Citizen's Arrest

[Oozlefinch]

This is something that came up at work once again the other day, and I wanted to throw something out in here.

Now as a side note, all legal references I am going to make are in accordance to California Penal Code. There may be some differences between what I am going to say and where others in here may actually live. But by and large, almost all states and municipalities have criminal codes that follow the same restrictions and wordings.

California Penal Code 837.

A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

One thing I run into at least once a week is somebody who claims that I have absolutely no right to arrest or detain them. The thing is, everybody has the right to arrest and detain individuals who break the law, it is known as the "Citizen's Arrest". And by and large, it is no different then the rights and powers of any Law Enforcement Officer (LEO), other then in the circumstances in which they can imploy them.

To make an arrest, legally you only need 1 of 2 things. Either eyewitness the act of a misdemeanor taking place and the individual involved, or know that a felony has taken place and that the individual you want to arrest is most likely the one who comitted the crime. That is it.

In other words, if you see somebody breaking out car windows with a metal pipe, you can place them under arrest for vandalism. If you see somebody near a broken window with a metal pipe, you can not place them under arrest. You did not see the actual crime, which is a misdemeanor.

Now to go to the other case. If you walk around a corner and see a bloody individual laying on the ground and somebody standing above them with a bloody metal pipe, you can arrest them. The crime here is a felony, and there is reasonable belief that that person with the pipe did indeed commit the crime.

And such an arrest is no different then that of LEO in reality. Fight the arrest, and you can be charged with resisting arrest. Attack the arresting individual and you will be charged with felonious assault in the attempt of resisting arrest.

Now comes the part most people do not understand. The use of force.

In attempting to perform a citizen's arrest, you are authorized to use the amount of force needed to detain the subject. You can hold their arm and have them sit down, have 2 guys pin them to the ground, handcuff them, or anything else. However, it must be in balance with the amount of force they resist with.

If the individual complies and you body slam them, then you are excessive.

If the individual resists and tries to tries to pull out a weapon of some kind, body slamming them is perfectly fine.

Myself, I have arrested hundreds of individuals. And at least once a week I have one of them (or another) scream out that I am not allowed to arrest them, or that I am not allowed to touch them. Sorry, that is wrong. And my biggest nightmare is that somebody else will jump in and think they know the laws better then I do.



Notice towards the end, you had 2 people being handcuffed by the police, neither one of them was the security officers. One for Commercial Burglary (in California this is when a shoplifter uses force, a felony), and the other more then likely for assault and interfering with an arrest (and maybe conspiracy if he was involved in the theft).

Out of my hundreds of arrests, I have had to handcuff probably 2 dozen individuals. I have taken them to the ground, thrown them into walls, and the like. And the response from the cops-DA whenever they want to press charges against me has always been "Well, you should not have tried to fight him, he was withing his right and following the law." Not one single charge of excessive force ever against me.

Now here is one other thing to remember, you can not do what this moron tried to do:



The problem here is that in order to perform an arrest, the crime has to be a misdeomeanor or felony, not an infraction. Seat belt violations, jaywalking, failure to stop for a stop sign, not using turn signals, those are all infractions. Try to perform an arrest on people who do things like this will get the arresting individual themselves arrested for false arrest.

Hopefully this has answered any questions somebody may have about Citizen's Arrest.

 

[Chomsky]

<edit for brevity>

Hopefully this has answered any questions somebody may have about Citizen's Arrest.

Do you perform these arrests in a civilian capacity?

If so, what is your motivation?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Do you perform these arrests in a civilian capacity?

If so, what is your motivation?

I work as a Loss Prevention Officer. In other words, I catch shoplifters.

 

[Chomsky]

I work as a Loss Prevention Officer. In other words, I catch shoplifters.

Ah, that was my gut feeling.

Thanks for the reply.

(and thanks for starting the thread)

 

[Oozlefinch]

Ah, that was my gut feeling.

Thanks for the reply.

(and thanks for starting the thread)

No problem. I often want to laugh when somebody starts screaming I have no right to arrest them, or no right to touch them to make the arrest. And in reality, I am a pretty passive person for the most part. When I stop them and they do what I ask, I am very polite and do whatever I can to make their experience as comfortable as possible (believe it or not, most people when I release them after 15 minutes of paperwork shake my hand and thank me for being so polite with them). I simply treat everybody politely with respect ("Please come inside with me Ma'am", not "Get into the store you thieving madder fracker!"), and do all I can to calm the individual down.

