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Clinging to your Bible!

Apostle13 said:
So what you imply purposely or no is that what scripture I post is unbelievable... You seem to think, and openly, that you are debating a bunch of ignorants here.
Where does the confusion end..?

Perhaps you are better suited for children's ministry.

No. I was stating the fact that Bible verses mean nothing to those who do not believe in the Bible.

As for debating "ignorants" and "Where does the confusion end..?", I'm not ignorant or confused. Are you?

I've worked in children's ministry for many years before preaching. It's an honor to work with children. Anyone with any real spirituality knows that.

Based upon your tone and your lack of maturity I am beginning to suspect you lack any significant "experience" with God beyond a mental assertion to his existance. Once you come into the fulness of the faith and receive the Holy Ghost with speaking in other tongues you will understand what I'm talking about. Your faith will graduate from "belief" to "experience" and then your "experience" will become "relationship".

Your words only show how combative and confrontational you are in your spirit.

I'm praying for you. You've got a lot of potential.
 
Upstart said:
I would be a fool if I just believed the Bible out of blind faith. It is a decision that will affect my eternal destination.

Well, then it's lucky for you that you grew up in an area that is predominantly Christian. Just think of all those poor lost souls that God has turned his back on just because they were raised under another faith.

Upstart said:
I believe in the Bible because it is the most accurately copied ancient book in existance,

At the very least, it is the most heavily edited book in history. There are literally hundreds of books, gospels and stories that men decided wouldn't be included in the Bible, several for purely political reasons, such as the Gospel of Mary, which showed Mary as being favoured above the other apostles, and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which showed Jesus to be a somewhat petulant child. Neither of which were considered acceptable.

Upstart said:
because it holds prophecies that have come true,

Such as?

Upstart said:
because it is both historicaly and scientificly accurate when it speaks on those matters,

Sorry, it is no more accurate than other stories that are set against an historical backdrop. The Illiad has a similar level of historical accuracy. Any Tom Clancy novel is more accurate than the Bible. That doesn't mean that they are true.

Upstart said:
and because of Jesus. I believe in Jesus that He has paid for my sins, and that some day soon He will return for His people.

The operative word being "believe".

Upstart said:
If you don't want to believe it,

Why should anyone want to believe it in preference to any other holy book? More to the point, why should anyone accept it more than any other unsubstantiated group of stories?

Upstart said:
then I am wasting my time, because you will always have some reason, some excuse why it's not good enough for you.

You mean reasons like it being illogical, unsubstantiated and contradictory?

I'm sorry, but your religious beliefs are no more valid than anyone elses.
 
Apostle13 said:
Anywayzz... Dawg I know it was overkill, and yet that is the point... That there are just so many prophecies and many more connected to the crucifixion story alone, like Psalms 22. The bible mixed with faith validates itself from a believer's view.

The only thing that you did was to use part of the Bible as a prophesy for another part of the Bible.

Back to the circular argument of trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible.
 
MrFungus420 said:
The only thing that you did was to use part of the Bible as a prophesy for another part of the Bible.

Back to the circular argument of trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible.
Circular yes... Argument no... That is why I said bible mixed with faith to give a believer's perspective as to why it is proof enough... As it is our foundation.
 
Apostle13 said:
Here are the ones most familiar dealing with the actual crucifixion... Your beloved Nostradamus was never so accurate;

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

To be born of a virgin -
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14
To be born in Bethlehem -
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Micah 5:2
Betrayed by a friend -
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

Psalms 55:12-14
Sold for thirty pieces of silver -
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Zechariah 11:12
Money obtained to be cast to the potter -
And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zechariah 11:13
Disciples to forsake him -
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Zechariah 13:7
Accused by false witnesses -
False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

Psalms 35:11
Accused by false witnesses -
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

Psalms 109:2
To be dumb before accusers -
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7
Smitten and spat in the face -
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 50:6
To be wounded and bruised -
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:5
To fall under the cross -
My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.

