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Clinging to your Bible!

ngdawg

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Well, he wasn't God, because there isn't proof of one, now is there....
That would leave insane or a liar...probably both. He was a rabbi who took his teachings to an evangelical level until then unseen by the Jewish priests and their councils. He was contradictory, proclaiming all people the children of God, but then himself the one true son of God and again BEING God. He went from preaching that belief in God heals to taking healing by laying of hands.
So you tell me, if you were to read the gospels objectively with no forethought, would they not portray the rising ego and lessening sanity of a religious rabbi questioning his lot in life?
 

Upstart

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Jesus went to His death because of His claiming to be God. What kind of a liar would die for his lie? Also, Jesus lived a perfect life. How could a man be so perfect in His life that the blood-thirsty Jews could not find a thing to accuse Him of except of His claim to be God?.

He also could not be crazy, for He spoke such words of wisdom that the greatest minds even today quote Him.
 

tecoyah

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Upstart said:
So, do you think He was God, insane, or a liar?
Why the limited choices? Not trying to force a certain answer are you.....why not a man....with advanced compassion and understanding....who never claimed to be God.
 

ngdawg

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Upstart said:
Jesus went to His death because of His claiming to be God. What kind of a liar would die for his lie? Also, Jesus lived a perfect life. How could a man be so perfect in His life that the blood-thirsty Jews could not find a thing to accuse Him of except of His claim to be God?.

He also could not be crazy, for He spoke such words of wisdom that the greatest minds even today quote Him.
Plenty of people will die for their lies to carry their act through to the end, so that's a moot point. Most national leaders went to their deaths proclaiming their lies to their bitter ends.
Judas turned Jesus into the Roman authorities. Blood-thirsty jews? We wouldn't be slightly prejudiced now, would we? Hardly Christian-like, seeing as how you worship a jew. Let's not forget, there is only one God, so some man walking the desert proclaiming himself to be so would not fare well....what would YOU do if someone proclaimed it now?
I can quote him too. Doesn't mean a damned thing, really. A good quote comes from anywhere.
 

Upstart

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tecoyah said:
Why the limited choices? Not trying to force a certain answer are you.....why not a man....with advanced compassion and understanding....who never claimed to be God.
He claimed to be God, and the Jews understood it. That's why they hated Him so much.
 

Upstart

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ngdawg said:
Blood-thirsty jews? We wouldn't be slightly prejudiced now, would we? Hardly Christian-like, seeing as how you worship a jew. Let's not forget, there is only one God, so some man walking the desert proclaiming himself to be so would not fare well....what would YOU do if someone proclaimed it now?
I can quote him too. Doesn't mean a damned thing, really. A good quote comes from anywhere.
I did not say that all Jews are evil. I meant that those Jewish leaders hated Jesus and followed Him around trying to get Him to slip up. As for one God, I believe that the Bible teaches that God is made up of three people: the Father, Son (Jesus), Holy Spirit. There is proof of this in the first chapter of Genesis:"Let US make man in OUR own image."
Also, the Hebrew word for God is used in the plural in that context.
 

ngdawg

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Upstart said:
I did not say that all Jews are evil. I meant that those Jewish leaders hated Jesus and followed Him around trying to get Him to slip up. As for one God, I believe that the Bible teaches that God is made up of three people: the Father, Son (Jesus), Holy Spirit. There is proof of this in the first chapter of Genesis:"Let US make man in OUR own image."
Also, the Hebrew word for God is used in the plural in that context.
Changing from blood-thirsty to stalking teachers is quite a feat of back-pedalling ;) When someone goes not only against their teachings, but openly defies those who taught, it does tend to tick a few off. Jewish priests and their council of rabbis were not only the religious leaders, but the law-makers as well, so yea, I can see them being a bit peeved...
But note what you said: "I believe", which brings this to the crux of the thread. Clinging to your belief as you interpret it to be.
You claim that phrase in Genesis as proof of God as a multiple entity. I could see it as written by council in council language, that there is no 'I', but only 'we'. Another version of the bible might have it as singular, which would negate your statement.
It comes down to how we accept and which to believe. There probably is not one single line in both old and new testaments that couldn't be interpreted multiple ways or picked apart as seen fit for any system of thought, from blind faith to scholarly investigation.
 

ChristopherHall

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The following is what I believe:

I believe Jesus had a duel nature. He was both fully man and fully God. I believe there was an unexplainable "oneness" between the man Christ Jesus (Son of God) and God Almighty (the Father).

