• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Clashes in Jerusalem after settler guard kills Palestinian

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Clashes in Jerusalem after settler guard kills Palestinian - Yahoo! News UK
Clashes erupted in Jerusalem on Wednesday after a Jewish settlement guard shot dead a Palestinian during a confrontation in a tense neighbourhood in the annexed Arab eastern part of the city.

...

Israeli police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the fighting began when Arab residents of the Silwan neighbourhood threw stones at the car of a security guard for a Jewish settlement.

"A guard responsible for protecting Jewish residents of the neighbourhood opened fire with his pistol after his car was attacked with stones," he said.

Amazing that this guard was released without charge by Israel. :roll:

Oh wait, I said Israel. Never mind, not that amazing.
 

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,080
Reaction score
3,916
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Queue the unconditional defenders of Israel in 3...2...1....
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,228
Reaction score
14,230
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
This is a shameful action. However I would like to see other sources. Was he defending himself? Was the Palestinian hostile? Now, will others recognize the wicked and murderous acts of Hamas and those who vow to destroy Israel? I would say the fact that the soldiers were being attacked merited self defense. They forfeit their lives when they chose to attack soldiers with stones and disturb peace.
 
Last edited:

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
This is a shameful action. However I would like to see other sources.
washingtonpost.com
Jerusalem shooting: Shooting sparks Palestinian-police clashes in Jerusalem - latimes.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/23/world/middleeast/23mideast.html
FOXNews.com - Violence erupts in east Jerusalem after deadly shooting of Palestinian, clouding peace efforts
Was he defending himself? Was the Palestinian hostile?
Read the article? Something most people do before commenting on it...
Now, will others recognize the wicked and murderous acts of Hamas and those who vow to destroy Israel?
What exactly does that have to do with this Israeli settler guard killing a Palestinian? This happened in East Jerusalem, not in Gaza.
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,228
Reaction score
14,230
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I'm calling out hypocrisy. What about the fact that these Palestinians were attacking Israelis and throwing stones at the guard? Is it not also wrong when suicide bombers kill Jewish civilians and are regarded as heros? My point is that here we have a Palestinian acting violently and attacking Israelis. A guard shot him in self defense, and the Palestinian died. It was self defense, and although it's sad, I think it was justified.
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I'm calling out hypocrisy. What about the fact that these Palestinians were attacking Israelis and throwing stones at the guard?
Stone throwing is a common form of protest in many oppressed regions of the world. The guard could have reported the stone throwers to the Israeli police and had them take care of it, but he decided to put the matter in his own hands.
Is it not also wrong when suicide bombers kill Jewish civilians and are regarded as heros?
What does that have to do with this topic? Do you normally just post things that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed?
Israel has honored a lot of its terrorists. What does that have do with this topic here?
My point is that here we have a Palestinian acting violently and attacking Israelis. A guard shot him in self defense, and the Palestinian died. It was self defense, and although it's sad, I think it was justified.
You consider this self-defense? Now I know you haven't even read any of the articles. They were throwing stones at his car first off, so his life was not threatened. Since you probably won't even bother to read the article, this is where the guy's car was hit by stones:

2010-09-22-CopyofPICT0019-thumb.JPG


And this is where the guy died:
2010-09-22-CopyofPICT0047.JPG
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,228
Reaction score
14,230
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Stone throwing is a common form of protest in many oppressed regions of the world. The guard could have reported the stone throwers to the Israeli police and had them take care of it, but he decided to put the matter in his own hands.
It's also a means of execution in many 3rd world countries. Stones can be weapons depending on the speed and size. I do think it was foolish for the guard to do this. But the Palestinian person should not have been protesting violently.
What does that have to do with this topic? Do you normally just post things that have absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed?
Israel has honored a lot of its terrorists. What does that have do with this topic here?
My comment is in response to users claiming that pro-Israeli individuals will defend every action of Israel's. It's hypocrisy to demand for justice here and turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Palestine and Hamas. What it does have to do with is the fact that the protestor was obviously violent and did not have peaceful protest in his mind. He was throwing stones at civilians, and a guard shot him in order to make him stop.
You consider this self-defense? Now I know you haven't even read any of the articles. They were throwing stones at his car first off, so his life was not threatened. Since you probably won't even bother to read the article, this is where the guy's car was hit by stones:

2010-09-22-CopyofPICT0019-thumb.JPG


And this is where the guy died:
2010-09-22-CopyofPICT0047.JPG
Again, they were throwing stones at his car, honestly I don't trust the Huffington Post to be a reputable news outlet as their are very bias towards the left. I have condemned the actions of the guard, but I feel it could have been justified through self defense if the situation merited it (if the guard asked him to stop, if the man threw many stones, etc...) Regardless, where is the justice for murdered Jews by the hands of terrorists? What about the actions of Hamas or of the individual? Was the Palestinian not wrong for throwing stones?
 