Psalms 109:24
To be crucified with thieves -
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:12
Hands and feet pierced -
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:16
People to shake their heads -
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head,

Psalms 22:7
People ridiculed him -
He trusted on the LORD that he would, deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalms 22:8
People to stare astonished -
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:17
Garments parted and lots cast -
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psalms 22:18
Committed himself to God -
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psalms 31:5
None of his bones to be broken -
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Psalms 34:20
Friends to stand afar off -
My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

Psalms 38:11
Offered gall and vinegar -
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psalms 69:21
People to shake their heads -
I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.

Psalms 109:25
People to stare astonished -
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Psalms 22:14
His heart broken -
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Isaiah 52:14
Forsaken by God -
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:1
His side to be pierced -
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah 12:10
Darkness to cover the land -
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Amos 8:9
Buried in a rich mans tomb -
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:9
To rise from the dead -
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 16:10
He is Risen.......
.......for it is written!

Matthew 8:16-17
Jesus Himself took our Infirmities & Sicknesses -
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


If you need the alternative/fulfilled scriptures they are all found within the Gosples... But surely you know the story..?
Not one of these is a prophecy-come-true. They only seem so to you because of your belief in Jesus as the son of God, a story not verified.
So, if you don't mind, again, show a prophecy that came true outside the Bible. You know, like WW2 or 911 or the Kennedy's being assassinated. That was the jist of that poster's claim, afterall. Faith is not a fulfilled prophecy.
 
ChristopherHall said:
No. I was stating the fact that Bible verses mean nothing to those who do not believe in the Bible.
Underestimating the power of the Word? It is no fact at all. It is merely what they may tell you.
As for debating "ignorants" and "Where does the confusion end..?", I'm not ignorant or confused. Are you?
Babes must first begin with milk and the eat meat when they are older. You cannot force steak down a babe's mouth, they will outright reject it or choke. To begin with scripture is often like trying to feed a newborn T-Bone Steak. Share what God has done in your life and how you feel him, experience him, and know him. Invite them to the same experience.
While this is a true analogy... It speaks high volume to your pride of character having openly stated it among the very ones whereby you attempt to witness. If a preacher is compelled to call down a preacher for his method of conveyance is it so wise to do in a public forum..? And even then without some prayerful considerance..?
I tend not to believe any here are ignorant and never did I hint at your being such. However, you author confusion by attacking me as a preacher and being one yourself.
Apostle13 said:
Perhaps you are better suited for children's ministry.
ChristpherHall said:
I've worked in children's ministry for many years before preaching.
Will now pride prevent you from seeing this beyond coincidence..?
Are you out of the secret place..? Or do we share beneath the same wings..? I can only speak of and for myself... I do however tend to believe the latter concerning you.
Based upon your tone and your lack of maturity I am beginning to suspect you lack any significant "experience" with God beyond a mental assertion to his existence. Once you come into the fullness of the faith and receive the Holy Ghost with speaking in other tongues you will understand what I'm talking about. Your faith will graduate from "belief" to "experience" and then your "experience" will become "relationship".
Your words only show how combative and confrontational you are in your spirit.
While the speck of sawdust may be in my eye, a telephone pole could well be in your own... We should never cease to examine ourselves continually.
Just so you know how far of the mark you were here... I have been through the fire and through the flood... I was raised Pentecostal and spent much time there as a child/youth and son of a worship leader having matured in the faith/spirit by way of much hearing as well, doing. I speak the tongue of both angels and men. I did not choose Him...He chose me... Even still, of all the saints I am least. My testimony is sweet and often shared... Yet, without Love I am nothing.

I'm praying for you. You've got a lot of potential.
While I do appreciate that... I should tend to think much, if not most, of my potential has been fully realized... But then one can never really know.
 
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Apostle13 said:
Here are the ones most familiar dealing with the actual crucifixion... Your beloved Nostradamus was never so accurate;

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

To be born of a virgin -
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14
To be born in Bethlehem -
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Micah 5:2
Betrayed by a friend -
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

Psalms 55:12-14
Sold for thirty pieces of silver -
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Zechariah 11:12
Money obtained to be cast to the potter -
And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zechariah 11:13
Disciples to forsake him -
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Zechariah 13:7
Accused by false witnesses -
False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

Psalms 35:11
Accused by false witnesses -
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

Psalms 109:2
To be dumb before accusers -
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7
Smitten and spat in the face -
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 50:6
To be wounded and bruised -
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:5
To fall under the cross -
My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.