However, resist me (or even worse and try to assault me), and that niceness can go quickly out the window (until I have them in custody, then the politeness returns). Only about 1 stop in 25 goes anywhere beyond "Please follow me back inside and return the merchandise", but all to often those 1 in 25 can get really ugly. The other day, I had 2 bystanders (friends of the shoplifter) try to get in the way, screaming I was not a cop so had no right to arrest them. One pushed me to the ground, the other screamed that I was trying to kidnap her and her friend. However, I got their plate number, and all 3 were quickly arrested. And I got the last laugh, as they exchanged Petty Theft charges where I would not have even called the police (they only took 1 bottle of vodka) into multiple felony charges (including conspiracy and commercial burglary).

But the interest in making this thread really started when I was researching "Citizen's Arrest" for a class I had to give, and discovered people trying to do that to cops (most often for seatbelt violations). I am constantly amazed that the cops never pulled those idiots over and put them under arrest. Seeing those videos really told me that most people have no concept of what a Citizen's Arrest is, who can do it, and when it can be done.

 

[Summerwind]

This is something that came up at work once again the other day, and I wanted to throw something out in here.

Now as a side note, all legal references I am going to make are in accordance to California Penal Code. There may be some differences between what I am going to say and where others in here may actually live. But by and large, almost all states and municipalities have criminal codes that follow the same restrictions and wordings.

California Penal Code 837.

A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it.

One thing I run into at least once a week is somebody who claims that I have absolutely no right to arrest or detain them. The thing is, everybody has the right to arrest and detain individuals who break the law, it is known as the "Citizen's Arrest". And by and large, it is no different then the rights and powers of any Law Enforcement Officer (LEO), other then in the circumstances in which they can imploy them.

To make an arrest, legally you only need 1 of 2 things. Either eyewitness the act of a misdemeanor taking place and the individual involved, or know that a felony has taken place and that the individual you want to arrest is most likely the one who comitted the crime. That is it.

In other words, if you see somebody breaking out car windows with a metal pipe, you can place them under arrest for vandalism. If you see somebody near a broken window with a metal pipe, you can not place them under arrest. You did not see the actual crime, which is a misdemeanor.

Now to go to the other case. If you walk around a corner and see a bloody individual laying on the ground and somebody standing above them with a bloody metal pipe, you can arrest them. The crime here is a felony, and there is reasonable belief that that person with the pipe did indeed commit the crime.

And such an arrest is no different then that of LEO in reality. Fight the arrest, and you can be charged with resisting arrest. Attack the arresting individual and you will be charged with felonious assault in the attempt of resisting arrest.

Now comes the part most people do not understand. The use of force.

In attempting to perform a citizen's arrest, you are authorized to use the amount of force needed to detain the subject. You can hold their arm and have them sit down, have 2 guys pin them to the ground, handcuff them, or anything else. However, it must be in balance with the amount of force they resist with.

If the individual complies and you body slam them, then you are excessive.

If the individual resists and tries to tries to pull out a weapon of some kind, body slamming them is perfectly fine.

Myself, I have arrested hundreds of individuals. And at least once a week I have one of them (or another) scream out that I am not allowed to arrest them, or that I am not allowed to touch them. Sorry, that is wrong. And my biggest nightmare is that somebody else will jump in and think they know the laws better then I do.



Notice towards the end, you had 2 people being handcuffed by the police, neither one of them was the security officers. One for Commercial Burglary (in California this is when a shoplifter uses force, a felony), and the other more then likely for assault and interfering with an arrest (and maybe conspiracy if he was involved in the theft).

Out of my hundreds of arrests, I have had to handcuff probably 2 dozen individuals. I have taken them to the ground, thrown them into walls, and the like. And the response from the cops-DA whenever they want to press charges against me has always been "Well, you should not have tried to fight him, he was withing his right and following the law." Not one single charge of excessive force ever against me.