Degreez

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,216
Reaction score
1,021
Location
Houston, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
It's also a means of execution in many 3rd world countries. Stones can be weapons depending on the speed and size. I do think it was foolish for the guard to do this. But the Palestinian person should not have been protesting violently.
Paper can be a weapon too, depending on its sharpness and the speed used to slice someone. Live ammunition in response to stones is disproportionate.
My comment is in response to users claiming that pro-Israeli individuals will defend every action of Israel's. It's hypocrisy to demand for justice here and turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Palestine and Hamas.
Who has turned a blind eye to these atrocities? Name one poster. Next, I never made the comment above, so why not quote that person and post your irrelevant concerns to them? What Hamas has done, will do, is doing, etc has no bearing on this topic.
What it does have to do with is the fact that the protestor was obviously violent and did not have peaceful protest in his mind. He was throwing stones at civilians, and a guard shot him in order to make him stop.
First, it's not even known if this guy was near the 'protestors' that were throwing stones. You would know that if you take the time to read the article. Second, how many protests do you hear about at 4 AM? Third, no one was throwing stones at civilians. They through it at this guard's car, who was not a civilian at the time and was armed with live ammunition. The appropriate thing for him to have done was report the incident instead of shooting indiscriminately at a bunch of people. Or do you find that appropriate?

Again, they were throwing stones at his car, honestly I don't trust the Huffington Post to be a reputable news outlet as their are very bias towards the left. I have condemned the actions of the guard, but I feel it could have been justified through self defense if the situation merited it (if the guard asked him to stop, if the man threw many stones, etc...) Regardless, where is the justice for murdered Jews by the hands of terrorists? What about the actions of Hamas or of the individual? Was the Palestinian not wrong for throwing stones?[/QUOTE]
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
It's also a means of execution in many 3rd world countries.

You know, I get tired of people saying that. People being executed by stoning are not given helmets with kevlar or vests with ceramic plates. Some kids throwing stones even at the soldier's body is not a sufficient threat to justify discharging a firearm. Throwing them at a car? Not even close.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,787
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Clashes in Jerusalem after settler guard kills Palestinian - Yahoo! News UK


Amazing that this guard was released without charge by Israel. :roll:

Oh wait, I said Israel. Never mind, not that amazing.

The police has evidence that the guard was acting in self-defense.
He was driving his car in a road in Silwan when many trash bins placed on the road have forced him to stop.
The moment he stopped many Palestinians have went out of the alleys and ambushed his car with rocks, attacking him while he's trapped in his car.
At that point he has had the right to self-defense and to defend his life, and any person armed with a weapon would have done the same thing.
I won't even shed a tear on the dead Palestinian as he was a criminal who was attacking a person that did nothing to him.
 

ido_

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
3,406
Reaction score
1,561
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Just to set things straight, the security guard wasn't released as in no charges will be pressed against him.
He was bailed out and released under constraining conditions. Anyways the only problem with the guy ending up dead is that the shooter wasn't a cop, the Palestinian was no rightous man and would he survive the shooting he should have been charged with assault and attempt of murder.
 

expandmymind

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
229
Reaction score
120
Location
Scotland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The police has evidence that the guard was acting in self-defense.
He was driving his car in a road in Silwan when many trash bins placed on the road have forced him to stop.
The moment he stopped many Palestinians have went out of the alleys and ambushed his car with rocks, attacking him while he's trapped in his car.
At that point he has had the right to self-defense and to defend his life, and any person armed with a weapon would have done the same thing.
I won't even shed a tear on the dead Palestinian as he was a criminal who was attacking a person that did nothing to him.

He is part of an invasion. Therefore, self defence really cannot apply.

On top of that, the use of guns against someone who is protesting or throwing stones is not permitted. Can you imagine if the British Army fired bullets every time protestors threw stones (Bloody Sunday anyone?)? Or even molotov cocktails? Shooting is only permitted when firarms or other heavy weaponry has been produced.

Also, he was in a car! Why not just reverse and run over them? Now that I could get on board with when the man is escaping violence. If someone's stupid enough to stand in front of a moving car [or behind, depending on the direction] then I hate to say it but it's a win for Darwin.
 

ido_

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
3,406
Reaction score
1,561
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
He is part of an invasion. Therefore, self defence really cannot apply.

On top of that, the use of guns against someone who is protesting or throwing stones is not permitted. Can you imagine if the British Army fired bullets every time protestors threw stones (Bloody Sunday anyone?)? Or even molotov cocktails? Shooting is only permitted when firarms or other heavy weaponry has been produced.

Also, he was in a car! Why not just reverse and run over them? Now that I could get on board with when the man is escaping violence. If someone's stupid enough to stand in front of a moving car [or behind, depending on the direction] then I hate to say it but it's a win for Darwin.

Talk is easy, have you ever been assaulted before by an angry mob?
 

expandmymind

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
229
Reaction score
120
Location
Scotland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Talk is easy, have you ever been assaulted before by an angry mob?

