Confession: I have a problem with drinking...

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Let's see how quickly this thread dies...

No, I don't have a drinking problem... I have a problem with people who drink past the point of light enjoyment or for health benefits. Here is my problem... Drinking past this point turns every person I've ever known (or not known) into idiots. Considering the dumbed down state of our citizenry already... do we really need idiots acting even more idiotic than normal?

I'm so tired of hearing the excuse "I'm sorry, I was drunk at the time". Now, I don't hang out with folks that need to say that, but just relating it to news stories, sit-coms, entertainers... forum posters... etc.

Disclosure: As a rule, I don't drink aside from an occasional glass of wine for the ol' ticker.

Anyone else share this view?

Anyone have a reason why drinking to excess is acceptable?

I don't consider it my place to judge and chastise people for behaving in ways that I personally don't like to be around.

But, fundamentally, I agree with you. I rarely go past 2 or 3 drinks in an entire evening. Usually, it's just one. Something I enjoy the taste of, like wine or a gin and tonic.

I do now and again. My friend took me out and got me pretty drunk after my kitty died. Sometimes a nice drunken sorrow is good for the grieving. More recently, I went to what turned out to be a pretty crappy concert, and had about 4 so I could say I at least justified paying the cover.

But, I know myself when I drink. I have a high tolerance. That is actually a BAD thing if you tend to drink a lot, because neither you nor anyone around you realizes how drunk you are, but your body still has the same limits as anyone else's body. It can be very dangerous. It's nothing to be proud of it, but it does mean I'm less likely to be a jackass in public, and it also means I don't black out.

But yeah, I don't really enjoy being around belligerent drunk people. I vastly prefer intelligent conversation, which rarely happens past 2 drinks. But sometimes, with more introverted people, the conversation opens up a bit after the first drink.

I don't think there's anything wrong with recreational drugs, which is what alcohol is. But it can be used to enhance, or used as an excuse to do things you wouldn't find acceptable otherwise.

 

[the_recruit]

I didn't say you were going to harm anyone, and I don't think O.R. said that either. He said he doesn't like it and doesn't want to be around people doing it.

I don't like Justin Beiber music and I don't want to be around it. That doesn't give me grounds to condemn it as an unacceptable. Some people like that stuff and if they want to do it in the privacy of their own home or in a venue where it won't affect me, then why should I care?

Now he DID assert that most people who get falling-down drunk proceed to act like assholes... and while I might quibble a little I don't entirely disagree. The majority of people, when seriously drunk, become somewhere between annoying and pain-in-the-ass to those who are relatively sober. Not all, necessarily... but most.

Again, why is this a problem if the they're doing it in a way so that they don't bother anyone - in the privacy of their own home or at an appropriate venue like at a college bar on State St at 2:00 in the morning? It's none of your business.

That's the point I've been trying to get at. Drinking is only a "problem" if the drinkers are doing something that negatively affects other people. But, then, the drinking isn't the problem at all - the problem is the doing something that negatively affects other people like shouting and screaming in a residential area in the wee hours.

 

[Mr.Nick]

Ha, I need a drink just to even give a **** about scolding ya'll.

If I didn't drink we wouldn't have fun words like "libtard" or "obamunism" - I "invented" both while highly intoxicated.

Yes, I invented "libtard" while drunk...

I got banned on the site I was on at the time for using the word to boot.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That doesn't matter. It's still possible to drink to "excess" and not bother anyone. That's the mistake you keep making - asserting that being drunk necessarily means you're going to harm someone. That's simply false.

If you read through the thread, I think you'll find I'm definitely not saying that everyone the drinks turns into a dangerous idiot. Thus asking for examples when it IS acceptable, and have had some pretty understandable replies.

However, to say that drinking doesn't have a stupefying effect on some folks and that there aren't annoying and sometimes dangerous drunks simply isn't the fact. Obviously I'm talking about those... and not others.

 

[Mr.Nick]

If you read through the thread, I think you'll find I'm definitely not saying that everyone the drinks turns into a dangerous idiot. Thus asking for examples when it IS acceptable, and have had some pretty understandable replies.

