Confederate Flag[W:1518,2230, 2241]

Lethargic Aptitude · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Then what the heck are you trying to say? You trying to say we were wrong for breaking away from England? Come on now. The South had the right to secede, and had made that perfectly clear when they acceded to the union, they had the right to secede from the union

I dont know what you are trying to get me to say, but I am not falling for it; that is what I am saying.

If you want to believe that the South had a right to secede that is your deal, your opinion. But keep in mind that what you are talking about is revolution not secession. The American revolutionists did not secede from the British Kingdom. The only reason the neo-secessionists concentrate on the word secede is because they are making an excuse to take over a portion of the good ole USA. Which is the same tactic that the Confederacy used while starting the Civil War. It did not work then and it will not work now. So give up the fallacious false dilemma bull**** argument, the American Revolution and the Souths anti-American BS are not the same thing.

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

stonewall50 said:
I wasn't saying racism and slavery are equal. I was more highlighting the whole "white supremacy" aspect. To say it was setup as such is kind of a statement that can be applied to any white dominated society of the time. Even enfranchisement the blacks didn't mean much. I would even go so far as to call it "token." Given how the North treated black troops, and the men who lead them. And that went on for a long time in the military (Black Jack Pershing is a good example of what happened to men who lead black units...his name from west point was even less PC).

This is a shallow argument. Because the North treated its black citizenry with something less than egalitarian perfection it means that the Confederacy wasn't founded on the basis of white supremacy? Of course not. The fact remains that the Confederacy was founded to protect slavery politically, economically, and culturally, and cement white superiority forever. The North, the Union, for all of its flaws was not.

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Slavery only became an issue when the yankees were getting their behinds kicked and Europe was gonna intervene and take the South's side. It was never a major issue before

False. Slavery was an issue from the very first shot of the war. The pressure on Lincoln to make the war explicitly about slavery was overwhelming and began from the very beginning. It was only, by his own admission, the need to keep the Border States and other War Democrats in the fight that he didn't acquiesce to early moves to emancipate slaves like Fremont's Proclamation. As soon as the North had solidified its position and cemented its control over the Border States the pressure to make the annihilation of slavery an explicit war goal was overwhelming and Lincoln was free to issue his proclamation.

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Sherman123 said:
False. Slavery was an issue from the very first shot of the war. The pressure on Lincoln to make the war explicitly about slavery was overwhelming and began from the very beginning. It was only, by his own admission, the need to keep the Border States and other War Democrats in the fight that he didn't acquiesce to early moves to emancipate slaves like Fremont's Proclamation. As soon as the North had solidified its position and cemented its control over the Border States the pressure to make the annihilation of slavery an explicit war goal was overwhelming and Lincoln was free to issue his proclamation.

Revisionist history strikes again. The main reason for the War for Southern Independence was the north had way too much power and was pretty much pushing the South around, and the South, as you might expect, did not like that. Later, when the yankees realized it was do or die time, because Europe was fixing to help the South, then they made it all about slavery. Deny it all you want to but that is what really happened

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

FreedomFromAll said:
I dont know what you are trying to get me to say, but I am not falling for it; that is what I am saying.

If you want to believe that the South had a right to secede that is your deal, your opinion. But keep in mind that what you are talking about is revolution not secession. The American revolutionists did not secede from the British Kingdom. The only reason the neo-secessionists concentrate on the word secede is because they are making an excuse to take over a portion of the good ole USA. Which is the same tactic that the Confederacy used while starting the Civil War. It did not work then and it will not work now. So give up the fallacious false dilemma bull**** argument, the American Revolution and the Souths anti-American BS are not the same thing.

Yes they are if you do actual research. Then again I can see how the revisionists have taken things out of context completely

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Then why did Grant own slaves? Even if he freed his his wife had no intention of doing that. If the north was so anti slavery, then why were escaped slaves captured and returned under the Fugitive Slave Act? Also is it that hard for you to understand that the yankees were the ones who had the votes in Congress? The South was pretty much bullied until they couldn't take it anymore. And contrary to myth, Lincoln had no intention of freeing slaves. None. All he wanted was to keep the South from exercising their right to secede whether slavery existed or not.

