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Clinging to your Bible!

Mr. D

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Clinging to your Bible

The Bible has no purpose or validity unless you choose to believe in FAITH that God guided the hand of man to write it. If you can accept that unsubstantiated silly myth, then you are the type of psychologically needy person that would have accepted Islam and the Koran as the one true religion if you were born in Iraq. You would have believed whatever religion was an accident of where and when you were born. Psychologically, you need to have an explanation of creation and what will happen to you after your death. You cannot face life without answers whether they are real or mythical. There are some us who can face life with a set of morals and ethics to live by that do not require answers to questions that cannot be answered. We choose not to allow the fear of what may, or may not come after death turn us towards ancient superstitions and mythical stories in modern kinder and gentler wrappings! Organized religon MUST demand acceptence in FAITH! FAITH is required because without unthinking FAITH or real questioning or application of logic we will see the sillyness of the ranting of the Wizard of OZ hidding behind the curtain.

There may be a God, but I doubt he's the petty, small, punishing, judgmental, worship needing tyrant invented by man from his own picture of a medieval father and King! What all powerful God would be so small as to demand worship! Only man is that small, insecure and petty!

What if the Bible, or Koran, etc. are not written by the hand of God? It would explain the stories that defy all common sense and logic and the mountains of inconsistencies. It would explain the difference in humanism seen in the New Testament as compared to the Old Testament since it was what was going on at the time it was written. The Old Testament Fire and Brimstone of vindictive punishment just was selling so well anymore, just like in advertising and politics a new approach was needed.

At least think about it before you get defensive!
 
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Mr. D

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i believe in tranquility said:
whats your point man...
Operating on blind faith in a religion rather than using reason causes a lot of pain in the world. It's a recurring pattern since the beginning of history. To fight over resources when starving is one thing, but to fight over whose religion is right is below the level of animals in stupidity. Yet we exhalt it generation after generation using the Bible or Koran as an excuse. That's my point man!
 
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kal-el

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Mr. D said:
Operating on blind faith in a religion rather than using reason causes a lot of pain in the world. It's a recurring pattern since the beginning of history. To fight over resources when starving is one thing, but to fight over whose religion is right is below the level of animals in stupidity. Yet we exhalt it generation after generation using the Bible or Koran as an excuse. That's my point man!
Yes, and the fact that most Christians try and use things (i.e. Intelligent design) to support their beliefs, that shows that faith is not enough to believe.
 

ChristopherHall

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The sad truth is that most have had so many smaller doses of "Christian religion" they have become inoculated from the real thing.
 

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Humans have built civilization, created language, have harnessed electricity etc. I believe that people seek religion because they can't believe all this life and intelligence is going to end like any other animal. Also, Christianity gurantees that good people live in a paradise and bad people burn in hell forever. The idea of a better place, of afterlife, confirms that we will see loved ones again.
 

ChristopherHall

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liberal1 said:
Humans have built civilization, created language, have harnessed electricity etc. I believe that people seek religion because they can't believe all this life and intelligence is going to end like any other animal. Also, Christianity gurantees that good people live in a paradise and bad people burn in hell forever. The idea of a better place, of afterlife, confirms that we will see loved ones again.
That's a very simplistic position. Here's something I've previously posted on this very notion:

