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Clinging to your Bible!

kal-el

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Apostle13 said:
One who is enlightened, as you are not.

Wow, and you are a minister, aren't you? Do you exersize severe judgment like so on your congregation?


Can tell you that He calls them "Fools" as only He can... The bible says only God knows the heart and that man alone (paraphrasing). Therefore, a man cannot judge another mans heart, only that man and God can know it. There is a divide between what is our actions, and that which is our faith/true beliefs.

O really? Jesus does alot of judging:

John 5:26-27
For as the father has life in himself, so he has granted the son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the son of man.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

And he strictly forbids judging:

Matthew 7:1-2
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measure to you.

A famous preacher tells a story of a particular flight he was on not to long ago where he was seated between an atheist and a muslim. All the while suffering persecution from the atheist... As for the muslim he seemed to speak little or no english. In an instant the flight became turbulent and lightening struck the airliner at which point it began to drastically loose altitude... Just shy of a verticle plummit. In the panic the atheist began to shout "Jesus! Jesus!" The muslim also, "Jesus!!!" "Pray preacher! Pray for us!" From either side.
What does it mean..?
Could it be that the truth was in them all along..?
The plane did recover and landed safely... The atheist and muslim are now Christians.

Nice, poetic story. It fails to prove the existence of your man in the clouds, if that's what you were aiming for.:lol:
 

MrFungus420

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Apostle13 said:
First off they are not the same God.
Secondly... I cannot say in certainty. Not good though.
The Torah is only the first five books of the old testament while they are relevant they are not complete in defining Christianity.

I wasn't trying to say that they are the same god. As a matter of fact, the premise I was putting forth was that they aren't. You seemed to be trying to say that those who don't believe in the god of the Bible are fools. I was trying to point out that those who believe other religions are likely to feel the same way about those who don't follow their faith as you do about those who don't follow yours.

Apostle13 said:
You choose to question its validity... Not I. Reason as you will... Do what you will.
...As for me I am only sharing... So spare me your Prove its/Liar arguments.

You were using the Bible to try to make your point. I was just pointing out that your beliefs are no more valid than anyone elses.

You think that calling those who don't follow your beliefs foolish is only sharing? It sounds a lot more like judging to me.

I wasn't asking you to prove anything, and in no way did I call you a liar. I merely stated the fact that your religious beliefs are no more valid than anyone else's religious beliefs.

Apostle13 said:
Yes... One man's trash is another man's treasure.

I'm at a loss on this. How does this make any sense as a reply to pointing out that trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning?

Apostle13 said:
It is relevant to the discussion of post #14

Then why didn't you say it in a reply to that post instead of another one?

Apostle13 said:
You say to whom they pray... As do I... In the end we shall know.

No, I didn't say to whom people would pray. I said that you saying that atheists will be praying when they die is absurd, as absurd as if I were to claim that everyone will pray to Odin when they die, even Christians.

The actual question was why you would think that people would pray to something in which they have no belief.
 

Apostle13

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kal-el said:
Wow, and you are a minister, aren't you? Do you exersize severe judgment like so on your congregation?
Discernment is a Spiritual gift and is a necessary tool for a pastor or saint... It would be apparent to either of them you are not enlightened which is only a reference to being born again.
John 14:15-17 Jesus speaking:
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you"
This is The Holy Spirit that resides in the heart of the true believer.
O really? Jesus does alot of judging:
As well, He should... Jesus is in God. God is The Father. The Holy Spirit/Comforter/Spirit of Truth is The Spirit of God. They are three and yet one. Thus, Trinity= Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
John 14:18-21 Jesus again:
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
"That day" was Pentecost... As described in Acts chapter 2.
And he strictly forbids judging:
...And because of your not being enlightened you fail to see/understand Jesus is speaking of, but not only, mainly judging among the brethren/believers, but in its full context, the dangers of self-righteousness. Hence, hypocrisy.
Nice, poetic story. It fails to prove the existence of your man in the clouds, if that's what you were aiming for.:lol:
I'm not up to, neither am trying to prove nothing on this thread... Just Clinging to my bible... All the while knowing it and understanding it.
 

