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Commuists Against Oppression - Anybody else see an oxymoron?!

Republic_Of_Public

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You can always bank on the hard Left for a giggle:

Demonstrate against repression in Poland


Yep, the very party which oppressed free speech, jailed prominent trade unionists and put men capable of independent leadership into the gulag there, wants 'repressive' laws scrapped in the free Poland! (Perhaps they still can't get over the fact someone else is now in charge.)



And the party claiming to stand for 'peace', despite the fact that the Soviet system it idolises massacred millions in invasions, purges and famines, also celebrates the victory of the North Vietnamese invaders after a decade of war:

Celebrating the Liberation of Vietnam


Unscrupulous Communism is the pure, lethal alcohol from which tame liberal socialism has been extracted, diluted and sweetened for public consumption.


No wonder the morality of Britain was dealt a death blow with Labour communists like Straw, Clarke or Mandelson packing the Cabinet! And with the likes of Eric Pickles taking over, let's hope any new old Reds are poachers-turned-gamekeepers in the fight against PC!


Eric Pickles tells of communist past as Eric the Red - Times Online
 
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FinnMacCool

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Although I'm unclear about this particular political party's platform, I will say that communism is not as black and white as you might think. For instance, there are many anti-authoritarian communists such as council communists, anarcho-communists, libertarian marxists etc.
 

Regicollis

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As FinnMacCool mentions communism is not a monolithic belief and great political variety exist between communists. I can understand if people feel cautious towards the reformed communist parties of the old Soviet empire as these organisations were indeed heavily involved with a lot of crimes during the period of authoritarian communism. However I think people who join a communist party today don't do it for the same reasons as they did back then - today no communists can be blamed for being communist for careerist purposes; those who join are likely to actually believe the official ideology.

Regarding the demonstration it is indeed a worthy cause and one that should concern everyone who cares for democracy or freedom of speech. The Polish government is planning to ban "totalitarian symbols", thus making it illegal to display a hammer and sickle or a swastika. I think a democracy should be so committed to freedom of speech that it does not try to block people from having certain views, no matter how distasteful these views are. The best defence against totalitarian tendencies is to face it in open, not to use their own methods and ban the paraphernalia connected to it. Experience from other countries like Germany or Hungary also shows that such a ban don't prevent totalitarians from committing acts of violence or from gaining popular support.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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'A great political veriety' also exists on the far and hard Right, but you don't hear leftists voicing quibbles on whether particular National Front members are ardent Hitlerites or not. Even the BNP, despite its reforms, is still damned as universally Nazi.

And Communist gripes about Poland wanting to ban extremist flags is a laugh, given the nation's virtual destruction and oppression suffered by the Poles under those very agents from 1939-90!


Judging Communism in practice, even since the end of the Cold War, is a far more reliable arbiter than wading through different editions of pulp theory. So let's take a look at a few of Communism's great world statesmen:




STALIN - The granddaddy of them all. Took over the oppressive, murderous and backstabbing Soviet domination over the other so-called Peoples' Parties where Lenin left off. Killed people in all he did, even when trying to build a modern industrial economy. One-time ally of Hitler and imperialist who imposed the Iron Curtain. Responsible for up to 51 million deaths due to famine, purges, incompetent war leadership and imposition of political opinion. Almost succeeded in instigating a Hitler-style pogrom before ill health brought upon his death. Communist world obliged to mourn his passing.


Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

12 Feb 2005 ... Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Twentieth Century .... MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s. ...
users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm - Cached - Similar




KRUSCHEV - Incompetent successor to Stalin who almost crashed the world into nuclear war due to paranoia, smuggling rockets and warheads to bases in Cuba. He also plunged Russia into an embarassing bread famine, built the Berlin Wall to keep citizens from escaping the Socialist Paradise and continued Stalin's starvation of Ukranian peasants by confiscating their grain and selling it to the West. Shared in Stalin's death toll as his right-hand man during the Purges.




MAO TSE TUNG - Instigator of various 'revolutions', each drenched in the blood of millions. Hated any kind of authority and education outside his personal remit. He even created a rift between China and the USSR due to a control-freak personality usually a boon for a Communist leader. Killed up to 70,000,000 or more innocents.


