Conservatives, you really worried about marriage? (1 Viewer)

[Blue Hobgoblin]

Talk to Britney Spears. Or Brad and Jennifer, who had a record 4 year long marriage! We are living in an age where people get married for fifteen minutes in Vegas cause they were drunk or just wanted to have some fun, and then get a divorce once the fun's over. Marriage has become so trivialized. People are getting divorces for the stupidest reasons. Cheating and the like are at an all-time high, and all this behavior is glorified by large parts of the media.

And guess what? These are straight people responsible for this mess! I'm not saying all heterosexuals are like this by any means, but it is heterosexuals who are eroding the "sanctity of marriage" as social conservatives like to call it. I don't see gays divorcing left and right and contributing to this nonsense. Yet the Religious Right and all the "family values" groups place a good bit of the blame on them.

It's really quite sad to see gay or lesbian couples that have remained faithful to one another for decades, yet can't get married because marriage will fall apart and crazy shit will happen. Well marriage is crumbling and the crazy shit hit the fan long ago. If you are truly concerned with the safety and future of marriage, blame all the celebrities and other people that treat marriage like a game, and don't know the first thing about being faithful. Leave faithful gay couples out of this and let them live together happily married.

Maybe gay people can teach us once again the true meaning of marriage and what true faithfulness and devotion are.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Right on, BH!

 

[Schweddy]

I like what you are saying about marriage falling apart. You are right, it is truely sick. I blame the public school system, media, and the parents.

I don't see gays divorcing left and right and contributing to this nonsense.

That is because they are NOT married in the US.

Also, unsure if your perspective is accurate about homosexual marrages and promiscuity.

Source: http://www.saltshakers.org.au/html/P/9/B/288/

In The Netherlands, where same sex couples are allowed to ‘marry’, a recent study published in AIDS magazine, found that the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition the study found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.
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[Blue Hobgoblin]

How many heterosexuals are getting divorces within a year of marriage and are involved in adulterous relationships?

I don't think it's right to punish the faithful gay couples, just because of the unfaithful ones. This example may be a bit crude, but faithful Tom and Joe should not be punished for Bob and Steve's promiscuity.

And gay couples who are faithful can be just as loving as any heterosexual couple. In my church, there is a gay couple with an adopted son. It is clear that they love him and each other very much.

For me, the gay marriage question is about more than societal repercussions and morals, it's about human dignity and equality.

 

[Pacridge]

Seems like a lot of this boils down to saying "those homosexuals aren't faithful to each and they sleep around." As if they have some corner on that market. It's the same logic and argument used about the gay rights parades. Just because a percentage of the marchers dress up like idiots doesn't mean thats the norm. Though they do tend to make better news footage. It's as if the hetero-supremacists are saying "you know heterosexuals would never do that." Never seen footage of "Mardi Gras in New Orleans" or "Fantasy Feast in Key West?" Or basically any bachelor party or strip club anywhere in this country?

 

[fireice]

marriage? it is useless without love...

 

[Schweddy]

Saying that gays are more faithful is a misrepresentation.

The point I was trying to make was that gay marriage is even more likely to add to the growing promiscuity and short term marriage issues. Not restore the family values that was mentioned in Blue's post.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Saying that gays are more faithful is a misrepresentation.

I don't think anyone said that.

The point I was trying to make was that gay marriage is even more likely to add to the growing promiscuity and short term marriage issues. Not restore the family values that was mentioned in Blue's post.

How did you reach that conclusion?

 

[Schweddy]

Hetero marriage facts:
http://www.equalityinmarriage.org/press1h.html

The median length for a first time marriage ending in divorce is eight years (Census Bureau 2002) and, overall, 43 percent of marriages break-up within 15 years. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey 2002)

Homo marriage facts:
http://www.saltshakers.org.au/html/P/9/B/288/

In The Netherlands, where same sex couples are allowed to ‘marry’, a recent study published in AIDS magazine, found that the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition the study found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.
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How did you reach that conclusion?

Simple math.
The median or average between heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage is significantly more.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Statistics can be misleading.

Many gay people are (sadly) still very closeted, and many more just choice to maintain a high level of privacy. It's difficult to research the life styles of gay people because we are impossible to find unless we put ourselves forward. It's not like being black (unless you're Mr Jackson, of course).
Having said all that, my experience in life suggests that a lot of gay people are, in fact, more promiscuous than a lot of straight people. But have you thought about why that is?
You cannot deny people the same acceptance that you enjoy, and then moan that they don't live according to your standards!

 

[Schweddy]

I have been to a gay bar 2x in my life. Both times at the door - they passed out condoms on the way out. Never seen this in regular bars. I often wonder why that is as well.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

I have been to a gay bar 2x in my life. Both times at the door - they passed out condoms on the way out. Never seen this in regular bars. I often wonder why that is as well.

It's because the gay community has been proactive in the fight against HIV. Here in the UK the spread of HIV amongst the hetero community is growing rapidly. Which suggests a lot of promiscuity, surely?

Perhaps you would do better to wonder why they don't offer condoms in "regular" bars.

 

[Schweddy]

It's because the gay community has been proactive in the fight against HIV. Here in the UK the spread of HIV amongst the hetero community is growing rapidly. Which suggests a lot of promiscuity, surely?

Perhaps you would do better to wonder why they don't offer condoms in "regular" bars.

Point taken. That is hard to rebute.

 

[mixedmedia]

Hetero marriage facts:
http://www.equalityinmarriage.org/press1h.html

The median length for a first time marriage ending in divorce is eight years (Census Bureau 2002) and, overall, 43 percent of marriages break-up within 15 years. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention survey 2002)

Homo marriage facts:
http://www.saltshakers.org.au/html/P/9/B/288/

In The Netherlands, where same sex couples are allowed to ‘marry’, a recent study published in AIDS magazine, found that the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition the study found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.
---------

How did you reach that conclusion?

Simple math.
The median or average between heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage is significantly more.

Got any "facts" from a non-Christian organization about homosexuality in the Netherlands?

 

[Schweddy]

Is AIDS magazine a Christian organization?

 

[shuamort]

Sorry Vauge, but this is so apples and oranges:

In The Netherlands, where same sex couples are allowed to ‘marry’, a recent study published in AIDS magazine, found that the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition the study found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.

I would love to see a study of straight, unmarried people to see how long their relationships last. I mean, is it a relationship if it lasts a month? How was this survey completed? Whom did they ask and in what context? How many people were asked? Where are the correlations between that and lesbian coupling? How do Netherlands numbers compare to US numbers on a whole? Was this survey taken before 2000 or after 2000 when gay marriage became legal in the Netherlands? Did they ask couples who were in the closet or only "out" ones.

Let's take a look at a some other information:

Not so fast, said Darren Spedale, a law and business student at Stanford University, who studied divorce rates in Denmark in 1996-97, seven years after same-sex registered partnerships were legalized. He found that 17 percent of gay partnerships ended in divorce compared with 46 percent of the straight relationships.

"Same-sex couples who enter into marriage-type relationships have obviously given it much more thought. ... A lot of them, in general, have had longer relationships previous to tying the knot," which decreases the likelihood of divorce, said Spedale, who is completing a book on the subject.

In any case, gay advocates say that non-monogamy is hardly restricted to gay couples. Some add that the consensual, non-monogamous agreements some gay couples have are honorable and preferable to the typical straight version of affairs and cheating.

As for conservative complaints about longevity among gay couples, "It makes me laugh because half of all heterosexual couples in America divorce," she said. "One should look at so-called normal, straight couples and see that there is no longevity there at all."

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that."-Homer Simpson


Here's my solution for social conservatives and it's REALLY simple. You want to save marriage and protect it? You really want to do that in the United States and think that it's really important to society? OK, then ban divorces. There should be no problem with seperation rates and divorce rates and broken homes if people aren't allowed divorces, right? I'll grant a little amnesty to abusive marriages, but those have to be proven in court.

Why won't that happen? Well, for instance, six senior republican lawmakers have ALREADY HAD DIVORCES.: Assistant Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), Sen. John Warner (Va.), Sen. Kit Bond (Mo.), Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell (Colo.), Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison (Texas) and Sen. John McCain (Ariz.). So much for the sanctity of marriage.