Psalms 109:24
To be crucified with thieves -
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:12
Hands and feet pierced -
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:16
People to shake their heads -
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head,

Psalms 22:7
People ridiculed him -
He trusted on the LORD that he would, deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalms 22:8
People to stare astonished -
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:17
Garments parted and lots cast -
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psalms 22:18
Committed himself to God -
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psalms 31:5
None of his bones to be broken -
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Psalms 34:20
Friends to stand afar off -
My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

Psalms 38:11
Offered gall and vinegar -
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psalms 69:21
People to shake their heads -
I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.

Psalms 109:25
People to stare astonished -
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Psalms 22:14
His heart broken -
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Isaiah 52:14
Forsaken by God -
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:1
His side to be pierced -
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah 12:10
Darkness to cover the land -
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Amos 8:9
Buried in a rich mans tomb -
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:9
To rise from the dead -
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 16:10
He is Risen.......
.......for it is written!

Matthew 8:16-17
Jesus Himself took our Infirmities & Sicknesses -
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


If you need the alternative/fulfilled scriptures they are all found within the Gosples... But surely you know the story..?
Good work, brother! I've got some really good prohecies concerning the fates of ancient nations, I'll post them tonight.
 
ngdawg said:
Not one of these is a prophecy-come-true. They only seem so to you because of your belief in Jesus as the son of God, a story not verified.
So, if you don't mind, again, show a prophecy that came true outside the Bible. You know, like WW2 or 911 or the Kennedy's being assassinated. That was the jist of that poster's claim, afterall. Faith is not a fulfilled prophecy.
Yea sorry... I did miss the jist there.
Well there are some but you would have to realize and accept the symbolical/metephorical references/allegories found throughout the biblical text. It is admittingly an in depth study, conclusively vague without the faith factor.
A bit of a stalemate... Faith vs. science.
As a believer I should think that God intended it that way... Afterall, it is the bible that tells us that it is faith that pleases God.
Upstart said:
Good work, brother! I've got some really good prohecies concerning the fates of ancient nations, I'll post them tonight.
Thanks. Cool... I'd like to compare case I missed something.
 
Apostle13 said:
Underestimating the power of the Word? It is no fact at all. It is merely what they may tell you.
He's pretty spot on. You wish all would believe as you do, but the fact is, some take the bible literally and to heart and some don't. So, yes, the verses mean nothing to those who don't believe them.

Apostle13 said:
While this is a true analogy... It speaks high volume to your pride of character having openly stated it among the very ones whereby you attempt to witness. If a preacher is compelled to call down a preacher for his method of conveyance is it so wise to do in a public forum..? And even then without some prayerful considerance..?
I tend not to believe any here are ignorant and never did I hint at your being such. However, you author confusion by attacking me as a preacher and being one yourself.
You appear to have a pentiant for tossing insulting asides then claiming you've been attacked, ie; telling another he'd be better suited for children's ministries. Interesting how two 'preachers' can go at each other-not very preacherly, don't you think?
Apostle13 said:
Will now pride prevent you from seeing this beyond coincidence..?
Are you out of the secret place..? Or do we share beneath the same wings..? I can only speak of and for myself... I do however tend to believe the latter concerning you.
While the speck of sawdust may be in my eye, a telephone pole could well be in your own... We should never cease to examine ourselves continually.
Just so you know how far of the mark you were here... I have been through the fire and through the flood... I was raised Pentecostal and spent much time there as a child/youth and son of a worship leader having matured in the faith/spirit by way of much hearing as well, doing. I speak the tongue of both angels and men. I did not choose Him...He chose me... Even still, of all the saints I am least. My testimony is sweet and often shared... Yet, without Love I am nothing.
Again, an aside of insult as you raise yourself up. Regardless of where your paths take you, the first rule is accept your brethren, is it not? I don't understand these volleys between people whose core is the same.

Apostle13 said:
While I do appreciate that... I should tend to think much, if not most, of my potential has been fully realized... But then one can never really know.
Potential can always be improved upon.
 
ngdawg said:
I don't understand these volleys between people whose core is the same.
...And this statement verifies the confusion result.
As for the rest it is not worth reply, as it is at a level you cannot possibly comprehend. Chris knows, and it was just between us.
I regret its publicity.
 