Now here is one other thing to remember, you can not do what this moron tried to do:


The problem here is that in order to perform an arrest, the crime has to be a misdeomeanor or felony, not an infraction. Seat belt violations, jaywalking, failure to stop for a stop sign, not using turn signals, those are all infractions. Try to perform an arrest on people who do things like this will get the arresting individual themselves arrested for false arrest.

Hopefully this has answered any questions somebody may have about Citizen's Arrest.

I had to do a citizen's arrest when I was attacked at my daughter's graduation back a decade ago. The campus security couldn't, so they grabbed in the parking lot where he ran to as soon as he realized what he'd done and the entire arena saw him do it, but they had to have me go down and actually put him under arrest. It was interesting.

 

[Jerry]

I work as a Loss Prevention Officer. In other words, I catch shoplifters.

Oh you're that guy who followed me out to my car because I refused to show my receipt when the door alarm went off. That's a good way to get shot.

Just fyi you can't citizen arrest someone for shoplifting unless the total value would make it a felony; and even then you have to personally directly witness the felony. Anything less and you're going to loose both the criminal and civil cases.

I used to have a CA guard card and work private security at a hospital in CA in the late 90s. The best thing you can do is be a good witness and record information. best to not touch someone, though. Render aid to the injured and observe the perp, and yes please do defend yourself with all reasonable force, but don't go after anyone.

 

[radcen]

To make an arrest, legally you only need 1 of 2 things. Either eyewitness the act of a misdemeanor taking place and the individual involved, or know that a felony has taken place and that the individual you want to arrest is most likely the one who comitted the crime. That is it.

In other words, if you see somebody breaking out car windows with a metal pipe, you can place them under arrest for vandalism. If you see somebody near a broken window with a metal pipe, you can not place them under arrest. You did not see the actual crime, which is a misdemeanor.

Now to go to the other case. If you walk around a corner and see a bloody individual laying on the ground and somebody standing above them with a bloody metal pipe, you can arrest them. The crime here is a felony, and there is reasonable belief that that person with the pipe did indeed commit the crime.

Scenario 1: You witness a shopper stuff an item in their purse and walk out the door.

Scenario 2: You are standing by the exit and the alarm goes off.

Are both arrestable offenses? #1 I would say yes. #2 I'm not so sure. You didn't actually see it happen.

 

[Jerry]

Here's the way I see it: you're either a policeman, or you're not. If you're a policeman then you can expect my full cooperation. If you are not a policeman then you are an ordinary person and, like myself, should behave as such.

 

[Cryptic]

Here's the way I see it: you're either a policeman, or you're not.

Well said, I wish I had a "like" button. The concept of "everybody is a police officer" goes down hill- very fast.

If you are not a policeman then you are an ordinary person and, like myself, should behave as such.

I agree with the concept, but not the broad application. Designated store security needs more, but not total, leeway in these matters. They are operating as agents of a private property owner. Too much leeway in these instances effectively allows people to void property rights. Though not as slippery as the "everybody is a police officer" concept, it is still a slippery slope.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Oh you're that guy who followed me out to my car because I refused to show my receipt when the door alarm went off. That's a good way to get shot.

Just fyi you can't citizen arrest someone for shoplifting unless the total value would make it a felony; and even then you have to personally directly witness the felony. Anything less and you're going to loose both the criminal and civil cases.

I used to have a CA guard card and work private security at a hospital in CA in the late 90s. The best thing you can do is be a good witness and record information. best to not touch someone, though. Render aid to the injured and observe the perp, and yes please do defend yourself with all reasonable force, but don't go after anyone.

Oh, you're that guy that does not have a clue as to what he is talking about.

I do not do receipt checks, that is a door greater.

As for only being able to arrest somebody for being a felony, you are wrong. Did you not notice that I included the California Penal Code right there, clear in black and white? If you were really a guard in California, you would know this little fact, it is a major part of the Guard Card class. But I think you are clueless, and simply like to act as a troll.

But please, I already posted the California Penal Code, which clearly states that a person can do a Citizen's Arrest for anything over an infraction. Please give me the reference that says I am wrong, and you can only do it for a felony (in California that is Grand Theft, in excess of $950 (PC 487).