Mao: The Unknown Story - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to Number of deaths under Mao: The book opens with the sentence "Mao Tse-tung, ... was responsible for well over 70 million deaths in ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Untold_Story - Cached - Similar




POL POT - Deranged gang leader who caused Cambodia to revert to the Dark Ages, forcing city dwellers to live in communes, killing the educated and those wearing spectacles. Spent his last years skulking in a jungle to avoid punishment. Death toll: 2,000,000.


The History Place - Genocide in the 20th Century: Pol Pot in Cambodia 1975-1979




CEAUCESCU - Romanian despot who impoverished his country, yet built Europe's most grandiose palace as his people starved. His only real successes were to organise constant self-tributary parades, plus to talk Britain's LABOUR government into swapping valuable military hardware and plans for pig iron, rotting fruit and the contents of Romania's scrap yards. (He even made them feel pally enough to have them give him a State visit and honourary scientific doctorate for his wife!) Was finally deposed by the People and shot after a military trial for genocide and the brutal treatment of his people at the hands of the Securitate, a secret police even Ceaucescu referred to as 'terrorists' at his trial. Deaths on his non-existent conscience: 60,000. (A comparitive moderate!)


Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls and Casualty Statistics for ...

He estimates the death toll for the Communist regime after the war ... 1990 Time: A Romanian court found Ceausescu guilty of genocide, with 60000 victims. ...
users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm - Cached - Similar




CASTRO - The darling of the West's deluded campus bores, whose clean tap water (!) and efficient school indoctrination system earns him their undying devotion. Even The Beatles approached him for a record deal in 1968, yet his Communist system is at least as oppressive and murderous as another, especially worse than the system of government he replaced. He was a co-conspiritor in teh secret plan to transform Cuba into a nuclear war launch base in the anticipated kick-off of World War 3. Rose to illegal power on the promise to turn each Cuban into his own landowner, yet they starve and are exploited year on year. The shooting of dissidents and perceived enemies started in 1959 and never truly ceased, bringing the small island's body count to a hefty 97,000 in total.


Twentieth Century Atlas - Death Tolls

1999 Houston Chronicle (editorial by Agustin Blazquez): 97000 deaths caused by Castro. This number seems to have originally come from an unpublished study ...
users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm - Cached - Similar

(Is that why 23 Labour MPs recently signed an early Day Motion in Parliament PRAISING Castro
for his 'achievements', as well as Harriet Harman herself calling him a 'hero of the Left'!?)




...And so on. From General Jeruzelski who installed a brutal Martial Law to quash the needs of the Polish workers, to Honicke who imprisoned the East German people in his own rotting Stasi-based slave state to Kim Il Sung who pestered Stalin into letting him start the Korean War, there is NOT A SINGLE COMMUNIST LEADER who provided the egalitarianism, freedom and Democracy which the Far Left always breaks its promises on!


_____________________________________________

COMMUNISM'S DESTABALISING EFFECT ON THE WORLD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wccIqjrGGMk
 
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FinnMacCool

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First, you make a blanket statement about communists.

Then when we correct you, you proceed to reinforce your blanket statement by providing us with an annoying list of so called "communist leaders" and their attrocities.

Now this begs the question: Are you really interested in intelligent debate or are you just trolling for reactions?
 

Manc Skipper

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It seems the only one seeing oxymorons is the OP.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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OK, my fellow Oxymorons, name me a single Communist leader who didn't murder anyone rather than adopt the usual leftist tactic of the ad-hominem attack.

Half my family are Polish. We don't need to be told about Communism as we have real live victims of it here.


Indeed, if I am trolling for a reaction then it doesn't say much for those actually reacting!
 
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FinnMacCool

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Name me a single capitalist leader who didn't murder anyone.

Your argument has no weight. All I'm simply trying to say is that not all communists are authoritarian.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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Indeed they're not. There are always people at the bottom who think they'll get what's apparently on offer and end up fooled. I don't think they're evil, despite whatever else.

However, as I say, Communism in practice shows up time and again what you really get.

And as for naming a capitalist leader who never killed anyone, you can take your pick, even from those in Labour. Capitalism can thrive best in a democracy, a non-imposed system of government where leaders don't have to kill people to hold power in its name, just run for election.