What? Grant owned a single slave, William Jones, from his father in law Colonel Dent. He freed his slave in 1859. This is an irrelevancy. Furthermore, Grant was one of the most aggressive supporters of the post-war Civil Rights cause.

As for the Fugitive Slave Act... because it was the law? Though there was a strong faction committed to overturning the law the fear of a national split over the issue prevented any further moves.

And votes in Congress, lol, the South wasn't and isn't a nation. This is like claiming that Wyoming is being bullied because it doesn't have as many representatives as California. Welcome to a Representative Democracy.

Lincoln was committed to the abolition of slavery before he even took office. Lincoln was certainly a moderate within the Republican Party but he nevertheless had a clear position and plan which he outlined at the Republican National Convention where he called for the immediate halt to the expansion of slavery and the creation of a system of monetary compensation to slave owners in order to begin the gradual process of abolition. On the fundamental difference between North and South Lincoln stated on numerous occasions that "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted".

As President, Lincoln consistently differentiated between what he termed "my view of official duty" which took the form of doing nearly anything he could to prevent his country from falling apart. However he never wavered in his belief that slavery was wrong and that it ought to be abolished.

To the point "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel this way."

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

digitusmedius said:
It should be removed/prohibited from display on any public space at all levels of government. Private display would have to be allowed. I personally am happy to have moron racists identify themselves. This BS that it's just like the US flag (coming from the very people who support the confederate symbol of treason and slavery) is weak beyond belief. It was under that US flag that slavery was abolished in this country. Yes, atrocities have occurred and in the name of what that flag is supposed to represent (the most recent have been the Iraq War and torture) but by fits and starts we try to correct and get back to first principles of the founding of this country (in that typical hypocrisy of the extreme rightwing, most of the people who find the rebel flag an inspiration are also the most likely to lead us into committing those atrocities and perversions under the US flag). The rebel symbol of slavery and brutality differs entirely because its proponents will never admit they're wrong about anything it represented 150 years ago and still does today. Consider this: the KKK wants to hold a rally on the SC capitol grounds this week to "celebrate" that flag. Now, please, try to tell us that that flag doesn't represent slavery again. The laugh will do us good.

How many slave ships flew any Southern flag? Yeah that's what I thought.

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Revisionist history strikes again. The main reason for the War for Southern Independence was the north had way too much power and was pretty much pushing the South around, and the South, as you might expect, did not like that. Later, when the yankees realized it was do or die time, because Europe was fixing to help the South, then they made it all about slavery. Deny it all you want to but that is what really happened

No. It was entirely about slavery. It was about economics, the economics of an agricultural system underpinned by slavery. It was about politics, the politics of slavery. It was about states rights, the states right to protect slavery. It was about the imbalance of political power, between slave states and free states. Every single issue that is drawn up to deflect away from slavery is itself invariably rooted in the issue of slavery.

Ockham · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Sherman123 said:
No. It was entirely about slavery. It was about economics, the economics of an agricultural system underpinned by slavery. It was about politics, the politics of slavery. It was about states rights, the states right to protect slavery. It was about the imbalance of political power, between slave states and free states. Every single issue that is drawn up to deflect away from slavery is itself invariably rooted in the issue of slavery.

No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

Lethargic Aptitude · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Cryptic said:
No, not per se. Rather, it can be depending on the context that is being used. Today, that context is usually regional pride and / or pride in the miltiary accomplishments of the CSA (lost the war, while winning or drawing most battles).

It is the same with the U.S. flag. Here, for example, is a photo of a northeren rascist using the US flag in bad context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_busing_desegregation#/media/File:Soiling_of_Old_Glory.jpg

So basically you are trying to ignore history and say that the Confederate flag is not offensive because it is just a regional mascot. Which that would be easy for certain residents in the Southern States. For others though it isnt that easy to forget what the Confederate flag stood for historically.