Apostle13

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MrFungus420 said:
I wasn't trying to say that they are the same god. As a matter of fact, the premise I was putting forth was that they aren't.
Yes... Sorry, I did see that after I posted... My bad. Same God though as far as The Father... Orthodox Jews reject Jesus as the Son/Messiah... I know you know that, just clarifying for them that don't.
You seemed to be trying to say that those who don't believe in the god of the Bible are fools.
No... I was pointing out that it is not my call... At the same time showing scripturally why it is God's right and reasons.
I was trying to point out that those who believe other religions are likely to feel the same way about those who don't follow their faith as you do about those who don't follow yours.
Good point.
You were using the Bible to try to make your point. I was just pointing out that your beliefs are no more valid than anyone Else's.
If they are my beliefs, even as they are my knowing, then they are valid more to me then anyone Else's. I respect their/your right to believe as they/you so choose... On the flip... If my belief becomes my knowing and I truly share the heart of God as the bible does teach us as believers do: "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith"... 1 Timothy chapter 2
I wasn't asking you to prove anything, and in no way did I call you a liar.
I was referencing a past thread/initial debate with you.
I'm at a loss on this. How does this make any sense as a reply to pointing out that trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible is circular reasoning?
We are at odds because I have established thru faith the bible is true... Therefore, needs not proven... It is God in His word. Given freely to me and I treasure it, as do many.
...Yet it is rejected by far more then many.
Then why didn't you say it in a reply to that post instead of another one?
Sorry if I confused you... Probably should have.
No, I didn't say to whom people would pray. I said that you saying that atheists will be praying when they die is absurd, as absurd as if I were to claim that everyone will pray to Odin when they die, even Christians.The actual question was why you would think that people would pray to something in which they have no belief.
...And I am saying the truth is somewhere within them whether they suppress it, reject it, or flat out deny it... It is there nonetheless.
 
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The Real McCoy said:
No, because not every nation where the population exploded had a murderous regime in charge.

And nine out of ten of those murderous regimes were atheistic not religious.

The Real McCoy said:
No, your point does not still stand. As I said before, these mass killings occured during the twentieth century when the world population was in the billions as opposed to the killings the church was responsible for when the world population was much, much lower.

Death toll is still far greater among atheist regimes in far less time.
 

kal-el

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Apostle13 said:
Discernment is a Spiritual gift and is a necessary tool for a pastor or saint... It would be apparent to either of them you are not enlightened which is only a reference to being born again.
John 14:15-17 Jesus speaking:
"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you"
This is The Holy Spirit that resides in the heart of the true believer.

As well, He should... Jesus is in God. God is The Father. The Holy Spirit/Comforter/Spirit of Truth is The Spirit of God. They are three and yet one. Thus, Trinity= Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
John 14:18-21 Jesus again:
I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
"That day" was Pentecost... As described in Acts chapter 2.
...And because of your not being enlightened you fail to see/understand Jesus is speaking of, but not only, mainly judging among the brethren/believers, but in its full context, the dangers of self-righteousness. Hence, hypocrisy.
I'm not up to, neither am trying to prove nothing on this thread... Just Clinging to my bible... All the while knowing it and understanding it.

Apostle, being somewhat familiar with the bible, I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus's purpose while on earth, was not judgement, but salvation. And you said Jesus should judge, well the carpenter himslef disagrees with you here:

John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."

John 8:15
You judge by human standards, I pass judgement on no one.
 
T

The Real McCoy

ChristopherHall said:
And nine out of ten of those murderous regimes were atheistic not religious.

9 out of 10?


ChristopherHall said:
Death toll is still far greater among atheist regimes in far less time.

The raw numbers are meaningless. I'd be interested to see a comparison of mass slaughter vs. total population. Another factor to consider is the weapons technology available during the twentieth century.
 