"I was a young man when I came to faith in God. I remember going to church just to get my mother off my back. I didn't want anything to do with church. One night I went to church to get my mom to shut up. I remember it like it was yesterday. I was wearing my Metalica T-Shirt, my blue jeans, and just had my hair in a poney tail. I wouldn't dress up because I wanted to be a jerk. I made fun of most of it and did a lot of eye rolling. But the preacher seemed sincere enough. He believed what he was preaching. That's when Scott, a neighbor of ours, asked if I wanted to pray. So I decided to just give this prayer thing a shot. I walked up front and began to "pray". Basically I just muttered something like, "God, if you're there, I'm here. Do something if you're real." My friend Scott had his hand on my back and was praying for me. Then something strange happened, I felt tingly, and as I prayed my tongue began to get thick. At first I was a bit scared, as I tried to speak my words didn't make sense. But somehow I knew what they meant. The best way to describe it was like when a parent hears a baby cry. The baby's cry may not make any "sense" but the parent often can tell if it is a "tired cry", "hungry cry", or "hurting cry". I could "feel" what I was saying as opposed to actually "understanding" with my "mind". My words came with emotion and vivid images of my past (sins, hurts, fears, etc) began to fill my mind. As I prayed it was like everything around me vanished and I was alone with God speaking in a tongue that only he and I understood. I opened up more than I had ever opened up before. It was like God was personally taking my past and washing it away. God was sharing my fears, hurts, and pain. It seemed like an eternity. I began to "come to" after 40 minutes of weeping and speaking in tongues. I had "received the Holy Ghost". I felt as light as air. The desire for drugs, stealing, and partying was gone. I just wanted to know more about Jesus. That night I was water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of my sins. It was wonderful. I still cry when I think about it. I got back in school and actually got heavily involved in JROTC. I began to do very well in school. I felt "driven", something I had never felt before. My teachers and immediate family were amazed and even to this day never cease to tell people about the kind of person I used to be. Instead of dropping out I graduated with my class and was even asked to give the invocation at our graduation.

It changed my life. I married my highschool sweetheart, I served for 8 years in the Army as a 91b10 (Combat Medical Specialist), I have worked with the handicapped, as a computer systems support technician, and presently I work for the city in Code Enforcement. My wife and I have been happily married for 8 years and we are expecting our first child in July. I've felt the call of God on my life and currently I'm taking Bible College classes to get my minister's license.

Receiving the Holy Ghost was the best thing that ever happened to me.

I know mystical experiences abound and many "experts" have their doubts and attribute these experiences to psychological episodes...and they may be right. I'm certainly not qualified to address their science or to contradict them. All I know is that it was either really God or a real psychologic episode. Whatever it was, it was real and I have been blessed by it and I am eternally thankful for it.

I didn't become religious because of any fear of death, death is just a fact of life. Also my religion's answers have been more of an amusing study for me than a solution to any feverous searching for answers regarding the unknown. What my faith did for me is beyond words. I found love. The Bible says God is love,

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

I believe God is a personal being, but even if God isn't a personal being, I found love...and by finding love I have found God. I found a love for life, a love for my family, a love for learning, a love for working, a love for serving, and a love for my fellow man. I wasn't looking for something to ease any fear of death or something to answer haunting questions. I was looking for love. And friend...I found love...and in doing so...I found God.

You sound like a very analytical person. That's probably why you thought I was looking for "answers" to life's questions in myth. Most likely you spent your life looking for answers. You probably even tried finding answers in religion. I'll even bet that you were let down by what you found in religion. But "answers" isn't what religion or faith is about. Religion and faith is about love. A love for God and a love for your fellow man. Jesus said,

"37And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. 39And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets." - Matthew 22:36-40 (English Standard Version)

Love of God and your fellow man is the essence of true faith and religion.

You mentioned that you have a set of ethics and morals by which you live without the need of answers to questions that cannot be answered. I agree. When I came to faith in Jesus I certainly didn't know much about my faith's "answers", nor was I focused or consumed by wanting to know them. I just wanted Jesus. I wanted to know him and his love because the love I felt for him was greater than anything I had ever felt. As I began to understand more about Jesus I began to see people differently. I began to see people as priceless and precious. They were people that Jesus was willing to die for. How could I not love my neighbor? My neighbor became more than just another person in my way in the grocery store. Sometimes I watch people and I look into their eyes. They are people with hopes, dreams, ambitions, talents, faults, successess, failures, quirks, and funny ways all of their own. They are people with their own fears, guilt, and shame. And I have learned to love them for who they are. I see them as fellow travelers along this road of life. My hearts desire is that when I see someone who is lonely, someone who is hurting, someone who is afraid that I can love them and share my Jesus with them. You don't have to believe he's real if you don't want to. But I've seen his results. I've seen kids saved from drugs and marriages put back together. All through the power of the love of Jesus. I've seen the power of God's love first hand in my own life and the lives of others.

One cannot capture "love" and put it in a test tube. One cannot prove that "love" exists. One cannot show us the texture, weight, or color of "love". Love is something that one can only experience for themselves, yet we know it exists.