And you are wrong. Security can either "observe and report", or go 100% hands on, that all depends on the policy established by the security company and where you work. Most security guards indeed are "observe and report", and will do nothing even if it happens right in front of them. But this is just that, policy and procedure, not law.

Myself, I am not a Security Guard, I am Loss Prevention, a very different role, the "rules of engagement" from my company are completely different then those of most Security Guards. That is one reason many of my partners were "Uniforms" who came over, they got tired of doing nothing and decided they wanted to actually do something for a change.

Scenario 1: You witness a shopper stuff an item in their purse and walk out the door.

Scenario 2: You are standing by the exit and the alarm goes off.

Are both arrestable offenses? #1 I would say yes. #2 I'm not so sure. You didn't actually see it happen.

Only Scenario 1.

Remember, for a misdemeoner arrest, you must observe the crime being comitted. That means I must see the selection of the product and then it being concealed prior to the individual walking out the door.

In the second scenario, I can recover the product and take it back, but I can not arrest them for it. The only way that in scenario 2 that an arrest can be done is if the items stolen are in value of over $950, making it a felony.

 

[Jerry]

Well said, I wish I had a "like" button. The concept of "everybody is a police officer" goes down hill- very fast.


I agree with the concept, but not the broad application. Designated store security needs more, but not total, leeway in these matters. They are operating as agents of a private property owner. Too much leeway in these instances effectively allows people to void property rights. Though not as slippery as the "everybody is a police officer" concept, it is still a slippery slope.

As agents of the property owner, the maximum a security agent can do is what the owner themselves could do, which does not include arrest for misdemeanor theft.

 

[Jerry]

Oh, you're that guy that does not have a clue as to what he is talking about.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, with both credentials and experience.

I do not do receipt checks, that is a door greater.

Not in our town. They are one in the same. Loss prevention are the people who are assigned to the door greater task.

As for only being able to arrest somebody for being a felony, you are wrong. Did you not notice that I included the California Penal Code right there, clear in black and white?

If you were really a guard in California, you would know this little fact, it is a major part of the Guard Card class. But I think you are clueless, and simply like to act as a troll.

But please, I already posted the California Penal Code, which clearly states that a person can do a Citizen's Arrest for anything over an infraction. Please give me the reference that says I am wrong, and you can only do it for a felony (in California that is Grand Theft, in excess of $950 (PC 487).

And you are wrong. Security can either "observe and report", or go 100% hands on, that all depends on the policy established by the security company and where you work. Most security guards indeed are "observe and report", and will do nothing even if it happens right in front of them. But this is just that, policy and procedure, not law.

Myself, I am not a Security Guard, I am Loss Prevention, a very different role, the "rules of engagement" from my company are completely different then those of most Security Guards. That is one reason many of my partners were "Uniforms" who came over, they got tired of doing nothing and decided they wanted to actually do something for a change.



Only Scenario 1.

Remember, for a misdemeoner arrest, you must observe the crime being comitted. That means I must see the selection of the product and then it being concealed prior to the individual walking out the door.

In the second scenario, I can recover the product and take it back, but I can not arrest them for it. The only way that in scenario 2 that an arrest can be done is if the items stolen are in value of over $950, making it a felony.

Do as you like, you'll get shot and/or sued.

You're not a cop. The sooner you get that though your thick skull the more years you'll have to live.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I agree with the concept, but not the broad application. Designated store security needs more, but not total, leeway in these matters. They are operating as agents of a private property owner. Too much leeway in these instances effectively allows people to void property rights. Though not as slippery as the "everybody is a police officer" concept, it is still a slippery slope.

We work under some very narrow legal avenues, following strict guidelines.

Myself, I actually have a pretty good background for it. 18+ years military, including 10 years in the Infantry makes me good at observing things around me. This background is also one of the reasons why with less then 6 months on the job, I have basically become the district "Training Officer". Whenever we get a new hire, I am the first agent they work with. And interesting enough, my first question typically stumps them.

"What is the most important thing about this job?"

Every time I asked the new hire that, I generally get "Catch the shoplifter", "Stopping boosters", "Getting the merchandise back", or something like that. When the real answer is none of those, it is safety.