ChristopherHall

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The Real McCoy said:
9 out of 10?




The raw numbers are meaningless. I'd be interested to see a comparison of mass slaughter vs. total population. Another factor to consider is the weapons technology available during the twentieth century.

That would be an interesting study.
 

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kal-el said:
Wow, and you are a minister, aren't you? Do you exersize severe judgment like so on your congregation?




O really? Jesus does alot of judging:





And he strictly forbids judging:





Nice, poetic story. It fails to prove the existence of your man in the clouds, if that's what you were aiming for.:lol:
For someone who reads the Bible, you really don't contemplate it. Jesus is God!
 

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ChristopherHall said:
The sad truth is that most have had so many smaller doses of "Christian religion" they have become inoculated from the real thing.


Out of curiousity.....who decides what is "The Real Thing"?
 

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tecoyah said:
Out of curiousity.....who decides what is "The Real Thing"?
God decides what the real thing is. It's not our religion, it's not our Bible, it's not our laws, it's God's laws, it's God's Bible. We don't make the rules.
 

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Upstart said:
God decides what the real thing is. It's not our religion, it's not our Bible, it's not our laws, it's God's laws, it's God's Bible. We don't make the rules.
Well then, who put it to paper? Who made the decisions what to include and what not? Why are the same stories/laws interpreted different ways by different religions?
 

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Upstart said:
For someone who reads the Bible, you really don't contemplate it. Jesus is God!

Ha, you're just upset because your holy book is full of errors, misconceptions, intolerance, violence, and barbarity. I see now, only one that comes to the same conclusion as a theist is contemplating the bible correctly? Is that right?
 

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Upstart said:
God decides what the real thing is. It's not our religion, it's not our Bible, it's not our laws, it's God's laws, it's God's Bible. We don't make the rules.

So....uh.....which one is your God? There are an awful lot of them out there....I need to know which one is the actual "God" god, not the ...uh...fake God. You see my point? It all comes down to opinion, and perception based on human imagination. I can Guarantee you the God in my Mind, is not the one in yours, nor is it the one in His or Hers...Yet we all think ours is the right one....now dont we. Thus we use a book to weed out the less likely candidates....but waut....which book? Well I prefer the Old testament version, primarily because that God didnt mess around....he was extremely...well...Godlike. I have a friend down the street who likes the God in his Qu'ran, and my brother looks to the God in the watchtower....and guess what, each thinks his is the "Right" God.
Dont you find it somewhat pretensious to claim we are all wrong...because you are right, isnt there ...perhaps....something silly in claiming to Know what God thinks, or that he wrote a book? Which version of the Christian Bibles is actually written by God....and how do you know? What of the other books, or the deleted sections? Why did God send Mohammad, or Buddah, and not just let his son have center stage?

There are so many questions centering on these books as to make them irrelevant in a true search for spirituality in my mind....more a hinderance to actually growing. While I find the messages in all I have read (which is relatively extensive) to be thought provocing, and often insightful....I do not consider any of them to be the words of a god.


And for this...I am sure to go to Hell....I already know, so dont bother saying it.
 

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Upstart said:
it's God's laws, it's God's Bible. We don't make the rules.

Haha, last time I checked, we don't murder people who work on the sabbath, and if the bible is god's book, why call him god then, when he is sketched as such a murderous, moronic, egotistical diety. And that's nice, "we don't make the rules"- try preaching that to George Bush.
 

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kal-el said:
Ha, you're just upset because your holy book is full of errors, misconceptions, intolerance, violence, and barbarity. I see now, only one that comes to the same conclusion as a theist is contemplating the bible correctly? Is that right?
You just can't accept the Bible because you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to.
 

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Upstart said:
You just can't accept the Bible because you wouldn't be able to live your life the way you want to.

What? So you're admiting not in so many words that by accepting the bible as god's word will place restrictions on your life. Why should any human be restricted when we have unlimited potential?
 