However, to say that drinking doesn't have a stupefying effect on some folks and that there aren't annoying and sometimes dangerous drunks simply isn't the fact. Obviously I'm talking about those... and not others.

Since we're on the topic.

When I get drunk I like to read books or debate online..

When I'm sober or high off weed I have no desire to debate politics - I just make music or BS with my friends/family or go fishing or shooting.

 

[Mr.Nick]

And yet, it is pretty rude to just make that assumption, that you're in conversation with a 'zombie', without some reason for such an assumption.

Bud, you need a beer.

And it is "abnormal" that a libertarian sticks his/her beak into stupid **** like this when I'm giving you the truth.

 

[shrubnose]

Let's see how quickly this thread dies...

No, I don't have a drinking problem... I have a problem with people who drink past the point of light enjoyment or for health benefits. Here is my problem... Drinking past this point turns every person I've ever known (or not known) into idiots. Considering the dumbed down state of our citizenry already... do we really need idiots acting even more idiotic than normal?

I'm so tired of hearing the excuse "I'm sorry, I was drunk at the time". Now, I don't hang out with folks that need to say that, but just relating it to news stories, sit-coms, entertainers... forum posters... etc.

Disclosure: As a rule, I don't drink aside from an occasional glass of wine for the ol' ticker.

Anyone else share this view?

Anyone have a reason why drinking to excess is acceptable?

I don't see "I was drunk" as a valid excuse for anything that anyone does.

 

[Goshin]

I don't like Justin Beiber music and I don't want to be around it. That doesn't give me grounds to condemn it as an unacceptable. Some people like that stuff and if they want to do it in the privacy of their own home or in a venue where it won't affect me, then why should I care?



Again, why is this a problem if the they're doing it in a way so that they don't bother anyone - in the privacy of their own home or at an appropriate venue like at a college bar on State St at 2:00 in the morning? It's none of your business.

That's the point I've been trying to get at. Drinking is only a "problem" if the drinkers are doing something that negatively affects other people. But, then, the drinking isn't the problem at all - the problem is the doing something that negatively affects other people like shouting and screaming in a residential area in the wee hours.

I don't get the strange outrage a couple of people are having here.


He's saying HE DOESN'T LIKE IT.


Anybody can say they don't like anything. Anybody can say they don't approve of anything. That's their opinion and it is their privilege to have a ****ing opinion.


And in any case, he's stating that he doesn't like BEING AROUND people that are drunken assholes, so that pretty much means people who in some way ARE creating a problem for others doesn't it??


I mean it is PRETTY ****ING OBVIOUS that he isn't talking about people who get drunk in private alone and bother nobody, since he wouldn't ****ing know about it then would he?

 

[Goshin]

And it is "abnormal" that a libertarian sticks his/her beak into stupid **** like this when I'm giving you the truth.

You know I've had this problem with libertarians before.... okay, libertarian means you don't believe in COERCING others to live according to your standards, as long as they aren't hurting you.... but libertarian does NOT mean you can/should never-ever EXPRESS DISAPPROVAL of something! Expressing disapproval is NOT COERCION!!

I mean damn you'd think that was kinda obvious...

 

[Goshin]

Once I understand an individual I can say whatever the **** I want...

I suppose in this case I didn't follow my own rules.

Funny how I can own up to my own self that I was wrong yet democrats and progressives can't.

I'm not a democrat or a progressive. I'm not sure what O.R. is but not liking drunks is a pretty non-political position, doncha think? :roll:

 

[the_recruit]

I don't get the strange outrage a couple of people are having here.


He's saying HE DOESN'T LIKE IT.


Anybody can say they don't like anything. Anybody can say they don't approve of anything. That's their opinion and it is their privilege to have a ****ing opinion.


And in any case, he's stating that he doesn't like BEING AROUND people that are drunken assholes, so that pretty much means people who in some way ARE creating a problem for others doesn't it??