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

The blood of Jesus is called the blood of God:

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV)

Jesus is said to be "God with us":

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV)

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)

Jesus is also refered to as being The everlasting Father:

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

Jesus is the human tabernacle of Almighty God. Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Jesus is both the Father and the Son in one.

Jesus is God.
 

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The point of the thread is that you have to accept the Bible as the word of God or everything else falls apart! If you don't buy that premise the rest has no meaning! All the Bible quotes become babble!

What if the Bible cannot be proven to be the word of God? What if it is the word of men? Kowabunga! We'd have to fall back on reason, common sense, logic and science in making decisions rather than having mindless adherence and blind faith to silly unbelieveable stories and contradictory teachings that require Bible scholarship! Have you noticed that Bible scholars have to interpret the meaning of the Bible for you. Left with just the words and your common sense, on your own, it sounds just a wee bit unbelieveable and contradictory!
 
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ChristopherHall

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Mr. D said:
The point of the thread is that you have to accept the Bible as the word of God or everything else falls apart! If you don't buy that premise the rest has no meaning! All the Bible quotes become babble!

What if the Bible cannot be proven to be the word of God? What if it is the word of men? Kowabunga! We'd have to fall back on reason, common sense, logic and science in making decisions rather than having mindless adherence and blind faith to silly unbelieveable stories and contradictory teachings that require Bible scholarship! Have you noticed that Bible scholars have to interpret the meaning of the Bible for you. Left with just the words and your common sense, on your own, it sounds just a wee bit unbelieveable and contradictory!

I'm not trying to prove anything...I cannot prove there is a God or that the Bible is true, it's a matter of faith. What I said was,

The following is what I believe:

I believe you're mature enough to understad that.
 

MrFungus420

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Upstart said:
God is the one who decides what is in the Bible, God makes the laws.

Back to the circular argument. "How do we know the Bible is correct, because God says so. How do we know God says so, because it's in the Bible."

Besides, it wasn't god who decided what is in the Bible, it was the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century CE.

If you're familiar with the Apocrypha, they are among the books that the Council of Nicaea decided would not be included in the Bible.

Upstart said:
Other religions,such as Islam, was made by a man.

Those who follow those other religions would be equally justified to claim that their religion is the real one, and Christianity is one of the false ones made up by men.

Upstart said:
Not Christianity. We don't decide what we want in the Bible and what we want to be the law.

Well, you don't decide what is in the Bible, it was decided over 300 years after the supposed death of Jesus by a group of men.

Upstart said:
Muhammed(I don't know how to spell it) was a very immoral man. He married a 9 year old girl. He made a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with him and enslave whoever they want.

It is easy enough to make the argument that the Bible promotes a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out unbelievers. It is equally easy to quote scripture from either holy book to support that contention.


The only reason that you feel the Bible to be true is that you lready believe in it. The reason that you believe in it is (most likely) that you were brought up to do so. If you had been born in an Islamic community, you would probably be denouncing Christianity and calling Islam the one, true religion.
 

kal-el

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Upstart said:
Because if you want to live however you want, you will pay for your sin.

Why do people feel obligated to follow commandments that may have been made up by ancient transcribers, the bible has gone through so many translations, it cannot be the word of a perfect god, as a perfect entity would ensure that no one would misinterpret his word, and not come off sounding like a complete jackass in his book.:lol:

Christians are not perfect. We are not sinless.

Wow, did you think of this statement yourself, or did your sky leprechaun aid you.:lol:

But we have realized that stuff like stealing and fornication is sin,

It doesn't take a christian to realize certain things are bad, that's common sense, it's not a god-given gift to Christians.


and that we cannot hope to redeme ourselves, and that Christ, the Son of God, paid for our sins. We trust in Christ, not ourselves. We still sin, but we try not to.

Right, but what you meant to say is you "believe" that. Jesus sounds alot like a carbon copy of the Egyptian god horus, his story could have been made up prior to the Jews being exiled. http://www.adam.com.au/bstett/BJesusandHorus74.htm
 
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Upstart

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MrFungus420 said:
Back to the circular argument. "How do we know the Bible is correct, because God says so. How do we know God says so, because it's in the Bible."

Besides, it wasn't god who decided what is in the Bible, it was the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century CE.

If you're familiar with the Apocrypha, they are among the books that the Council of Nicaea decided would not be included in the Bible.



Those who follow those other religions would be equally justified to claim that their religion is the real one, and Christianity is one of the false ones made up by men.



Well, you don't decide what is in the Bible, it was decided over 300 years after the supposed death of Jesus by a group of men.



It is easy enough to make the argument that the Bible promotes a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out unbelievers. It is equally easy to quote scripture from either holy book to support that contention.