Well, yes, but that's besides the point. The relevant question is whether or not I have been trained to deal with that situation.
 

ido_

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
3,406
Reaction score
1,561
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Well, yes, but that's besides the point. The relevant question is whether or not I have been trained to deal with that situation.

you think that a security guard is trained to deal with a mob? they are hardly trained to fire a pistol
 
Last edited:

gunner

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 20, 2007
Messages
6,548
Reaction score
2,875
Location
uk
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
you think that a security guard is trained to deal with a mob? they are hardly trained to fire a pistol

In regards to anything Israel do in terms of security it is far from 'Micky mouse'

An example of how well their security personnel must be trained

Shiver me timbers, Israelis are fighting pirates at sea | technology

"The head of MSC Cruises, the company that owns Melody, said that the cruise line hired Israelis because they were the best trained"

If, as you suggest, they are hardly trained to fire a pistol i would not envisage them lasting long in the close quarter environment. You need to realise they work in one of the most volatile regions in the world, not some 'shopping mall'.


Paul
 

Shayah

יותר מקו
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
865
Reaction score
388
Location
תל אביב
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
If, as you suggest, they are hardly trained to fire a pistol i would not envisage them lasting long in the close quarter environment. You need to realise they work in one of the most volatile regions in the world, not some 'shopping mall'.
To use a US analogy, there is little comparison between a 9-5 security guard and a Blackwater contractor.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,787
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
To use a US analogy, there is little comparison between a 9-5 security guard and a Blackwater contractor.

It's like the difference between a Matkal commando and the old security guard in the school gates that has a pistol he has never used and whose entire job can be concluded with the morning greetings to the passing students.
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,986
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
Clashes in Jerusalem after settler guard kills Palestinian - Yahoo! News UK


Amazing that this guard was released without charge by Israel. :roll:

Oh wait, I said Israel. Never mind, not that amazing.

Everyone was taking the wonderful, beautiful day that god gave them to act out like imbicilic children.
Amid this routine bad behavior they decided to start stoning the vehicle of a security guard who's duty was to protect the residence
They detained him after he opened fire.
Found he acted within his self-protection after people started to stone his car.
He went back to work
Someone else shot him after his questioning.
Now he's dead

Yes - shame on them for letting him go, they should haven't detained him for protecting himself and trying to protect the neighborhood.

Honestly - what did you want them to do? They're amid craptacular and routine violent outbreaks - they can't detain people who didn't *start* the problem, can they?

Why aren't you saying "WTF is wrong with these people - why are they always violently protesting every damn thing!"
 

Manc Skipper

Wrinkly member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
33,491
Reaction score
22,303
Location
Southern England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
To use a US analogy, there is little comparison between a 9-5 security guard and a Blackwater contractor.


Imagine the response if a group of illegal aliens set up camp across the US border, and shot an American protester.
 

expandmymind

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
229
Reaction score
120
Location
Scotland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
you think that a security guard is trained to deal with a mob? they are hardly trained to fire a pistol

For you to be even trying to claim that the police force operating in occupied territory, where riots and protests are an everyday occurrence, would not be trained to deal with crowds shows how weak your stance is. It doesn't even slightly hold up to scrutiny.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,787
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Imagine the response if a group of illegal aliens set up camp across the US border, and shot an American protester.

No need to, as there is no connection between such situation and the situation in the OP, a security guard in East Jerusalem driving his car is being stopped by trash bins thrown into the middle of the road, and while still in his car, being ambushed by dozens of Palestinians who throw boulders and stones at him.
As I said, not going to shed a tear for a person who woke up in the morning and decided to murder another human being who has done nothing to him.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
19,787
Reaction score
6,221
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
For you to be even trying to claim that the police force operating in occupied territory, where riots and protests are an everyday occurrence, would not be trained to deal with crowds shows how weak your stance is. It doesn't even slightly hold up to scrutiny.

Yes, but since this person was not one of the police force, but a mere security guard, your argument is not merely weak but holds no water at all.
That is regardless of the fact that police officers have the right to self-defense as well, and when being ambushed, can return fire.
 

expandmymind

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
229
Reaction score
120
Location
Scotland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Everyone was taking the wonderful, beautiful day that god gave them to act out like imbicilic children.
Amid this routine bad behavior they decided to start stoning the vehicle of a security guard who's duty was to protect the residence
They detained him after he opened fire.
Found he acted within his self-protection after people started to stone his car.
He went back to work
Someone else shot him after his questioning.
Now he's dead

Yes - shame on them for letting him go, they should haven't detained him for protecting himself and trying to protect the neighborhood.

Honestly - what did you want them to do? They're amid craptacular and routine violent outbreaks - they can't detain people who didn't *start* the problem, can they?

Why aren't you saying "WTF is wrong with these people - why are they always violently protesting every damn thing!"

One little detail missing. This all happened in the other group's country..

It seems people want the occupied to appease the occupiers? How completely immoral.
 
Top Bottom