• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Conservative government of Indonesia has decided to put more religion into their laws

poweRob

poweRob

USMC 1988-1996
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
83,488
Reaction score
57,927
Location
New Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Ultimately, all religions tend to do the same things when they get a hold of government.

 
The west has had a lot of experience with mixing religion and politics- almost all bad: from the wars of reformation, to the 30 years's war. Its decision to get religion out of politics was the fruit of all this experience, and was not an easy one. I wish many of these countries would study some of this history and experience, and avoid having to reinvent the wheel for themselves.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution...In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison

"It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. "
-James Madison

All National institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine

"Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America….As an engine of power it serves the purpose of despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or hereafter.”
_Thomas Paine

"They [the Christian clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
 
Last edited:
And for some of these Islamic countries which might say that the experience of the west was different because they are Christians and don't have the right religion, but it is different in their country because they do, maybe the more recent experience of Iran with their Islamic theocracy might prove instructive. This is from an Indian newspaper:

indianexpress.com

Iranians dream no more of religion — they dream of freedom and are ready to pay the price to make it come true

The feminist revolution of Iran has moved beyond the issues of hijab and the morality police. They are more concerned with violence by other agents of the state
indianexpress.com indianexpress.com
 
1670336401770.png


i wonder which religion they'll pick.
 
joluoto said:
India and Indonesia are two different countries.
Click to expand...

You could substitute in "Indiana" and the same warnings about mixing politics and religion would apply.

The Fallout From Indiana’s “Religious Freedom” Law Is Getting Even Uglier

It's been less than 24 hours since Indiana Governor Mike Pence (pictured) signed into law a draconian measure that grants business owners the right to discriminate against gays and lesbians in the name of "religious freedom," and the fallout is already proving to be huge. In addition to...
www.queerty.com www.queerty.com
 
and just for comparison's sake (as we in the US try to put more Christian law into our federal and state governments), here's what we look like...


1670336635325.png
 
joluoto said:
India and Indonesia are two different countries.
Click to expand...
As an American as far as I'm concerned there are only two countries; America and not America :cool:
 
There is much more in this odious omnibus legislation than just banning sex outside of marriage. The other stuff is even more chilling. People should review the whole piece of legislation. Given the three-year waiting and legal review/consultation period before the unmarried-sex ban comes into effect, it may just be a smoke screen for the other draconian nuggets buried in the legislation. If it is not, well then things will just get worse for the unmarried along with every other Indonesian.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy
 
ataraxia said:
The west has had a lot of experience with mixing religion and politics- almost all bad: from the wars of reformation, to the 30 years's war. Its decision to get religion out of politics was the fruit of all this experience, and was not an easy one. I wish many of these countries would study some of this history and experience, and avoid having to reinvent the wheel for themselves.

"

"The experience of the United States is a happy disproof of the error so long rooted in the unenlightened minds of well-meaning Christians, as well as in the corrupt hearts of persecuting usurpers, that without a legal incorporation of religious and civil polity, neither could be supported. A mutual independence is found most friendly to practical Religion, to social harmony, and to political prosperity."
-James Madison

"

All National institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
-Thomas Paine

"Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America….As an engine of power it serves the purpose of despotism; and as a means of wealth, the avarice of priests; but so far as respects the good of man in general, it leads to nothing here or hereafter.”
_Thomas Paine

"They [the Christian clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800
Click to expand...
May I add these two quotes from Jefferson?

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding...

{Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823}”​

Click to expand...
www.goodreads.com

A quote from Letters of Thomas Jefferson

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of...
www.goodreads.com

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
Click to expand...

Thomas Jefferson famous letter to the Danbury Baptists that is the basis of understanding the Establishment Clause in the First amendment. https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpost.html

James Madison Memorial and Remonstrance is much too long to quote, but equally important to freedom from religious tyranny.
billofrightsinstitute.org

Memorial and Remonstrance (1785) - Bill of Rights Institute

billofrightsinstitute.org billofrightsinstitute.org
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom