• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Comments during Bible class this morning...

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
The man teaching Bible class was teaching from James. He somehow got onto a tangent about the wars in the Middle East. He said that he doesn't think God would want us there because in scripture is says that vengeance is God's. He asked something like, "What do you think this country would be like if we'd just let God take care of it and not gone over there?"

He changed the subject soon after (back to the actual topic).

Do you think God wants us to sit back and let Him handle things like 9/11?

I think if we had, we would've been perceived as weak and they would've struck us again. I wonder how many dead Americans it would take for that teacher to agree that we need to get up and fight back?
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,922
Reaction score
33,451
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The man teaching Bible class was teaching from James. He somehow got onto a tangent about the wars in the Middle East. He said that he doesn't think God would want us there because in scripture is says that vengeance is God's. He asked something like, "What do you think this country would be like if we'd just let God take care of it and not gone over there?"

He changed the subject soon after (back to the actual topic).

Do you think God wants us to sit back and let Him handle things like 9/11?

I think if we had, we would've been perceived as weak and they would've struck us again. I wonder how many dead Americans it would take for that teacher to agree that we need to get up and fight back?

do you think America is now safer from subsequent terroristic acts because we went to war in iraq/ME?
 

cpwill

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
65,701
Reaction score
33,524
Location
USofA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
i urge this man to attempt to drive without his hands on the wheel "because God is in control of his life", right?

the section he is citing is a call not to engage in revenge; not apathy and inaction.
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,229
Reaction score
14,235
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I think God wants us to defend ourselves. Vengeance and justice belong to God, but Scripturally God worked through leaders to enact that vengeance and justice. The Book of Judges is a prime example. Israel's enemies (the Philistines) would attack and raid ancient Israel. The Jews would cry out to God for deliverance, and God would save them by appointing a Judge who was a military leader and through God's power defeated the Philistines. Also, vengeance and justice is also God's in the sense that people can live and die extremely wicked, they will be judged for their life's actions. We are not to seek revenge, but to know that in the end God will judge.
 
Last edited:

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
And after all that he said, "I'm not anti-war or anything..." :confused:
 

SheWolf

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
35,960
Reaction score
12,740
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
The man teaching Bible class was teaching from James. He somehow got onto a tangent about the wars in the Middle East. He said that he doesn't think God would want us there because in scripture is says that vengeance is God's. He asked something like, "What do you think this country would be like if we'd just let God take care of it and not gone over there?"

He changed the subject soon after (back to the actual topic).

Do you think God wants us to sit back and let Him handle things like 9/11?

I think if we had, we would've been perceived as weak and they would've struck us again. I wonder how many dead Americans it would take for that teacher to agree that we need to get up and fight back?

There are two wars in the Middle East.. only one was a direct response to 9/11 and that war wasn't controversial.

Now if you want to argue that we had to invade Iraq or fear being struck again for being weak.. then there is the debate. And no, we didn't have to invade Iraq for those reasons
 

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
do you think America is now safer from subsequent terroristic acts because we went to war in iraq/ME?

Safer? Yes. Could it still happen? Yes.

When you let a thief who robbed your house know that you have absolutely no intentions of stopping him or anyone from taking anything from you again, why WOULDN'T he rob your house again and again and again? When you point your rifle at him and tell him if he comes back, he'll have a bullet in his head, he most likely ain't coming back.

Common sense. We have to defend ourselves.
 

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
There are two wars in the Middle East.. only one was a direct response to 9/11 and that war wasn't controversial.

Now if you want to argue that we had to invade Iraq or fear being struck again for being weak.. then there is the debate. And no, we didn't have to invade Iraq for those reasons

He was talking about both wars.
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,922
Reaction score
33,451
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Safer? Yes. Could it still happen? Yes.

When you let a thief who robbed your house know that you have absolutely no intentions of stopping him or anyone from taking anything from you again, why WOULDN'T he rob your house again and again and again? When you point your rifle at him and tell him if he comes back, he'll have a bullet in his head, he most likely ain't coming back.

Common sense. We have to defend ourselves.

since you recognize a subsequent terroristic act against us could still happen, then why do you also think we are safer because of the wars we started?
 

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
since you recognize a subsequent terroristic act against us could still happen, then why do you also think we are safer because of the wars we started?

"Safer" doesn't mean we won't ever be attacked again. Our defenses could be down for any number of reasons.

Now....a question for you...