Brother...God is love...and love is very real."
- Christopher Hall
 

Mr. D

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ChristopherHall,

I'm glad religion has brought you peace, but as all who support organized religion you select what you need to see as positive and ignore the monumental pain and suffering throughout human history due to accepting ideas on FAITH. You select what you need to support your belief just as those who say, "Praise the Lord" when a prayer is answered, and then say, "We cannot understand God's workings, God's will!", when prayers are unanswered and unspeakable pain and suffering is put on the innocent! Blind faith is a heads I win, tails you lose game! Whatever happens always fits into believing in blind faith. A god of blind faith always gets credit whichever way it comes out. In the current American coal mine dissaster God was praised for answering prayers when the report was 12 out of 13 survived. When it turned out that only 1 out of 13 survived it was God's will not be be understood! With that kind of simplistic, blind, unquestioning faith in a god, you can believe in any and every god, and man does!

Have peace in your faith, but don't let your faith hurt others who don't share it. That's the problem!
 
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Upstart

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Can you give us an example of Christianity hurting civilization instead of just your poorly stated opions and confusing logic?
 

ChristopherHall

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I will never deny that organized religion has often been used by extremists to manipulate and control, wage war, and exploit. However, if you study the subject thoroughly you will discover that atheistic regimes holding to fascism and communism have murderered far more people in far less time to secure their power. For example the highest estimates of those killed by Christianity (namely Catholicism) in various inquisitions in various parts of the world throughout a 1,260 year is rougly 85 million people. Communist Russia murdered 20 million, China 65 million, Vietnam estimated 1 million, North Korea 2 million, Cambodia 2 million, Eastern Europe 1 million, Latin America 150,000, Africa 1.7 million deaths, and the list could go on and on like this. These numbers are based on the 20th century alone. While yes there has been abuse and bloodshed performed by the Church...the actual cost in human lives pales in comparison to the death toll from atheistic regimes.
 

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Catholics are not Christians. Christians were the primary targets of the Catholic Inquisitions.
 

ChristopherHall

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Upstart said:
Catholics are not Christians. Christians were the primary targets of the Catholic Inquisitions.
That's another subject.
 

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ChristopherHall said:
That's another subject.
Indeed. As a matter of fact, the Catholics were the ones who destroyed the copies of the Bible that the common people could read. They also had the rule that you had to accept the popes oppion of what the Bible says. When they read the Bible to the public, they did so in Latin, which the people could not understand.

Just thought that had to do with clinging to the Bible.
 

kal-el

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Originally posted by Mr. D
God was praised for answering prayers when the report was 12 out of 13 survived. When it turned out that only 1 out of 13 survived it was God's will not be be understood!
Yes, that was good news in the report that 12 of 13 survived, but the bad news is 1 died. Why would a loving god punish 1 person, but gets the credit for the survival of 12? And as it turned out, 12 died, I'm pretty sure all 12 of them were praying to Jesus/God. He's supposed to answer prayers. He promises rewards in prayer 4 times in the bible. Did god intervene to save the life of just 1 miner? He surely has the power to. Or was it a coincidence that 1 survived?
 

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Of course it was not God's will that those men died. It was not God's will that Eve took the fruit, but He let it happen. Because there is sin in the world, people suffer. God wasn't necessarily punishing those men. That's just the way it works.
 

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Upstart said:
It was not God's will that Eve took the fruit, but He let it happen.
Then he isn't omniscient, or omnipotent. He would know that Eve was going to eat the fruit, and has the power to stop it from happening, but doesn't, so he's either not omnibenevolent, or else doesn't exist.:lol:


Because there is sin in the world, people suffer.
You can thank your sky genie for sin.:lol:

God wasn't necessarily punishing those men. That's just the way it works.
That's just the way it works??? Are you serious? He already knows beforehand if people are going to die, and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it from happening:

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in comformity with the purpose of his will.
2 Timothy1:9
God has saved us and called us to holy life- not because of anything we have done, but because of his own purpose and grace.
 