This burying ones head in the sand attitude that people have about the Confederate flag is a amazing phenomena of denial. You want people to just close their history books and ignore that the main point of the Civil War was slavery of an entire race. Could a Jew ignore Nazi history and be ok with a Nazi flag because it represents the history of Germany? Nazi Germany fought a very formidable war. The comparison may sound wild but then I have been told by skin heads that they have swastika tattoos to show off their heritage.

My family is from Alabama (My grandpa, Dad and many other family members are buried in Cullman) I do understand the regional affiliation with the Confederate flag. But that affiliation isnt a benign thing for most white Southerners. Recently country music has exploited the flag along with so called redneck pride. Personally I think that they are a lot of ignorant people that dont know their American history. It is important to know the history of the Civil War so that we do not repeat such bad part of American history. I am not advocating for banishing any flag owned or flown by individuals or groups, just certain flags from government property (unless if they are flown in a legitimate museum of some sort, not the walkway front and center to a State building).

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

Which is a euphemism of saying that slavery was the cause of the war. Absent slavery there would have been no secession and no conflict.

Lethargic Aptitude · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Yes they are if you do actual research. Then again I can see how the revisionists have taken things out of context completely

Lol sure...

digitusmedius · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Thrilla said:
there's no need to remove it at all.
the flag didn't do anything wrong...the flag didn't cause anyone to do anything wrong.

It's an inspirational symbol for racism and white supremacy.

digitusmedius · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
No matter how many times this is repeated that it was entirely about slavery - it doesn't make it true.

What IS true is that slavery was involved in all of the reasons of the Civil War - that is true. However, the war itself was not as you say all about slavery at the time. Yes the abolitionist movement, the Dredd Scott case, all underpinnings but the actual causes of the war were not all about nor only about slavery. I forgot who used the word in a different thread but they used the word, "nexus" as in, slavery was the nexus of the war - and that was probably the most accurate description as nexus means a "connection or tie".

No, just saying it doesn't make it true. Reading the secession declarations of those states does, though. It's either the only or the first item of their specific reason for seceding....i.e., the threat of the abolition of slavery.

digitusmedius · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
How many slave ships flew any Southern flag? Yeah that's what I thought.

How does that excuse the South fighting not just to keep slavery but extend it into the new territories and states? But thanks for the laugh.

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Sherman123 said:
What? Grant owned a single slave, William Jones, from his father in law Colonel Dent. He freed his slave in 1859. This is an irrelevancy. Furthermore, Grant was one of the most aggressive supporters of the post-war Civil Rights cause.

As for the Fugitive Slave Act... because it was the law? Though there was a strong faction committed to overturning the law the fear of a national split over the issue prevented any further moves.

And votes in Congress, lol, the South wasn't and isn't a nation. This is like claiming that Wyoming is being bullied because it doesn't have as many representatives as California. Welcome to a Representative Democracy.

Lincoln was committed to the abolition of slavery before he even took office. Lincoln was certainly a moderate within the Republican Party but he nevertheless had a clear position and plan which he outlined at the Republican National Convention where he called for the immediate halt to the expansion of slavery and the creation of a system of monetary compensation to slave owners in order to begin the gradual process of abolition. On the fundamental difference between North and South Lincoln stated on numerous occasions that "You think slavery is right and ought to be extended; we think it is wrong and ought to be restricted".

As President, Lincoln consistently differentiated between what he termed "my view of official duty" which took the form of doing nearly anything he could to prevent his country from falling apart. However he never wavered in his belief that slavery was wrong and that it ought to be abolished.

To the point "I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel this way."

Actually if Grant helped anyone it was the Lee family. He threatened to leave his then fairly high ranking government job if the wrong against the Lee family was not righted. Thankfully it was, but by the time it was the damage was already done. Grant's wife had been quoted as saying that she would never free her slaves because "good help is just too hard to find." I guess if your state wasn't having an equal say you would be upset also. That is one reason we have the electoral college in place.

