• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Cleric's militia braces, lowers its profile

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,463
Reaction score
7,253
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Source:Charlotte Observer | 01/14/2007 | Cleric's militia braces, lowers its profile
Source said:
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Mahdi Army militia members have stopped wearing their black uniforms, hidden their weapons and abandoned their checkpoints in an apparent effort to lower their profile in Baghdad in advance of the arrival of U.S. reinforcements.

"We have explicit directions to keep a low profile ... not to confront, not to be dragged into a fight and to calm things down," said one official who received the orders from the anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

/snip/

Militia members say al-Sadr ordered them to stand down shortly after President Bush's announcement that the U.S. would send 17,500 more American troops to Baghdad to work alongside the Iraqi security forces.


The decision by al-Sadr to lower his force's profile in Baghdad will likely cut violence in the city and allow American forces to show quick results from their beefed up presence.


But it is also unlikely in the long term to change the balance of power here. Mahdi Army militiamen say that while they remain undercover now, they are simply waiting for the security plan to end.

..................................

I added emphasis on the last sentence that I quoted from the article. This demonstrates the type of thinking that (probably) goes through many minds of the Iraqi people in general, as well as the minds of those who are die hard about this war, stating that if we leave now, things will fall apart. It could be indicated by the Mahdi army's plan to wait until the buildup subsides, that there is a good indication there will NEVER be a time where we can leave and things will be running smoothly.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion on the people of Iraq. I hope I am wrong, but by all indications over the last 4 years, I would say I am more close to being accurate that not.

Any comments?
 
Source:Charlotte Observer | 01/14/2007 | Cleric's militia braces, lowers its profile


I added emphasis on the last sentence that I quoted from the article. This demonstrates the type of thinking that (probably) goes through many minds of the Iraqi people in general, as well as the minds of those who are die hard about this war, stating that if we leave now, things will fall apart. It could be indicated by the Mahdi army's plan to wait until the buildup subsides, that there is a good indication there will NEVER be a time where we can leave and things will be running smoothly.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion on the people of Iraq. I hope I am wrong, but by all indications over the last 4 years, I would say I am more close to being accurate that not.

Any comments?



It all depends of if the added troops will have their hands tied or not.
like before ....Will they be able to go after Cleric's if so I'm sure the peace wont last for long.
 
It all depends of if the added troops will have their hands tied or not.
like before ....Will they be able to go after Cleric's if so I'm sure the peace wont last for long.

I don't think we have plans to "Go after" the Mahdi Army....

Same Source said:
"We're not necessarily going after the militias if the militias don't come after us," said Army Lt. Col. Scott Bleichwehl, a military spokesman for the Multi-National Division-Baghdad. "Our mission is not to take down the militias, that's a function of the government."
 
That's fine with me. They might intend to sit quiet for the next few months and then try to ramp things up again, but who's to say that by then their public support will have waned, the Iraqi police will have grown, and they will be forced to take a much diminished role?
 
That's fine with me. They might intend to sit quiet for the next few months and then try to ramp things up again, but who's to say that by then their public support will have waned, the Iraqi police will have grown, and they will be forced to take a much diminished role?

Actually, that is very well possible.
But with the level of Influence that Sadr has, I wouldn't count on it.
Sadr is not only an influential man, he is also quite brilliant.
His army doesn't have to be active for people to still be wooed by his influence. The man, not the militia, has been a huge influence for many years. Hell, he was a big influence during my first deployment there in 2003.
(We actually had a planned mission to take him out, but as usual things didn't work out.... maybe Geraldo got wind of that plan too :roll:).
 
Source:Charlotte Observer | 01/14/2007 | Cleric's militia braces, lowers its profile


I added emphasis on the last sentence that I quoted from the article. This demonstrates the type of thinking that (probably) goes through many minds of the Iraqi people in general, as well as the minds of those who are die hard about this war, stating that if we leave now, things will fall apart. It could be indicated by the Mahdi army's plan to wait until the buildup subsides, that there is a good indication there will NEVER be a time where we can leave and things will be running smoothly.
Of course, this is just my personal opinion on the people of Iraq. I hope I am wrong, but by all indications over the last 4 years, I would say I am more close to being accurate that not.

Any comments?

I agree that there won't be a time when we can leave a peaceful country, but we can't stay there forever. Like you said in your other post below al-Sadr is extremely influential and even if his militia isn't there he can still inspire people and form one.
 