But if you can also provide your own profiles, for example of Rightist dictators who use a basic capitalism, then we'll see where we go.
 
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FinnMacCool

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However, as I say, Communism in practice shows up time and again what you really get.
But as I keep reiterating, there are different strains of communism. The ones that have been put into practice are not only arguably not real communism but also are widely considered by communists today to be reactionary. There are many different types of communists. To name a few that you mentioned, Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists etc. To name a few you didn't mention, Anarcho-Communists, Council Communists, Libertarian Marxists, Trotskyists, etc. etc.
 

Republic_Of_Public

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So how come none of these 'softy' communists ever ended up running a country to my knowledge? Perhaps you can pull a card from your sleeve and stump me on this one. All the communist countries I've ever heard of oppressed its people after promising a 'classic' manifesto of some kind, sounding nice and soft on paper.

In Poland dissidents and young malcontents were locked in hospitals, culture was heavily censored and wages were fixed with true employment options limited. Even when not killing, the propensity for freedom was curtailed.

Alright, let's reduce the scale. Take these communist councillors and mayors in France. Can they work well in a local democracy and co-operate with other coucillors?

What could local communists deliver which democrats are unable to? And have they?
 
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This thread is full of lulz.

There is no "irony" here; communists have always opposed repression from bourgeois states.
 

FinnMacCool

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So how come none of these 'softy' communists ever ended up running a country to my knowledge?
Because they are few in number. Also, many communists believe in a vanguard party, which I believe to be the reason why most revolutions turn into the type of **** that we saw in China and in the USSR.

Alright, let's reduce the scale. Take these communist councillors and mayors in France. Can they work well in a local democracy and co-operate with other coucillors?
Maybe. I'm unfamiliar with these councilors you speak of, but I will say that my idea of communism is more like decentralizerd committes run democratically.
 

Black_Zawisza

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But as I keep reiterating, there are different strains of communism. The ones that have been put into practice are not only arguably not real communism but also are widely considered by communists today to be reactionary. There are many different types of communists. To name a few that you mentioned, Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists etc. To name a few you didn't mention, Anarcho-Communists, Council Communists, Libertarian Marxists, Trotskyists, etc. etc.
There's a slight difference between the former and latter groups. Every member of the latter group of ideologies has never been put into practice on a large scale. Every so-called communist state in history? All led by mass murderers. So should a red flag (heh, get it? :lol:) go up every time a communist revolution overthrows a government and takes over? Abso-f***ing-lutely. :roll:

I don't quite think it's an oxymoron universally, but a political party that claims to be against repression and yet idolizes the Soviet system? That's a load of crap.

I hate communism with a passion, but funnily enough, I owe my life to it. Had it not driven my father's family out of Cuba, he'd never have met my mother. :lol:
 
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Republic_Of_Public

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This thread is full of lulz.

There is no "irony" here; communists have always opposed repression from bourgeois states.
Funny you should talk about repression......

The Soviet Union
Lenin killed 4 million people - men, women and little children. ... Trotsky supported the killing of all political opponents of the regime - including ...
markhumphrys.com/soviet.html - Cached - Similar

A Comparison of the Characters and Beliefs of Lenin and Stalin ...
do this, Lenin and his Red Guards had killed thousands of opponents, which is an impact on the Russian people as well. It is clear that ...
A Comparison of the Characters and Beliefs of Lenin and Stalin :: Papers - Cached - Similar

As you have Lenin's picture as your avatar, those links are a true gift.


Though I do applaud Finn's repeated condemnation of the tyrannies of previous communist governments. But because it is my understanding that communism and democracy clash, there doesn't seem much to be done to rehabilitate the doctrine because of what all these past leaders have done in its name. The National Front and British National Party have plenty of trouble establishing their branches of nationalism due to the influences of Nazism over their years. (Of the old guard, only Marx seems to get off partially scot free because he wan't actually a national leader.)
 
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FinnMacCool

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There's a slight difference between the former and latter groups. Every member of the latter group of ideologies has never been put into practice on a large scale. Every so-called communist state in history? All led by mass murderers. So should a red flag (heh, get it? :lol:) go up every time a communist revolution overthrows a government and takes over? Abso-f***ing-lutely. :roll:
I agree. I'm not here to argue for authoritarian communists. But the real difference between the two groups is that one seeks to take over power and the other does not.
 