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

digitusmedius said:
How does that excuse the South fighting not just to keep slavery but extend it into the new territories and states? But thanks for the laugh.

Laugh at truth, but that's your problem, not mine. Reality is what it is.

haymarket · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

digitusmedius said:
No, just saying it doesn't make it true. Reading the secession declarations of those states does, though. It's either the only or the first item of their specific reason for seceding....i.e., the threat of the abolition of slavery.

And no matter how many times people reprint the direct and plain words of southern state governments making it crystal clear that the preservation of slavery was a key reason - if not THE key reason for their actions, the far right here and the confederate apologists will find a way to stay firm and comfortable in their self imposed mental delusions that it was about some age idea of FREEDOM and LIBERTY.

Its pretty hopeless.

Ockham · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Sherman123 said:
Which is a euphemism of saying that slavery was the cause of the war. Absent slavery there would have been no secession and no conflict.

It's not a euphemism - it's the truth. Slavery connected all the issues because slavery was the means of production in the South at the time. However, if you asked someone from the North or South in 1861 if the war was all about slaves they'd laugh at you. Even the North in the mid-1800's did not see black slaves as men or women. Slavery was not the flashpoint - it was economics, taxes, states rights, etc., and slavery was connected to all those things.

The root causes of the Civil War can be broken down into States Rights, Slavery, Political and Economic considerations. Slavery, while listed as a separate cause, had significant influence on the other three. An understanding of the above influences of the time will reveal, however, that slavery, while factoring into the various causes in different degrees, should not be considered the sole cause of the Civil War.

Overview

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

FreedomFromAll said:
Lol sure...

Yes I am sure. Plenty of history has been taken completely out of context, current actions prove that to be true

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

haymarket said:
And no matter how many times people reprint the direct and plain words of southern state governments making it crystal clear that the preservation of slavery was a key reason - if not THE key reason for their actions, the far right here and the confederate apologists will find a way to stay firm and comfortable in their self imposed mental delusions that it was about some age idea of FREEDOM and LIBERTY.

Its pretty hopeless.

Yeah its hopeless to convince those of us who know the truth that the revisionist version is true

HorseLoverGirl · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Sherman123 said:
No. It was entirely about slavery. It was about economics, the economics of an agricultural system underpinned by slavery. It was about politics, the politics of slavery. It was about states rights, the states right to protect slavery. It was about the imbalance of political power, between slave states and free states. Every single issue that is drawn up to deflect away from slavery is itself invariably rooted in the issue of slavery.

Do yourself a favor, read The South Was Right. It will enlighten you

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Actually if Grant helped anyone it was the Lee family. He threatened to leave his then fairly high ranking government job if the wrong against the Lee family was not righted. Thankfully it was, but by the time it was the damage was already done. Grant's wife had been quoted as saying that she would never free her slaves because "good help is just too hard to find." I guess if your state wasn't having an equal say you would be upset also. That is one reason we have the electoral college in place.

Um... ok? What does this have to do with anything? I suppose I'm glad Grant helped the Lee family and freed his slave.

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

HorseLoverGirl said:
Do yourself a favor, read The South Was Right. It will enlighten you

Oh my god the James Kennedy book? This is all starting to make a lot more sense.

Sherman123 · Jun 30, 2015

Re: Confederate Flag

Ockham said:
It's not a euphemism - it's the truth. Slavery connected all the issues because slavery was the means of production in the South at the time. However, if you asked someone from the North or South in 1861 if the war was all about slaves they'd laugh at you. Even the North in the mid-1800's did not see black slaves as men or women. Slavery was not the flashpoint - it was economics, taxes, states rights, etc., and slavery was connected to all those things.

Overview

No, they wouldn't have laughed at me. It was widely understood that slavery was the underlying theme which tied the entirety of the animus between North and South together. Furthermore you are right it was about economics, the economics of slavery. It was about taxes and tariffs, taxes and tariffs which impacted the finances of a slave based agricultural export economy. It was about states rights, a states right to protect the institution of slavery. Absent slavery there would have been no conflict.

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