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Apostle13,

My addressing you publicly about this was to allow those reading this to see that there is a Christian who understands them and where they are coming from. I was also allowing you to perhaps openly show understanding and perhaps unload the "Bible machine gun" so that you and your friend could really talk. Your response showed that you were operating in the flesh, that is if you have the Holy Ghost. Please don't take it personally, we've all been there...and I assure you we will be there again. We need eachother to bring clarity and balance sometimes.

"Open rebuke is better than secret love." - Proverbs 27:5 (King James Version)
 
Apostle13 said:
...And this statement verifies the confusion result.
As for the rest it is not worth reply, as it is at a level you cannot possibly comprehend. Chris knows, and it was just between us.
I regret its publicity.
Whether you regret or not...do not assume any more of me regarding comprehension, etc., than you have pointed out of my assumptions previously. It too is insulting....I don't know why you insist on talking down to people instead of just stating your views and their clarifications.
You'd go further and be clearer if, instead of telling someone they are wrong or insulting them, to state the whats, whys and wheres as to what is different and do so succinctly. Never underestimate what I or anyone else can 'comprehend'.
Just my 2c....
 
Mr. D said:
Clinging to your Bible

The Bible has no purpose or validity unless you choose to believe in FAITH that God guided the hand of man to write it. If you can accept that unsubstantiated silly myth, then you are the type of psychologically needy person that would have accepted Islam and the Koran as the one true religion if you were born in Iraq. You would have believed whatever religion was an accident of where and when you were born. Psychologically, you need to have an explanation of creation and what will happen to you after your death. You cannot face life without answers whether they are real or mythical. There are some us who can face life with a set of morals and ethics to live by that do not require answers to questions that cannot be answered. We choose not to allow the fear of what may, or may not come after death turn us towards ancient superstitions and mythical stories in modern kinder and gentler wrappings! Organized religon MUST demand acceptence in FAITH! FAITH is required because without unthinking FAITH or real questioning or application of logic we will see the sillyness of the ranting of the Wizard of OZ hidding behind the curtain.

There may be a God, but I doubt he's the petty, small, punishing, judgmental, worship needing tyrant invented by man from his own picture of a medieval father and King! What all powerful God would be so small as to demand worship! Only man is that small, insecure and petty!

What if the Bible, or Koran, etc. are not written by the hand of God? It would explain the stories that defy all common sense and logic and the mountains of inconsistencies. It would explain the difference in humanism seen in the New Testament as compared to the Old Testament since it was what was going on at the time it was written. The Old Testament Fire and Brimstone of vindictive punishment just was selling so well anymore, just like in advertising and politics a new approach was needed.

At least think about it before you get defensive!

Talk about being small and petty. You gotta spew off with all this hate speech towards religion. Try to be more tolerant, though it may be difficult for you.
 
MrFungus420 said:
It is easy enough to make the argument that the Bible promotes a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out unbelievers. It is equally easy to quote scripture from either holy book to support that contention.
Those are the words of one who has never used his mind. Look around you for crying out loud!! Who destroyed the Twin Towers? Who burns cars in France? Who kidnaps people and decapitates them on tv? Who is burning the Denmark flag? Who is responsible for acts of crime and violence around the world? The muslims. Not the Christians.
 
Upstart said:
Those are the words of one who has never used his mind. Look around you for crying out loud!! Who destroyed the Twin Towers? Who burns cars in France? Who kidnaps people and decapitates them on tv? Who is burning the Denmark flag? Who is responsible for acts of crime and violence around the world? The muslims. Not the Christians.

Now now. Don't be so hasty! Christians, unfortuately, commit enough crimes; like when priests fondle little boys (ugh!).
 
Donkey1499 said:
Now now. Don't be so hasty! Christians, unfortuately, commit enough crimes; like when priests fondle little boys (ugh!).
I did not say that Catholics do not commit crimes. I said that Islam is a religion of hate. Look at the works of Christianity and then those of muslims.

And Catholicism is not Christianity.
 
Upstart said:
I did not say that Catholics do not commit crimes. I said that Islam is a religion of hate. Look at the works of Christianity and then those of muslims.