Apostle13

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Upstart said:
Of course it was not God's will that those men died. It was not God's will that Eve took the fruit, but He let it happen. Because there is sin in the world, people suffer. God wasn't necessarily punishing those men. That's just the way it works.
If one is intent on derationalizing faith... It is easily done. Yet, the bible does tell us that it is only a fool says in his heart there is no God... Elsewhere it says, that it is God that puts eternity in the hearts of men. That is not to say some men, it speaks to all.
What then of them that choose not to believe in the God of the bible..?
Through Adam sin entered in this world... Through Abraham the promise... Through Moses the law... Through Jesus the fulfillment thereof.
Only a fool can't see it... Because a fool simply won't by means of selfish denial. Their deeds are dark and they prefer the dark over the light.
Hey, guess what... People die. Some young. Some old. Some good. Others bad. Some noble. Some ignoble. Elvis died on the toilet yet even then he was known as The King.
When I die, lest it be sudden, I will die praying, as will any atheist on this board. Deny it or not.
 

kal-el

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Speaking of "fools", Jesus says in Matthew 5:22, that anyone who says "you fool!" will be in danger of hell, but he, himself indulges in it:

Luke 11:40
"You foolish people!"
Luke 24:25
He said to them, "How foolish you are,"
Even the sky cadet himself is guilty of hypocracy:

Luke 12:20
But god said to him, "You fool!"
Originally posted by Apostle 13
I will die praying, as will any atheist on this board. Deny it or not.
Pray to whom, exactly? Not Jesus, as he promises rewards, lies about it. Not god, he says there's some people that you shouldn't prey for, and if you do, he won't listen.
 

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kal-el said:
Speaking of "fools", Jesus says in Matthew 5:22, that anyone who says "you fool!" will be in danger of hell, but he, himself indulges in it:
Even the sky cadet himself is guilty of hypocracy:
Pray to whom, exactly? Not Jesus, as he promises rewards, lies about it. Not god, he says there's some people that you shouldn't prey for, and if you do, he won't listen.
One who is enlightened, as you are not. Can tell you that He calls them "Fools" as only He can... The bible says only God knows the heart and that man alone (paraphrasing). Therefore, a man cannot judge another mans heart, only that man and God can know it. There is a divide between what is our actions, and that which is our faith/true beliefs.
A famous preacher tells a story of a particular flight he was on not to long ago where he was seated between an atheist and a muslim. All the while suffering persecution from the atheist... As for the muslim he seemed to speak little or no english. In an instant the flight became turbulent and lightening struck the airliner at which point it began to drastically loose altitude... Just shy of a verticle plummit. In the panic the atheist began to shout "Jesus! Jesus!" The muslim also, "Jesus!!!" "Pray preacher! Pray for us!" From either side.
What does it mean..?
Could it be that the truth was in them all along..?
The plane did recover and landed safely... The atheist and muslim are now Christians.
 

MrFungus420

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Apostle13 said:
If one is intent on derationalizing faith... It is easily done. Yet, the bible does tell us that it is only a fool says in his heart there is no God... Elsewhere it says, that it is God that puts eternity in the hearts of men. That is not to say some men, it speaks to all.
What then of them that choose not to believe in the God of the bible..?
What of those who choose not to believe in the god of the Torah? Or the god of the Koran?

The only reason that you think that the Bible has validity is that you believe in it. The basis for your beliefs are no more valid then those of every other person who believes in any religion.

Apostle13 said:
Through Adam sin entered in this world... Through Abraham the promise... Through Moses the law... Through Jesus the fulfillment thereof.
Only a fool can't see it... Because a fool simply won't by means of selfish denial. Their deeds are dark and they prefer the dark over the light.
Again, trying to use the Bible to validate the Bible. I would think that it would be obvious, even to you, that doing so is a circular argument.

Apostle13 said:
Hey, guess what... People die. Some young. Some old. Some good. Others bad. Some noble. Some ignoble. Elvis died on the toilet yet even then he was known as The King.
Wow, you actually managed to say something accurate, even if it is totally irrelevent...

Apostle13 said:
When I die, lest it be sudden, I will die praying, as will any atheist on this board. Deny it or not.
Why would you think that someone would pray to something in which they have no belief? That would be about like me saying that everyone is going to pray to Odin when they die, even Christians. It is an absurd statement on the face of it.
 