Do you believe we should've gone to war after 9/11? Do you believe the war in Afghanistan has made us safer? (try to leave Iraq out of it for a second.)
 

SheWolf

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
35,960
Reaction score
12,740
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
He was talking about both wars.

That is interesting..

But I understand what he is talking about. Instead of arguing over the wars, he is saying that his faith is so strong in God that he knows God will avenge him.. It's just a matter of faith, and he is showing he has A LOT of faith in God. More faith in God than American policy...
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,922
Reaction score
33,451
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
"Safer" doesn't mean we won't ever be attacked again. Our defenses could be down for any number of reasons.

Now....a question for you...

Do you believe we should've gone to war after 9/11? Do you believe the war in Afghanistan has made us safer? (try to leave Iraq out of it for a second.)


hell no
we should have addressed the problem

losing 4000 American patriots and enormous national treasure in ill considered wars without a defined objective was a VERY stupid thing to undertake

but i look forward to your explaining why we should now be safer due to those wars even tho you acknowledge that another 9/11 is a very real possibility
 

joe six-pack

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
384
Location
Six-Pakistan
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
The man teaching Bible class was teaching from James. He somehow got onto a tangent about the wars in the Middle East. He said that he doesn't think God would want us there because in scripture is says that vengeance is God's. He asked something like, "What do you think this country would be like if we'd just let God take care of it and not gone over there?"

He changed the subject soon after (back to the actual topic).

Do you think God wants us to sit back and let Him handle things like 9/11?

I think if we had, we would've been perceived as weak and they would've struck us again. I wonder how many dead Americans it would take for that teacher to agree that we need to get up and fight back?
Didn't Christ say something about turning the other cheek? I think there is a lot in the Bible that would support non-violence and a lot that would support revenge. I guess it's a matter of faith and individual interpretation. I don't think showing strength or not is the problem. We were attacked on Sept 11th because of Palestine and Israel.

That conflict is about realestate, not religion. It's a battle of territory. So, really after catching the people responsible, we should have focused on that issue. That's my take on it. I really don't think Iraq made us any safer, nor did it deal with any root problems. If anything it destabilized the region and allowed Afghanistan to fall by the wayside.

I think if we helped Israel and Palestine resolve their issue, terrorism attacks would drop world-wide. Iran would no longer have a scape-goat and the US would look heroic. That is the key, I think, to peace in the middle-east. At least, less violence as a result of genocidal war-fair.
 
Last edited:

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Do you believe we should've gone to war after 9/11? Do you believe the war in Afghanistan has made us safer? (try to leave Iraq out of it for a second.)


Is that "hell no" to both questions?

we should have addressed the problem

Can you be less vague?

losing 4000 American patriots and enormous national treasure in ill considered wars without a defined objective was a VERY stupid thing to undertake

but i look forward to your explaining why we should now be safer due to those wars even tho you acknowledge that another 9/11 is a very real possibility

Yes, I believe we are safer since our defenses are up and we've killed many leaders of al qaeda. Could another terrorist attack happen? Of course. We're not perfect in our intelligence (obviously) nor in our defense.

What should have been done after 9/11? And I bet we agree on Iraq.
 

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Didn't Christ say something about turning the other cheek? I think there is a lot in the Bible that would support non-violence and a lot that would support revenge. I guess it's a matter of faith and individual interpretation. I don't think showing strength or not is the problem. We were attacked on Sept 11th because of Palestine and Israel.

That conflict is about realestate, not religion. It's a battle of territory. So, really after catching the people responsible, we should have focused on that issue. That's my take on it. I really don't think Iraq made us any safer, nor did it deal with any root problems. If anything it destabilized the region and allowed Afghanistan to fall by the wayside.

I think if we helped Israel and Palestine resolve their issue, terrorism attacks would drop world-wide. Iran would no longer have a scape-goat and the US would look heroic. That is the key, I think, to peace in the middle-east. At least, less violence as a result of genocidal war-fair.

Haven't we been trying for decades to help them resolve their issue? I believe the radical Muslims of the world will not stop terrorizing the U.S. until their flag flies over the White House.
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
51,922
Reaction score
33,451
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Haven't we been trying for decades to help them resolve their issue? I believe the radical Muslims of the world will not stop terrorizing the U.S. until their flag flies over the White House.

could you share with us how we have actually helped them resolve their issue(s)?
 

joe six-pack

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
384
Location
Six-Pakistan
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
Haven't we been trying for decades to help them resolve their issue? I believe the radical Muslims of the world will not stop terrorizing the U.S. until their flag flies over the White House.
"Radical" Muslims are a minority.