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ngdawg said:
Well then, who put it to paper? Who made the decisions what to include and what not? Why are the same stories/laws interpreted different ways by different religions?
God is the one who decides what is in the Bible, God makes the laws.
Other religions,such as Islam, was made by a man. Not Christianity. We don't decide what we want in the Bible and what we want to be the law. Muhammed(I don't know how to spell it) was a very immoral man. He married a 9 year old girl. He made a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with him and enslave whoever they want.
 

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kal-el said:
What? So you're admiting not in so many words that by accepting the bible as god's word will place restrictions on your life. Why should any human be restricted when we have unlimited potential?

Because if you want to live however you want, you will pay for your sin.

Christians are not perfect. We are not sinless. But we have realized that stuff like stealing and fornication is sin, and that we cannot hope to redeme ourselves, and that Christ, the Son of God, paid for our sins. We trust in Christ, not ourselves. We still sin, but we try not to.
 

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Upstart said:
God is the one who decides what is in the Bible, God makes the laws.
Other religions,such as Islam, was made by a man. Not Christianity. We don't decide what we want in the Bible and what we want to be the law. Muhammed(I don't know how to spell it) was a very immoral man. He married a 9 year old girl. He made a religion of hate that seeks to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with him and enslave whoever they want.
Nice avoidance....I asked: who put it to paper? Why are other religions made by man and yours isn't? After all, there were no Christians during Christ's time, which would make Christianity just as much man-made as any other. But since we all know that Jews were God's chosen people, Judaism MUST be Godmade, not manmade.
Nice slam against any other religion but your own, which brings us to the questions asked so many times but not one proclaimed Christian has been able to answer directly: What makes YOUR 'God' the true 'God'? And don't
use the copout 'because the bible says so'...
 

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ngdawg said:
Nice avoidance....I asked: who put it to paper? Why are other religions made by man and yours isn't? After all, there were no Christians during Christ's time, which would make Christianity just as much man-made as any other. But since we all know that Jews were God's chosen people, Judaism MUST be Godmade, not manmade.
Nice slam against any other religion but your own, which brings us to the questions asked so many times but not one proclaimed Christian has been able to answer directly: What makes YOUR 'God' the true 'God'? And don't
use the copout 'because the bible says so'...
God had men write it down.
As for Judaism, it is not true. The reason they reject Christ is because they interpreted the Old Testament as that the Savior would bring them from the rule of Rome. They expected that when the Bible said that Christ would establish a new kingdom, that it would be on earth. That was not the purpose of the first comming of Christ. It was to free them not from Rome, but from payment of their sins.
I'll get back to you on the "What makes your God so real" issue. I've a really good book on that subject, and I'll be reading up on that.
 

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Again, avoidance as I said nothing about their rejection or anything. I said Jews were called the chosen ones, God's people. And if they were, then that would make your claim of all other religions being manmade false. In fact, Christianity is entirely man-made as it began in earnest after the death of Christ. We know factions are manmade, ie; Catholicism, Baptist, Protestant, etc., but only Judaism follows only the word of God, not someone proclaiming to be his disciple, son or prophet.
 

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ngdawg said:
Again, avoidance as I said nothing about their rejection or anything. I said Jews were called the chosen ones, God's people. And if they were, then that would make your claim of all other religions being manmade false. In fact, Christianity is entirely man-made as it began in earnest after the death of Christ. We know factions are manmade, ie; Catholicism, Baptist, Protestant, etc., but only Judaism follows only the word of God, not someone proclaiming to be his disciple, son or prophet.
Then what do you think Jesus was?
 

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Upstart said:
Then what do you think Jesus was?
A Jewish rabbi proclaiming himself the son of God, of course. Don't you read the Bible? :mrgreen:
 

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ngdawg said:
A Jewish rabbi proclaiming himself the son of God, of course. Don't you read the Bible? :mrgreen:
So, do you think He was God, insane, or a liar?
 
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