Well any reasonable expectations for an end game has to have those who popularly have power with actual power, with checks and balances. Iraq isn't going to be like the Dubai or Turkey any time soon, and the only reasonable victory we can hope to achieve is developing a point of stalemate between the various forces which have sustainable power and influence in Iraq which ensures the more important of our interests to an acceptable degree.
Machiavelli said something along the lines of the only way to impose your will upon an unwilling populace is to absolutely break it, which will involve killing enough people to compell submission. This is possible theoretically, but it's clearly not something we're willing to do as a people (which is something our enemies also know, and gain a great deal of their power from this knowledge). And thus we cannot expect to ever successfully impose our unabridged will upon the Iraqi people.

So thus what we need to develop is what is referred to strategically as a Nash equilibrium of cooperation based on the indefinate repeating status of the games (strategy talk for competitions over the advancement of self interest) and knowledge of when the other is willing to defect.

The first picture is that of a classic prisoner's dillemma. A prisoner's dillemma is a situation in which the Nash equilibrium is Pareto inferior to another strategic point. The second picture is a demonstration of how pure strategy Nash equilibria are found. If Player 1 chooses to cooperate, then it is in Player 2's best interest to defect, as that carries a benefit of 4, rather than 3, and the same applies for Player 1 if Player 2 chooses to cooperate, and clearly results of either (4,1) or (1,4) are not optimal for at least one of the players. But if Player 1 chooses to defect (which s/he always will, as s/he always does better from defection, thus it strictly dominates cooperation), then it is in Player 2's best interest to defect also, and thus the only result in which both players have behaved strategically is (2,2), or that they both defect.

But this result is Pareto inferior to the result (3,3), in which both cooperate (Pareto inferior means that the result is either worse or the same for all players involved than another potential solution, and worse for at least one player involved), problem being that if any player chooses to cooperate, the other still has incentive to defect, and thus cooperation is strategically impossible.

Except if you take into account that there is more than one game. Now if there are a finite number of games, then cooperation is still strategically impossible, because if I know you have incentive to defect on the last time, then I have incentive to defect on the next to last time to offset that, and thus the other has incentive to defect on the 3rd to last time, and so on and so forth all the way back to the beginning, and considering that both have incentive to defect on the last game, both have incentive to defect every time, and thus cooperation is once again strategically impossible.

But then there are indefinately or infinitely repeating games, which is more relevant to Iraq (because the significant leaders know that, in the end, they're all stuck together geographically, and thus indefinately). Cooperation is possible in indefinately repeating games, depending on the conditions under which either player will either cooperate or defect. For example, if Player 1 is always willing to give Player 2 another chance, regardless of how many times Player 2 defects, then Player 2 will always defect, as there is benefit in defecting, and there is no cost. There is the tit for tat approach, which is that I will start out cooperating, and if you defect, then I will defect until you cooperate while I defect, at which point I will start cooperating again. There is also the Grim Trigger approach, which is I will cooperate until you defect, at which point I will never cooperate again.
And thus the difficulty in finding said Nash equilibrium, because the potential effectiveness of any approach grows as the consequences for defection increase, but then it is also reasonable for the other players to defect, in an attempt to call a bluff, at which point it cannot be a bluff, and thus both sides will have to deal with the opportunity cost of any such testing.

But it's possible, and considering we don't intend on doing what's neccesary to break their will as a nation, we have to find a solution in which the popular will is recognized and adhered to, and thus we need to make it so that those who make the strategic decisions with the power of collective will behind them will be left strategically coming to the courses of action that we prefer, which is finding said Nash equilibrium in which cooperation is strategically possible.

wow... that was pretty deep...
and, surprisingly I think I got most of it......
 
I added emphasis on the last sentence that I quoted from the article. This demonstrates the type of thinking that (probably) goes through many minds of the Iraqi people in general, as well as the minds of those who are die hard about this war, stating that if we leave now, things will fall apart. It could be indicated by the Mahdi army's plan to wait until the buildup subsides, that there is a good indication there will NEVER be a time where we can leave and things will be running smoothly.
Any comments?

This is --exactly-- why any sort of timetable for pulling out is a mistake.

And while the militias might "lie low" that doesnt preclude us and/or the Iraqis from going after them anyway.
 
This is --exactly-- why any sort of timetable for pulling out is a mistake.
There is no timetable now, and yet they are already planning to "wait it out". So, there is no indication that with or without a timetable there would be much difference.

And while the militias might "lie low" that doesnt preclude us and/or the Iraqis from going after them anyway.
Well, as far as the Mahdi. I implore you to re-read post #3.
 
Back
Top Bottom