question because Congress gave the President the Force Resolution, and that statute removes any possible tension between what Congress said in 1978 in FISA and the President's constitutional authority today.

Let me explain by focusing on certain aspects of FISA that have attracted a lot of attention and generated a lot of confusion in the last few weeks.

First, FISA, of course, allows Congress to respond to new threats through separate legislation. FISA bars persons from intentionally “engag[ing] . . . in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute.” For the reasons I have already discussed, the Force Resolution provides the relevant statutory authorization for the terrorist surveillance program. Hamdi makes it clear that the broad language in the Resolution can satisfy a requirement for specific statutory authorization set forth in another law.

Hamdi involved a statutory prohibition on all detention of U.S. citizens except as authorized “pursuant to an Act of Congress.” Even though the detention of a U.S. citizen involves a deprivation of liberty, and even though the Force Resolution says nothing on its face about detention of U.S. citizens, a majority of the members of the Court nevertheless concluded that the Resolution satisfied the statutory requirement. The same is true, I submit, for the prohibition on warrantless electronic surveillance in FISA.

You may have heard about the provision of FISA that allows the President to conduct warrantless surveillance for 15 days following a declaration of war. That provision shows that Congress knew that warrantless surveillance would be essential in wartime. But no one could reasonably suggest that all such critical military surveillance in a time of war would end after only 15 days.

Instead, the legislative history of this provision makes it clear that Congress elected NOT TO DECIDE how surveillance might need to be conducted in the event of a particular armed conflict. Congress expected that it would revisit the issue in light of events and likely would enact a special authorization during that 15-day period. That is exactly what happened three days after the attacks of 9/11, when Congress passed the Force Resolution, permitting the President to exercise “all necessary and appropriate” incidents of military force.

Thus, it is simply not the case that Congress in 1978 anticipated all the ways that the President might need to act in times of armed conflict to protect the United States. FISA, by its own terms, was not intended to be the last word on these critical issues.

Second, some people have argued that, by their terms, Title III and FISA are the "exclusive means" for conducting electronic surveillance. It is true that the law says that Title III and FISA are "the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance . . . may be conducted." But, as I have said before, FISA itself says elsewhere that the government cannot engage in electronic surveillance "except as authorized by statute." It is noteworthy that, FISA did not say "the government cannot engage in electronic surveillance 'except as authorized by FISA and Title III.'" No, it said, except as authorized by statute -- any statute. And, in this case, that other statute is the Force Resolution.



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