Loss Prevention is a subset of security, much like plainclothes detectives are a subset of police officers. Most Security Guards will never do a Citizen's Arrest, because their orders and procedures as set up by the company have them only allowed to "Observe and Report". But that is not the limit of what they can do by law, that is simply "company policy".

And remember, anybody can do a Citizen's Arrest. Anybody. Have a drunk back into your car in a parking lot and want to drive away, I would hope a reasonable person would pull them out of that car and place them under Citizen's Arrest, before they get out of the parking lot and run over a child. Some guy grabs your cell phone out of your hand and run away and you tackle him instead, that is a Citizen's Arrest (as long as they are turned over to the police, and not given "roadside justice").

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Here's the way I see it: you're either a policeman, or you're not. If you're a policeman then you can expect my full cooperation. If you are not a policeman then you are an ordinary person and, like myself, should behave as such.

So you then you opt not to recognize that law as valid? Which is fine by me. There are lots of laws I don't observe because I disagree with them.

 

[Cryptic]

As agents of the property owner, the maximum a security agent can do is what the owner themselves could do, which does not include arrest for misdemeanor theft.

So I could walk into a hotel lobby in California, un plug the computer (worth less than $1,500 and therefore a non felony theft), and walk out with it, and there is nothing the owner or his agent can do to stop me?

 

[Jerry]

So you then you opt not to recognize that law as valid? Which is fine by me. There are lots of laws I don't observe because I disagree with them.

Well here's the thing...if you're not a policeman, observe and report. No problem.

Try to detain or arest...problem. See I'm armed, and chances are in CA, you're not. You're going to loose that fight. There's nothing in your boss's inventory that's worth your life.

 

[radcen]

Only Scenario 1.

Remember, for a misdemeoner arrest, you must observe the crime being comitted. That means I must see the selection of the product and then it being concealed prior to the individual walking out the door.

In the second scenario, I can recover the product and take it back, but I can not arrest them for it. The only way that in scenario 2 that an arrest can be done is if the items stolen are in value of over $950, making it a felony.

Playing Devil's Advocate here...

The alarm goes off. You say you can take the merchandise. But if they have it hidden and refuse to admit they have it or let you search them, what can you do? You don't even know the value, so you cannot say with certainty that it crosses the $950 threshold.

 

[Jerry]

So I could walk into a hotel lobby in Texas, un plug the computer (worth less than $1,500 and therefore a non felony theft), and walk out with it, and there is nothing the owner or his agent can do to stop me?

Other than say "don't take that", no. It's an item. **** it. You are worth more then that computer.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Very intersting. Thanks for posting. Before I read that you were in loss prevention my thought upon hearing that you do this about once a week was, "damn, dude, you need a hobby".

It should be obvious to most people that citizen's arrest is legal, at least under certain conditions, because we see it happen all the time without he arrestor being charged.

It does make me wonder, though: Is resisting a citizen's arrest illegal?

 

[radcen]

Do as you like, you'll get shot and/or sued.

You're not a cop. The sooner you get that though your thick skull the more years you'll have to live.

I see people say stuff like this a lot, yet I pretty much never see in the news that this actually happens... ever.

I see shootings for other scenarios, but not because some security door guard accosted a shopper.

 

[Jerry]

So you then you opt not to recognize that law as valid? Which is fine by me. There are lots of laws I don't observe because I disagree with them.

That the law is valid is why private "loss prevention" cannot detain, serch or arrest me.

 

[Jerry]

I see people say stuff like this a lot, yet I pretty much never see in the news that this actually happens... ever.

I see shootings for other scenarios, but not because some security door guard accosted a shopper.

Yeah because the news is "fair & ballanced"

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Well here's the thing...if you're not a policeman, observe and report. No problem.

Try to detain or arest...problem. See I'm armed, and chances are in CA, you're not. You're going to loose that fight. There's nothing in your boss's inventory that's worth your life.

Then go rot in jail for the rest of your life bud, assuming the arresting individual doesnt use the necessary force to stop you.

Every state, even blue as hell connecticut, has citizens arrest laws that empower us to do good when we can.

 

[Cryptic]

Other than say "say, don't take that", no. It's an item. **** it. You are worth more then that computer.

Thanks, I had no idea that California was that insane. They are such a contrast to states that allow people to use lethal force to defend property.