I'm talking about dealing with root problems to change views of the majority.
 

Josie

No Day But Today
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
39,207
Reaction score
20,998
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
"Radical" Muslims are a minority.

Agreed.

I'm talking about dealing with root problems to change views of the majority.

Okay, but it's the radical Muslims who are planning and carrying out terrorist activities. You said....


I think if we helped Israel and Palestine resolve their issue, terrorism attacks would drop world-wide.

How would helping the majority deal with their problems stop the minority from what they're set on doing?
 

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,080
Reaction score
3,916
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
God has no place in politics. Anything you decide to do is not coming from God, but your own egoic mind. People who claim to act under God's will or know what God wants are the most delusional people in this world, whether they are committing good or evil. They are trying to interpret a perfect being/force through the lens of their imperfect minds, and think they know better. These people are one of the primary forces of evil in today's world and they exist in all corners.
 

joe six-pack

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 22, 2010
Messages
1,123
Reaction score
384
Location
Six-Pakistan
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
How would helping the majority deal with their problems stop the minority from what they're set on doing?
I didn't say it would stop. Violence will never stop as long as human beings have free will.

I said it would drop; which I meant the rates would drop. The reason being is that the biggest recruitment tool would be removed. Regardless of the humanitarian consequences of resolving Palestine, it would have a dramatic effect on the view most Mid-Eastern people would have on the West in general.

But "terrorism" violence is no worse than any other kind of violence that kills innocents. I'm not sure why it's considered worse than dropping bombs on people.
 

SheWolf

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
35,960
Reaction score
12,740
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
You guys aren't discussing the issue in terms of religious faith. Is there something wrong with this guy believing and having faith in God protecting him moreso than having faith that invading Iraq will protect him?

I don't think there is anything wrong with his faith... It isn't dangerous and it isn't offensive. One's faith is a personal thing, and I think he was just trying to share his own faith. Instead of arguing politics, it's best to keep it in context to really understand his message...
 

SheWolf

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2010
Messages
35,960
Reaction score
12,740
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
Also just want to add that I respect this guys faith more than politicians getting up in church or in front of the country, and saying God told them to start a war.. Or God is speaking to them and telling them that we are doing his work by fighting a war, or voting them into office.

I don't believe God tells people to start wars.. or even tells people to engage in politics. I don't think serving God has anything to do with practicing politics, and I say that because I have read the bible and it's not in the bible.
 

Catz Part Deux

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
28,721
Reaction score
6,738
Location
Redneck Riviera
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Safer? Yes. Could it still happen? Yes.

When you let a thief who robbed your house know that you have absolutely no intentions of stopping him or anyone from taking anything from you again, why WOULDN'T he rob your house again and again and again? When you point your rifle at him and tell him if he comes back, he'll have a bullet in his head, he most likely ain't coming back.

Common sense. We have to defend ourselves.

How convenient.

And yet, how do you make your words jibe with this?

Matthew 5:

38“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’g 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighborh and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemiesi and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Luke 6
27“But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Have you ever considered that perhaps the very reason that Christianity grew as it did in ancient Rome was because the Christians themselves were being faithful to Christ's teaching in this regard? They literally laid down in front of the lions, like lambs being led to the slaughter, because their faith was so great in the power of God.

I think that modern Christians like to interpret things according to what is convenient, and what you want, and and that you rarely consider what Christ actually taught. Christianity was never supposed to be painless. And, it wasn't supposed to be enforced or protected at the point of a gun.

More on this subject: http://christianbookshelf.org/maclaren/expositions_of_holy_scripture_a/non-resistance.htm
 
Last edited:

CriticalThought

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
19,568
Reaction score
8,354
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I wonder how many dead Americans it would take for that teacher to agree that we need to get up and fight back?

It's common sense. If you strike out at those who struck you, you are likely to make more enemies in the process and ensure that the conflict will continue. If you pull back and reach out to the rest of the world, then it alienates those who struck at you even further.

The proof is in the current reality. Al Qaeda has never been stronger and we will likely face more terrorist attacks in the future.
 

Catz Part Deux

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
28,721
Reaction score
6,738
Location
Redneck Riviera
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Last edited:
Top Bottom