I mean it is PRETTY ****ING OBVIOUS that he isn't talking about people who get drunk in private alone and bother nobody, since he wouldn't ****ing know about it then would he?

Relax Goshin

 

[Goshin]

Relax Goshin

Sorry I drank too much this evening LOL :lamo

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm not a democrat or a progressive. I'm not sure what O.R. is but not liking drunks is a pretty non-political position, doncha think? :roll:

That's what I thunk... thinked... drinked... drunk.. thank... Oh hell...

Like everyone, I have my pet peeves... one is defended ignorance and another biggie is drunken idiocy.. Not saying all drinkers are...

I can tolerate just about anything else... except idle chit chat... yeeeesh.

Of course, occasionally... we do stupid things without being drunk... as I proved on another recent thread...

 

[Dezaad]

You're mistaking correlation for causation.

The reason for the correlation could just as well be (and more likely to be IMHO) that healthy people are more likely to choose to drink moderately, not because the alcohol makes them healthier.

Except that you didn't read the article, so you don't know that what you are saying is ignorant.

Even heavy drinkers live longer. It's in the article.

They pretty much cleared up every objection I could think of, so I am thinking the evidence is fairly strong. Nevertheless, they must establish evidence for causation, which they have not done.

However, if the study had gone the other way, it would have been accepted by nearly everyone without question, no causation evidence necessary. At the very least this study blows some of the assumptions everyone makes completely out of the water.

 

[the_recruit]

Except that you didn't read the article, so you don't know that what you are saying is ignorant.

I have read the article. I read it long before you ever posted it actually.

Even heavy drinkers live longer. It's in the article.

Please explain to me how that proves causation. Please explain to me how, if the correlation were as I described - that is if the correlation were caused by the fact that the kind of people who choose to drink moderately (and the people that choose to drink heavily) tend to be healthier than the people who choose to abstain completely (as opposed to the possibility that the act of imbibing is making them healthier) - the results of the study would have to be different. That's a rhetorical question, btw; you can't.

They pretty much cleared up every objection I could think of, so I am thinking the evidence is fairly strong.

Except for the objection I brought up that they have not demonstrated causation.

Nevertheless, they must establish evidence for causation, which they have not done.

Correct. They have not established evidence for causation. That's exactly what I said. I'm glad we now agree.

However, if the study had gone the other way, it would have been accepted by nearly everyone without question, no causation evidence necessary.

Just because one group of people interprets studies incorrectly doesn't mean you should.

At the very least this study blows some of the assumptions everyone makes completely out of the water.

Maybe.

 

[Dezaad]

I have read the article. I read it long before you ever posted it actually.



Please explain to me how that proves causation. Please explain to me how, if the correlation were as I described - that is if the correlation were caused by the fact that the kind of people who choose to drink moderately (and the people that choose to drink heavily) tend to be healthier than the people who choose to abstain completely (as opposed to the possibility that the act of imbibing is making them healthier) - the results of the study would have to be different. That's a rhetorical question, btw; you can't.



Except for the objection I brought up that they have not demonstrated causation.



Correct. They have not established evidence for causation. That's exactly what I said. I'm glad we now agree.



Just because one group of people interprets studies incorrectly doesn't mean you should.



Maybe.

Oh, please. We agreed about causation before you ever made your post. You just made an assumption about my position, look like a fool now, and are trying to save face.

As to what I took to be your ignorance, and my rebuttal of it, it still stands. I wasn't asserting causation. Rather I was rebutting the plausibility of your objection to it. Your objection would not make sense given the evidence presented in the article. I just assumed that if you had read the article, you would have seen this obvious fact, but I guess that was giving too much credit. You would have been better off saying you hadn't read it, because then you could at least plead uncharacteristic negligence, which is less bad than what it looks like now.

 

[the_recruit]

Oh, please. We agreed about causation before you ever made your post. You just made an assumption about my position, look like a fool now, and are trying to save face.

:roll: Here's what you wrote:

Drink because it will cause you to live longer:

Drink because it will cause you to live longer? You never asserted causation? :lol: The only one trying to save face here is you.