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As you have Lenin's picture as your avatar, those links are a true gift.
Oh man you totally showed me with those links to random internet sites!!! Why don't you quote Richard Pipes next?
 

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I agree. I'm not here to argue for authoritarian communists. But the real difference between the two groups is that one seeks to take over power and the other does not.
Oh, I see. All the members of the latter group, they don't actually want to be put into practice? They're all just fantastic daydreams? Well, then, looks like communism's been completely discarded as a practical blueprint for a society, then.
 
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Black_Zawisza

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Oh man you totally showed me with those links to random internet sites!!! Why don't you quote Richard Pipes next?
You don't address even one point brought up in those articles. You simply ignore them. If you can invalidate them, please do. Us inhabitants of the wonderful world known as Reality invite you.

But, naturally, you won't. Instead, you'll probably just cover your ears and scream "I CAN'T HEAR YOU, LALALALA" when someone proves that your idol was a mass murderer. Pathetic.
 
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FinnMacCool

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Oh, I see. All the members of the latter group, they don't actually want to be put into practice? They're all just fantastic daydreams? Well, then, looks like communism's been completely discarded as a practical blueprint for a society, then.
You misunderstood me. What I mean is that one group seeks to dominate other people by taking over power, the other group wants to dissolve power and give it to the people. In practice, these anti authoritarian communists who could be anarchists or just in favor of a very de centralized state of government, would have democratic committes or councils or whatever and would be supportive of direct democracy.

In fact, in the beginning of the Russian Revolution this type of communism existed. But Lenin, who was an authoritarian, arrested these people and shot them. He also killed the anarchists in the Ukraine calling them "Counter Revolutionaries". Believe me, I am no fan of Lenin.
 
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You don't address even one point brought up in those articles.
I'm not here to construct his argument for him. I'm not going to go through websites that he pulled off Google in a few seconds because he is either unwilling or unable (my guess is the latter) to construct an argument of his own. I'm smart enough to realize that that isn't a valid form of debate, unlike yourself and the other troll in this thread.
 

Black_Zawisza

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You misunderstood me. What I mean is that one group seeks to dominate other people by taking over power, the other group wants to dissolve power and give it to the people. In practice, these anti authoritarian communists who could be anarchists or just in favor of a very de centralized state of government, would have democratic committes or councils or whatever and would be supportive of direct democracy.

In fact, in the beginning of the Russian Revolution this type of communism existed. But Lenin, who was an authoritarian, arrested these people and shot them. He also killed the anarchists in the Ukraine calling them "Counter Revolutionaries". Believe me, I am no fan of Lenin.
Power is given to the people? Can people choose to live outside the system if they desire so? '(Please enlighten me, I'm simply ignorant about these "idealistic communist ideologies".) If so, then I don't have a problem with them, other than the fact that they will be less efficient than capitalism. But that sort of communism is morally sound.



I'm not here to construct his argument for him. I'm not going to go through websites that he pulled off Google in a few seconds because he is either unwilling or unable (my guess is the latter) to construct an argument of his own. I'm smart enough to realize that that isn't a valid form of debate, unlike yourself and the other troll in this thread.
Not a valid form of debate? There's nothing wrong with saving time by taking an article, saying it represents your position, and inviting the opposition to counter it.

Until you invalidate some of the points in that article, I'm going to assume that you can't. Sorry, but that's how debate works.
 
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Not a valid form of debate? There's nothing wrong with saving time by taking an article, saying it represents your position, and inviting the opposition to counter it.
Copy/pasting a link to an article is not constructing an argument, it is spamming.

Until you invalidate some of the points in that article, I'm going to assume that you can't.
Good for you.
 

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Power is given to the people? Can people choose to live outside the system if they desire so?
It depends on who you ask. I would say yes though. However, if your a capitalist, I don't think it would work out too well because without private property, how can capitalism function?
 

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It depends on who you ask. I would say yes though. However, if your a capitalist, I don't think it would work out too well because without private property, how can capitalism function?
If one chooses to opt out of the system, everyone else must agree to respect your rights to your property. That's what it would necessarily entail.
 
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