And Catholicism is not Christianity.

Catholicism is a branch of christianity. Just as protestantism is a branch of christianity. I'm Presbyterian, which is a branch of Protestantism.
 
Donkey1499 said:
Catholicism is a branch of christianity. Just as protestantism is a branch of christianity. I'm Presbyterian, which is a branch of Protestantism.
Not to be argumentative, but Catholicism is really more of a hybrid between Christianity and paganism. It broke away from Christianity when large amounts of pagans were taken into the Church. The pagans stuck to their poly-theistic beliefs and began to worship the saints and especially Mary along with Jesus. Mary quickly took Jesus' place and the Inquisition began when the true Christians left the now polluted church.
 
Upstart said:
Not to be argumentative, but Catholicism is really more of a hybrid between Christianity and paganism. It broke away from Christianity when large amounts of pagans were taken into the Church. The pagans stuck to their poly-theistic beliefs and began to worship the saints and especially Mary along with Jesus. Mary quickly took Jesus' place and the Inquisition began when the true Christians left the now polluted church.

I'll have to disagree with that, at least until you show some credible proof.
 
Donkey1499 said:
I'll have to disagree with that, at least until you show some credible proof.
I don't know how to prove it, and it's not really worth it. Why do you disagree?
 
Upstart said:
I don't know how to prove it, and it's not really worth it. Why do you disagree?

Because I'm an ass..... but really, I don't ever remember reading that anywhere. Then again, I'm not a catholic.
 
Upstart said:
Islam is a religion of hate.

Many say Christianity is as well. I don't believe either of them are.


Upstart said:
Look at the works of Christianity and then those of muslims.

Many good works on both sides, many terrible works on both sides.
 
Upstart said:
Those are the words of one who has never used his mind. Look around you for crying out loud!! Who destroyed the Twin Towers? Who burns cars in France? Who kidnaps people and decapitates them on tv? Who is burning the Denmark flag? Who is responsible for acts of crime and violence around the world? The muslims. Not the Christians.

What I said was perfectly true, you can quote either holy book to support the contention that either Christianity or Islam is a religion of hate that seeks to eliminate unbelievers. I said nothing about acts being committed. However, if you look at the history of Christianity, it is at least as violent as Islam is.
 
ChristopherHall said:
I will never deny that organized religion has often been used by extremists to manipulate and control, wage war, and exploit. However, if you study the subject thoroughly you will discover that atheistic regimes holding to fascism and communism have murderered far more people in far less time to secure their power.
Pretty ignorant or misinformed statement. Facist Germany was very christian. Yet how many jews died in the holocost?

ChristopherHall said:
For example the highest estimates of those killed by Christianity (namely Catholicism) in various inquisitions in various parts of the world throughout a 1,260 year is rougly 85 million people. Communist Russia murdered 20 million, China 65 million, Vietnam estimated 1 million, North Korea 2 million, Cambodia 2 million, Eastern Europe 1 million, Latin America 150,000, Africa 1.7 million deaths, and the list could go on and on like this. These numbers are based on the 20th century alone. While yes there has been abuse and bloodshed performed by the Church...the actual cost in human lives pales in comparison to the death toll from atheistic regimes.
The Crusades, lets see how many died from the war commanded by god? Jeruselem and so called Holy land. Essentially a war that has been raging for 2000 years.
What are terrorists again? Islamic fundamentalists
Imperialist Japan that religiously believed thier emperor to be the son of the heavens, how many Chinese, Koreans did they slaughter?
 
ngdawg said:
Whether you regret or not...do not assume any more of me regarding comprehension, etc., than you have pointed out of my assumptions previously. It too is insulting....I don't know why you insist on talking down to people instead of just stating your views and their clarifications.
You'd go further and be clearer if, instead of telling someone they are wrong or insulting them, to state the whats, whys and wheres as to what is different and do so succinctly. Never underestimate what I or anyone else can 'comprehend'.
Just my 2c....
Are you then therefore baptized in water, and in Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues..? I should think not..? That was my only true assumption. It is a Spiritual level of comprehension, that which I spake.
...But I can see where you might take insult, especially in light of our history here... I'd be lying if I said it was not intentional..:2razz:
 
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