As to what I took to be your ignorance, and my rebuttal of it, it still stands. I wasn't asserting causation. Rather I was rebutting the plausibility of your objection to it. Your objection would not make sense given the evidence presented in the article.

My objection is and always has been to causation.

Here is the very first sentence I wrote in my response to your assertion that drinking alcohol will cause one to live longer, an assertion you implied was supported by the article.

You're mistaking correlation for causation.

As much as you'd like, unfortunately you can't re-write the record of what has been posted in this thread.

I just assumed that if you had read the article, you would have seen this obvious fact, but I guess that was giving too much credit. You would have been better off saying you hadn't read it, because then you could at least plead uncharacteristic negligence, which is less bad than what it looks like now.

:roll: Uh-huh.

 

[paddymcdougall]

after catching up on this thread, I think I need to drink more... but don't worry, I drink at home, I mainly get sleepy, so you all won't have to worry about interacting with me being stupid.

 

[Threegoofs]

I drink to make other people more interesting.

 

[TheGirlNextDoor]

I drink to make other people more interesting.

Not enough booze in the world....

 

[corlini]

Yeah I mostly drink for something too do.

 

[Grendel]

Anyone have a reason why drinking to excess is acceptable?

Because it's a free country. You're allowed to slowly kill yourself by soaking your liver in poison if that's what you want to do.

 

[Steelplate]

Although I can understand your view, there is a wide array of reasons why people drink to excess. Some do it to drown their sorrows, or combat their anxieties and/or depression. Some drink excessively just because they like to lose some of their inhibitions that they have in a sober state of mind. Some people drink just because they like to have a light buzz, and de-stress a little at the end of a work day. As for my judging them, as long as they aren't harming someone else in the process, I'm pretty inclined to keep my personal opinions to myself. We all have our coping mechanisms.

I think this is the key right here. If one is at home, enjoying a good alcohol buzz... not hurting anything but perhaps his/her own liver? Have at it.

But if a person is at a bar getting sloppy drunk and having to drive home? That takes it to a different level. We are talking about the potential for property and/or physical destruction.

When I was younger, I rolled the dice many times. Now that I am older, I choose differently. It's all about maturity and a sense of responsibility. You simply don't put yourself in that kind of position if you care about anything other than your self.

 

[Surtr]

Anyone else share this view?

Yes, and I used to drink. Even when I did, I hated going to bars. Dealing with sloppy drunk bros and trollops is far more irritating when sober, too. I flat out refuse to be a designated driver anymore, because of it.

Anyone have a reason why drinking to excess is acceptable?

No, it's inexcusable.

 

[Northern Light]

Let's see how quickly this thread dies...

No, I don't have a drinking problem... I have a problem with people who drink past the point of light enjoyment or for health benefits. Here is my problem... Drinking past this point turns every person I've ever known (or not known) into idiots. Considering the dumbed down state of our citizenry already... do we really need idiots acting even more idiotic than normal?

I'm so tired of hearing the excuse "I'm sorry, I was drunk at the time". Now, I don't hang out with folks that need to say that, but just relating it to news stories, sit-coms, entertainers... forum posters... etc.

Disclosure: As a rule, I don't drink aside from an occasional glass of wine for the ol' ticker.

Anyone else share this view?

Anyone have a reason why drinking to excess is acceptable?

Drinking to excess is acceptable because it has social traditions attached to it, and because it dumbs down society. It's funny how people will attack other kinds of drug use but when your drug of choice is alcohol, you get an instant in, even if you're an obnoxious drunk. Drinking = participation. It's marketed that way.

Alcohol causes the most property damage per capita of any other drug, and it has the highest rehab costs. After pharmaceuticals, alcohol is the drug behind the most accidental deaths and violent crimes. Not heroin, not meth, not cocaine, but alcohol. Yet it's a venerated substance that everyone is expected to take part in. This paradox is a never ending source of bewilderment for me.

I can see why the government likes the People drinking alcohol. There's nothing about it that evolves consciousness, it just dumbs down populations so they won't think creatively and maybe notice flaws in the order of things.