Conservative US top court justices skeptical over union fees

haymarket said:

The union movement and the wages, benefits and working conditions that came from its victories were hard won with blood, sweat and tears and not a few deaths over a long and glorious history fighting against greed and a fundamental imbalance of power with the company against the individual worker. Sadly, too many workers do not know that history or chose to ignore it and unions are sinking in power and influence. As a result we see stagnant wages and the working class not benefiting in the economic recovery the way the upper class has benefitted.

Unions will have to keep losing and keep sinking and then they will get hungry again and workers will get angry and be ready to again engage in the struggle.

These things are cyclical and the cycle will continue. And I have little doubt that labor unions will do the same. Santayana famously stated that he who forgets the lessons of history is doomed to repeat its mistakes and that applies here as some union members grew fat and lazy and felt they outgrew the need for a union... and to a sense ... so did much of the rest of the nation not even in a union. We already see the economic results of this with wages fairly flat and little to no sharing of the big boom that top execs and stockholders have enjoyed over the last decade.

I once had a professor in college who said that dogs were smarter than most people. His evidence was that in the middle ages - barons and the wealthy held lavish banquets for dozens of their peers which went on for hours and even days featuring all manner of food and drink that most peasants never saw and were just scraping by. The partygoers often brought their dogs to the event and they hung out underneath the table where they would alertly watch for bones and scraps that either fell or were thrown to them. Now some dogs are faster and cleverer and learn quicker than others so they learned who to sit by and they ate very very well while other dogs did not eat too well at all.

And even though some of those dogs made out better than others, at the end of the feast, not one of them deluded himself by believing that he too was a rich baron and then climbed upon the table to associate with his fellows barons. A dog still knew he was a dog no matter how quick or skilled or well fed he was.

Sadly, the success of unions has given many members a lifestyle and an income that causes many to associate with the upper middle class and they no longer identify politically with the working class. This success goes beyond unions to those who unions have also helped raise up - like Big Three auto office workers.

So some no longer see the union as necessary.

But that is a mistake and things will swing back. The same need and the same purpose is always there.

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Shadowless said:

Forget unions, they are no longer able to keep up with what is needed. It's time to seriously look at the worker owned enterprise.

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haymarket said:

The union movement and the wages, benefits and working conditions that came from its victories were hard won with blood, sweat and tears and not a few deaths over a long and glorious history fighting against greed and a fundamental imbalance of power with the company against the individual worker.

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haymarket said:

I once had a professor in college who said that dogs were smarter than most people. His evidence was that in the middle ages - barons and the wealthy held lavish banquets for dozens of their peers which went on for hours and even days featuring all manner of food and drink that most peasants never saw and were just scraping by. The partygoers often brought their dogs to the event and they hung out underneath the table where they would alertly watch for bones and scraps that either fell or were thrown to them. Now some dogs are faster and cleverer and learn quicker than others so they learned who to sit by and they ate very very well while other dogs did not eat too well at all.

And even though some of those dogs made out better than others, at the end of the feast, not one of them deluded himself by believing that he too was a rich baron and then climbed upon the table to associate with his fellows barons. A dog still knew he was a dog no matter how quick or skilled or well fed he was.

Sadly, the success of unions has given many members a lifestyle and an income that causes many to associate with the upper middle class and they no longer identify politically with the working class. This success goes beyond unions to those who unions have also helped raise up - like Big Three auto office workers.

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Gaius46 said:

This case deals with a public sector union and public sector unions make no sense.

Neither does compelled membership. Unions don't have to represent all employees. Yes I know there may be laws that say they do but those laws should be rescinded. People should have the right to negotiate their own compensation package or choose collective bargaining if the see value in it. The union should earn it's membership does by proving it can do better for the worker than the worker can on his own.

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soot said:

Your professor was an idiot.

Neither dogs nor peasants had the option of ever rising above being dogs or peasants.

That's the way that biology and a rigid caste system, respectively, work.

Today's "working class" (in which I include anyone who draws a paycheck not signed by him or herself) has any number of options in terms of improving themselves, acquiring skills and/or knowledge, and rising within the ranks of the working class to include rising out of it through entrepreneurship.

Good example of a liberal college professor using falsely derived analogies to warp the minds of impressionable undergrads into accepting the some need for the American Association of University Professors.

he was smart enough to know where his bread was buttered, at least.

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Jack Fabulous said:

Those were private sector unions. This case is about public sector unions.

Wait... are you claiming that the government has a long history of exploiting government employees?

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haymarket said:

Your post is the saddest thing I have come across today. it is a denial of reality and a denial of history.

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haymarket said:

A worker is a worker is a worker. I think Billy Shakespeare said that .... or something along those lines.

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soot said:

I've never been a member of a union.

Neither has my wife.

She's the daughter of Ecuadorian immigrants, I'm the son of an alcoholic father who had a GED.

We both rake in six figures.

Neither of us allowed ourselves to fall victim of the serf/dog mentality your professor would have had us believe was our fate if it weren't for unions.

Like I said, he's a ****ing idiot.

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Jack Fabulous said:

Since we're harvesting quotes from historic figures, you should check out what FDR had to say about public sector employee unions.

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haymarket said:

When 1937 comes around again, you be sure to let me know.

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haymarket said:

So rescind the laws that forces unions to represent free riders ..... then have companies negotiate directly with non union employees .... and NOT give them the union contract terms.

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Jack Fabulous said:

Interesting.

Prevailing wisdom in 1937 believed that public sector employee unions would be an abomination but in 2016 we somehow can't live without them.

My, my... how times have changed.

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Gaius46 said:

I'm completely fine with that with the proviso that the company and employee can agree to whatever terms they like. I'm relatively sure that if the union has any worth they'll get a better deal for their members than individuals can get on their own.

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Gaius46 said:

This case deals with a public sector union and public sector unions make no sense.

Neither does compelled membership. Unions don't have to represent all employees. Yes I know there may be laws that say they do but those laws should be rescinded. People should have the right to negotiate their own compensation package or choose collective bargaining if the see value in it. The union should earn it's membership does by proving it can do better for the worker than the worker can on his own.

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haymarket said:

Of course you do.. you are a union hating libertarian.

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Gaius46 said:

I don't hate unions. I was a union worker at one time. My dad was a union local VP. More to the point I don't how a union, in theory, is even remotely anti-libertarian. People negotiating their employment contracts is the essence of liberty.

What I dislike is being told I must join a union. Further having a captive membership removes from the union any incentive to bust their ass for their membership's benefit. They become just another power structure whose main objective is staying in power. I'll join a union if I perceive they give something of value for my dues. If they don't why the hell should I throw my money away?

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Captain Adverse said:

Except the individual really has no bargaining power unless the employer demand for his skill set is greater than the supply of other applicants.

When was the last time this has existed for the bulk of workers? Typically in a major World War, and even then only because so many men were in military service. Sometimes if your nation is the sole economic winner (like the U.S.A. in the 20 years immediately after WWII).

How much time (and debt) do you have to invest in an education (vocational or professional) to make yourself truly competitive in the job market? Someone an employer NEEDS rather than someone they have some minor use for? Not lately.

Unions have a lot of problems, typically because of the cronyism in the leadership ranks. But without them, most workers end up dealing with situations like Wal-Mart.

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haymarket said:

As a group. I have never seen a group of people who hate unions more than self professed libertarians. It is almost knee jerk reaction with them that they simply cannot control.

Of course, that makes perfect sense as libertarianism is all about the I while unions are about the WE.

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