The only reason that you feel the Bible to be true is that you lready believe in it. The reason that you believe in it is (most likely) that you were brought up to do so. If you had been born in an Islamic community, you would probably be denouncing Christianity and calling Islam the one, true religion.
I would be a fool if I just believed the Bible out of blind faith. It is a decision that will affect my eternal destination. I believe in the Bible because it is the most accurately copied ancient book in existance, because it holds prophecies that have come true, because it is both historicaly and scientificly accurate when it speaks on those matters, and because of Jesus. I believe in Jesus that He has paid for my sins, and that some day soon He will return for His people.

If you don't want to believe it, then I am wasting my time, because you will always have some reason, some excuse why it's not good enough for you.
 

ngdawg

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List two 'prophecies that came true' and I'll match them from the writings of Nostradamus.
Historically accurate? Would that be because the ancient cities of the Middle East are that old? So are the Incan ruins. Perhaps they hold more truth than the bible.
As stated, you believe it because it was given to you to do so. Had you grown up in Iran, you would probably be following the Koran. Had you grown up in India, you may be Hindu. We follow what we learn, what we're comfortable with and what we think we understand. No one is born believing in Jesus, they have to be taught to. Then we make the choice to accept what we are taught or not.
 

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ngdawg said:
List two 'prophecies that came true' and I'll match them from the writings of Nostradamus.
Historically accurate? Would that be because the ancient cities of the Middle East are that old? So are the Incan ruins. Perhaps they hold more truth than the bible.
As stated, you believe it because it was given to you to do so. Had you grown up in Iran, you would probably be following the Koran. Had you grown up in India, you may be Hindu. We follow what we learn, what we're comfortable with and what we think we understand. No one is born believing in Jesus, they have to be taught to. Then we make the choice to accept what we are taught or not.

I received the Holy Ghost. Speaking in other tongues, the whole works. I've also known 5 people to be healed of cancer...all in our church. Of course the doctors admit they don't know how or why, yet they assure us that there must be a "rational explaination".

God is a lot like "love". If you've never felt him or experienced him...it's a waste of time to try to prove he exists.
 

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ChristopherHall said:
I received the Holy Ghost. Speaking in other tongues, the whole works. I've also known 5 people to be healed of cancer...all in our church. Of course the doctors admit they don't know how or why, yet they assure us that there must be a "rational explaination".

God is a lot like "love". If you've never felt him or experienced him...it's a waste of time to try to prove he exists.


you also find the same accounts of miracles in many othre religions.
 

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nkgupta80 said:
you also find the same accounts of miracles in many othre religions.

First, there is a measure of truth in all religion. Second, there are often other forces at work.
 

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ngdawg said:
List two 'prophecies that came true' and I'll match them from the writings of Nostradamus.
Here are the ones most familiar dealing with the actual crucifixion... Your beloved Nostradamus was never so accurate;

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

To be born of a virgin -
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 7:14
To be born in Bethlehem -
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Micah 5:2
Betrayed by a friend -
For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him: But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance. We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company.

Psalms 55:12-14
Sold for thirty pieces of silver -
And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.

Zechariah 11:12
Money obtained to be cast to the potter -
And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

Zechariah 11:13
Disciples to forsake him -
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Zechariah 13:7
Accused by false witnesses -
False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not.

Psalms 35:11
Accused by false witnesses -
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.

Psalms 109:2
To be dumb before accusers -
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7
Smitten and spat in the face -
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Isaiah 50:6
To be wounded and bruised -
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:5
To fall under the cross -
My knees are weak through fasting; and my flesh faileth of fatness.

Psalms 109:24
To be crucified with thieves -
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Isaiah 53:12
Hands and feet pierced -
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psalms 22:16
People to shake their heads -
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head,

Psalms 22:7
People ridiculed him -
He trusted on the LORD that he would, deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Psalms 22:8
People to stare astonished -
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Psalms 22:17
Garments parted and lots cast -
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Psalms 22:18
Committed himself to God -
Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psalms 31:5
None of his bones to be broken -
He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Psalms 34:20
Friends to stand afar off -
My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

Psalms 38:11
Offered gall and vinegar -
They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psalms 69:21
People to shake their heads -
I became also a reproach unto them: when they looked upon me they shaked their heads.

Psalms 109:25
People to stare astonished -
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Psalms 22:14
His heart broken -
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Isaiah 52:14
Forsaken by God -
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:1
His side to be pierced -
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zechariah 12:10
Darkness to cover the land -
And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Amos 8:9
Buried in a rich mans tomb -
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:9
To rise from the dead -
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 16:10
He is Risen.......
.......for it is written!