 

[shuamort]

I found another interesting article that I thought I'd share:

Currently there are nine European countries that give marital rights to gay couples. In Scandinavia, Denmark (1989), Norway (1993), Sweden (1994), and Iceland (1996) pioneered a separate-and-not-quite-equal status for same-sex couples called "registered partnership." (When they register, same-sex couples receive most of the financial and legal rights of marriage, other than the right to marry in a state church and the right to adopt children.) Since 2001, the Netherlands and Belgium have opened marriage to same-sex couples.

politics Who's winning, who's losing, and why.


Prenuptial Jitters
Did gay marriage destroy heterosexual marriage in Scandinavia?
By M.V. Lee Badgett
Posted Thursday, May 20, 2004, at 1:28 PM PT


This week, Massachusetts began handing out marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Amid the cheers, there are the doomsayers who predict that same-sex weddings will mean the end of civilization as we know it. Conservative religious leader James Dobson warns that Massachusetts is issuing "death certificates for the institution of marriage." And conservative pundit Stanley Kurtz claims to have found the "proof" that the institution will see its demise: Gay marriage helped to kill heterosexual marriage in Scandinavia. Indeed, Kurtz has become a key figure in the marriage debate: He and his statistics have been taken up by conservatives to support their argument that gay unions threaten heterosexual marriage. He has shown up in Congressional hearings, lawsuit filings, newspapers, debates, and anti-gay marriage videos across the country.

But Kurtz's smoking gun is really just smoke and mirrors. Reports of the death of marriage in Scandinavia are greatly exaggerated; giving gay couples the right to wed did not lead to massive matrimonial flight by heterosexuals.

Currently there are nine European countries that give marital rights to gay couples. In Scandinavia, Denmark (1989), Norway (1993), Sweden (1994), and Iceland (1996) pioneered a separate-and-not-quite-equal status for same-sex couples called "registered partnership." (When they register, same-sex couples receive most of the financial and legal rights of marriage, other than the right to marry in a state church and the right to adopt children.) Since 2001, the Netherlands and Belgium have opened marriage to same-sex couples.

Despite what Kurtz might say, the apocalypse has not yet arrived. In fact, the numbers show that heterosexual marriage looks pretty healthy in Scandinavia, where same-sex couples have had rights the longest. In Denmark, for example, the marriage rate had been declining for a half-century but turned around in the early 1980s. After the 1989 passage of the registered-partner law, the marriage rate continued to climb; Danish heterosexual marriage rates are now the highest they've been since the early 1970's. And the most recent marriage rates in Sweden, Norway, and Iceland are all higher than the rates for the years before the partner laws were passed. Furthermore, in the 1990s, divorce rates in Scandinavia remained basically unchanged.
(snip)
In my own recent study conducted in the Netherlands, I found that the nine countries with partnership laws had higher rates of unmarried cohabitation than other European and North American countries before passage of the partner-registration laws. In other words, high cohabitation rates came first, gay partnership laws followed.

 

[Naughty Nurse]

Trying to convince the conservatives with logic and facts? My, that's very brave of you!

 

[shuamort]

Homo marriage facts:
http://www.saltshakers.org.au/html/P/9/B/288/

In The Netherlands, where same sex couples are allowed to ‘marry’, a recent study published in AIDS magazine, found that the average length of a relationship between two men is 1.5 years. In addition the study found that they have eight other ‘partners’ each year.

I got a link on another message board about the complete study. Here's a link to the study. (WARNING: This is tedious).
Problems with the study to use to extrapolate statements as issued above in the Salt Shakers article:

The age of the people involved in the study. This is a major factor since the age was no greater than 30 years old.

The timeline that the studies were done pre-date the September 2000 legalization of gay marriage in the Netherlands.

The study also recognizes: "We distinguish between long-lasting partnerships and incidental contacts, therefore neglecting the spectrum of possible behaviours in between." Which is a whole lot of in between.

Also, the major factor that this study was conducted in the Netherlands, the most socially permissive and liberal country in the world. (Due to their history of religious puritanism that has kept a live and live let attitude in the country since the mid 1800s.)

I'm still looking for a concurrent study for the Netherlands on heterosexuals.

 

[Dezaad]

Simple math.
The median or average between heterosexual marriage and homosexual marriage is significantly more.

But, you seem to have concluded that this is so, without having looked at length of heterosexual marriage in the Netherlands. At least, you didn't provide us with that data and source.

Also, The 'median' and 'average' are not the same statistic.