T

The Real McCoy

ChristopherHall said:
I will never deny that organized religion has often been used by extremists to manipulate and control, wage war, and exploit. However, if you study the subject thoroughly you will discover that atheistic regimes holding to fascism and communism have murderered far more people in far less time to secure their power. For example the highest estimates of those killed by Christianity (namely Catholicism) in various inquisitions in various parts of the world throughout a 1,260 year is rougly 85 million people. Communist Russia murdered 20 million, China 65 million, Vietnam estimated 1 million, North Korea 2 million, Cambodia 2 million, Eastern Europe 1 million, Latin America 150,000, Africa 1.7 million deaths, and the list could go on and on like this. These numbers are based on the 20th century alone. While yes there has been abuse and bloodshed performed by the Church...the actual cost in human lives pales in comparison to the death toll from atheistic regimes.
An explosion in the global population occured, beginning sometime around the 19th century. Naturally, as the number of humans grew, the raw number of people slaughtered in mass killings increased exponentially.
 

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MrFungus420 said:
What of those who choose not to believe in the god of the Torah? Or the god of the Koran?
First off they are not the same God.
Secondly... I cannot say in certainty. Not good though.
The Torah is only the first five books of the old testament while they are relevant they are not complete in defining Christianity.
The only reason that you think that the Bible has validity is that you believe in it. The basis for your beliefs are no more valid then those of every other person who believes in any religion.
You choose to question its validity... Not I. Reason as you will... Do what you will.
...As for me I am only sharing... So spare me your Prove its/Liar arguments.
Again, trying to use the Bible to validate the Bible. I would think that it would be obvious, even to you, that doing so is a circular argument.
Yes... One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Wow, you actually managed to say something accurate, even if it is totally irrelevent...
It is relevant to the discussion of post #14
Why would you think that someone would pray to something in which they have no belief? That would be about like me saying that everyone is going to pray to Odin when they die, even Christians. It is an absurd statement on the face of it.
You say to whom they pray... As do I... In the end we shall know.
 

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The Real McCoy said:
An explosion in the global population occured, beginning sometime around the 19th century. Naturally, as the number of humans grew, the raw number of people slaughtered in mass killings increased exponentially.
If that were true we would see this trend across the board in every nation where the population exploded. The reality you're denying, or perhaps not considering, is that these numbers of mass murder are concentrated in communist nations run by atheistic regimes. Those murdered were murdered specifically because they opposed the atheistic regime for one reason or another. The point still stands, while theocracy definately has it's bloody history, nothing come close to the bloodshed performed at the hands of atheist communism.
 
T

The Real McCoy

ChristopherHall said:
If that were true we would see this trend across the board in every nation where the population exploded.
No, because not every nation where the population exploded had a murderous regime in charge.


ChristopherHall said:
The reality you're denying, or perhaps not considering, is that these numbers of mass murder are concentrated in communist nations run by atheistic regimes.
I do not deny this fact.


ChristopherHall said:
Those murdered were murdered specifically because they opposed the atheistic regime for one reason or another.
Yes. Well, in most cases. I heard Pol Pot had anyone killed if they wore glasses or appeared intelligent in any way.


ChristopherHall said:
The point still stands, while theocracy definately has it's bloody history, nothing come close to the bloodshed performed at the hands of atheist communism.

No, your point does not still stand. As I said before, these mass killings occured during the twentieth century when the world population was in the billions as opposed to the killings the church was responsible for when the world population was much, much lower.

Also, Church killings should not be compared to the mass slaughter at the hands of mad-men and used as a comparison between Christians and Atheists (btw... I am not an atheist nor am I an agnostic, I believe very much in God) just because those leaders happend to be Atheists.
 

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By "Church killings" I asume you refer to the Inquisition. Once again, this was done by the Catholic church and this is not Christianity. Catholicism is the result of mixing paganism with Christianity. While they believe in Jesus, they worship Mary.
I am a Christian. I do not pray to Mary. She is dead. She cannot hear me. Even if she could, there is nothing she could do. Jesus paid for my sins.
 
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