Matthew 8:16-17
Jesus Himself took our Infirmities & Sicknesses -
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.


If you need the alternative/fulfilled scriptures they are all found within the Gosples... But surely you know the story..?
 

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Apostle13 said:
Here are the ones most familiar dealing with the actual crucifixion... Your beloved Nostradamus was never so accurate;

If you need the alternative/fulfilled scriptures they are all found within the Gosples...

You and I believe the Bible. However, if an individual believes that the Bible has been "re-worked" to seemingly facilitate prophecy, quoting scripture will mean nothing to him or her.

The way to reveal God is to invite the individual into an "experience" with God and allow them to accept or decline. Once they experience God or have what some call a "God encounter", they will begin searching the scriptures with new eyes.

Share your testimony. Again...God is like love. One must often feel him and experience him for themselves before they can believe. Once they have encountered God they will then desire to delve into the deep and marvelous truths of the Bible.

Babes must first begin with milk and the eat meat when they are older. You cannot force steak down a babe's mouth, they will outright reject it or choke. To begin with scripture is often like trying to feed a newborn T-Bone Steak. Share what God has done in your life and how you feel him, experience him, and know him. Invite them to the same experience. Should they decline...respect their choice and just pray for them. Should they accept with a sincere heart...they will never be the same.
 
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Apostle13

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ChristopherHall said:
You and I believe the Bible. However, if an individual believes that the Bible has been "re-worked" to seemingly facilitate prophecy, quoting scripture will mean nothing to him or her.

The way to reveal God is to invite the individual into an "experience" with God and allow them to accept or decline. Once they experience God or have what some call a "God encounter", they will begin searching the scriptures with new eyes.

Share your testimony. Again...God is like love. One must often feel him and experience him for themselves before they can believe. Once they have encountered God they will then desire to delve into the deep and marvelous truths of the Bible.

Babes must first begin with milk and the eat meat when they are older. You cannot force steak down a babe's mouth, they will outright reject it or choke. To begin with scripture is often like trying to feed a newborn T-Bone Steak. Share what God has done in your life and how you feel him, experience him, and know him. Invite them to the same experience. Should they decline...respect their choice and just pray for them. Should they accept with a sincere heart...they will never be the same.
ChristopherHall said:
John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

The blood of Jesus is called the blood of God:

Acts 20:28
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (KJV)

Jesus is said to be "God with us":

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV)

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)

Jesus is also refered to as being The everlasting Father:

Isa 9:6
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (KJV)

Jesus is the human tabernacle of Almighty God. Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Jesus is both the Father and the Son in one.

Jesus is God.
__________________

Practice what you preach much..?
 

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Anywayzz... Dawg I know it was overkill, and yet that is the point... That there are just so many prophecies and many more connected to the crucifixion story alone, like Psalms 22. The bible mixed with faith validates itself from a believer's view.
 

ChristopherHall

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Apostle13 said:
Practice what you preach much..?

Please quote my entire post. In the very beginning I had said,

"The following is what I believe:"

The texts were therefore not intended to be proof or convincing evidence, rather they were simple me sharing my belief. The reader is perfectly free to disagree or to agree as they so choose. Your post on the other hand is quite different. It reads:

Here are the ones most familiar dealing with the actual crucifixion... Your beloved Nostradamus was never so accurate;

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

If you need the alternative/fulfilled scriptures they are all found within the Gosples... But surely you know the story..?

You use the texts as a "proof" of sorts in a confrontational way. We should share scripture and what we believe...but the power to convert or convince is in leading one to an experience with God not in merely quoting scripture.
 

Apostle13

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ChristopherHall said:
Please quote my entire post. In the very beginning I had said,

"The following is what I believe:"

The texts were therefore not intended to be proof or convincing evidence, rather they were simple me sharing my belief. The reader is perfectly free to disagree or to agree as they so choose. Your post on the other hand is quite different. It reads:



You use the texts as a "proof" of sorts in a confrontational way. We should share scripture and what we believe...but the power to convert or convince is in leading one to an experience with God not in merely quoting scripture.

So what you imply purposely or no is that what scripture I post is unbelievable... You seem to think, and openly, that you are debating a bunch of ignorants here.
Where does the confusion end..?
Babes must first begin with milk and the eat meat when they are older. You cannot force steak down a babe's mouth, they will outright reject it or choke. To begin with scripture is often like trying to feed a newborn T-Bone Steak.
Perhaps you are better suited for children's ministry.
 
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