CIA Running Secret Terror Prisons

[Binary_Digit]

That's true, it's only an assumption that torture is going on somewhere. Forgive me, but since:

1.) Bush has repeatedly asserted that terrorists are not protected under anti-torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil
2.) Bush threatened to veto a bill that would bar American forces from torturing detainees.
3.) When the bill passes the House by a vote of 90-9, Cheney proposed that CIA agents be exempt from said bill

I'm inclined to believe that torture is probably going on somewhere. Is that unreasonable?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/24/AR2005102402051.html

 

[Calm2Chaos]

It's illegal and immoral to do a lot of the things we do, like dropping bombs on women and children, but sometimes it just can't be helped. You can not deal in these terms, with an enemy that refuses to play by the same rules, to do so would not only be foolish, but dangerous. I hope they are in some dark wet hole, working these bastards over with rusty pliers, and steel pipes, whatever it takes to get the information we need, and to protect America, and our allies. When ever I feel like a weak coward, and want to second guess the importance of the CIA's work, I just remember the day those people jumped 80 to 90 stories to their deaths, and then I say to myself, screw it.

When have we ever targeted woman and children?

As for the pliers being rusty, I think we can afford something a little newer

 

[TimmyBoy]

Calm2Chaos, see I knew you wouldn't be able to resist heh heh. I just feel love here. Ok *GROUP HUG*

 

[Calm2Chaos]

That's true, it's only an assumption that torture is going on somewhere. Forgive me, but since:

1.) Bush has repeatedly asserted that terrorists are not protected under anti-torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil
2.) Bush threatened to veto a bill that would bar American forces from torturing detainees.
3.) When the bill passes the House by a vote of 90-9, Cheney proposed that CIA agents be exempt from said bill

I'm inclined to believe that torture is probably going on somewhere. Is that unreasonable?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/24/AR2005102402051.html

So your version is guilty till proven innocent.. How american of you.....that was sarcasim by the way.

Your sig is pretty humorous also....:rofl

 

[Binary_Digit]

And your incapable of understanding why this isn't or wasn't common knowledge?

Oh, I fully understand why this wasn't common knowledge. Because Bush and co. understand that the civilized world does not look kindly on this sort of thing. He was right for a change.

 

[Binary_Digit]

So your version is guilty till proven innocent.. How american of you.....that was sarcasim by the way.

Your sig is pretty humorous also....:rofl

I acknowledged that it's an assumption. Now answer the question, is it unreasonable?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Calm2Chaos, see I knew you wouldn't be able to resist heh heh. I just feel love here. Ok *GROUP HUG*

You know I'm all about the love and cutesy cutesy ****... I can feel the flowers growing out of my azz as we speak

 

[TimmyBoy]

You know I'm all about the love and cutesy cutesy ****... I can feel the flowers growing out of my azz as we speak

Ha ha ha, well, at least you can joke about it. I am not assuming anything, I am just sucipicious of government secrecy.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I acknowledged that it's an assumption. Now answer the question, is it unreasonable?

I'm not going to answer the question it's completely biased and unsubstaniated. It's a prison, anything can happen in it. They could be running around dressed like chickens nailing there 20 virgins. I have nothing pointing to the fact that torture is a reasonable assumption.

But if they are torturing people, hopefully the intel will save a few lives

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ha ha ha, well, at least you can joke about it. I am not assuming anything, I am just sucipicious of government secrecy.

And I can see the reasoning behind this being secret. A prison with known terrorist and top al quaeda planners might be a prime target for the other animals out there.

 

[Deegan]

When have we ever targeted woman and children?

As for the pliers being rusty, I think we can afford something a little newer

I never said "targeted" it just happens in war, and could certainly be considered, illegal, and immoral. Our weapons are more accurate these days, and this happens less and less, but it still happens unfortunately.

 

[Binary_Digit]

What!?! Human emotion is not the "best" decision maker. Far from it. The general American has this weakness. America's willingness to send their son's off to die in war and then execute a complete 180 when they get bored and their son's are in war dieing is proof of America's emotional weakness. Iraq isn't the only time this happened. Vietnam...Somalia...Bosnia....

Sorry Gunny, I missed this post in all the confusion. What I said was entirely sarcastic. It was in response to legitimizing torture by remembering the people jumping from the WTC. That is purely an emotional decision, and is reckless. So it seems we agree.

 

[MSgt]

That's true, it's only an assumption that torture is going on somewhere. Forgive me, but since:

1.) Bush has repeatedly asserted that terrorists are not protected under anti-torture laws because they aren't on U.S. soil
2.) Bush threatened to veto a bill that would bar American forces from torturing detainees.
3.) When the bill passes the House by a vote of 90-9, Cheney proposed that CIA agents be exempt from said bill

I'm inclined to believe that torture is probably going on somewhere. Is that unreasonable?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/24/AR2005102402051.html

More of the same. There's not a lot of substance, but a whole lot of implying. This will, of course, make the Bush administration have to defend and then accusations will be made and then people will start assuming and speculating on the new comments made.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Oh, I fully understand why this wasn't common knowledge. Because Bush and co. understand that the civilized world does not look kindly on this sort of thing. He was right for a change.

I'm curious ... were you this vocal about saddam torturing scores and scores of his own people? How about the rape rooms? Would I be correct in assuming that you have been protesting these techniques for the last 40 years. The reason i ask is torture has been a common practice in every war probably since the beginning of time. It is a harsh barbaric way of getting information I admit. But we weren't the first to use it, nor are we the most proficient at it. It's an occurrence that goes on around the world 365 days a year. Are you against the practice as a whole or just when you want to criticize the President or this country?

 

[Binary_Digit]

I'm not going to answer the question it's completely biased and unsubstaniated. It's a prison, anything can happen in it. They could be running around dressed like chickens nailing there 20 virgins. I have nothing pointing to the fact that torture is a reasonable assumption.

Completely biased and unsubstantiated? I have used 3 verifiable FACTS to make a conclusion I believe is reasonable, and yet you claim to have nothing that points you to the same conclusion. Furthermore you won't explain WHY the conclusion is unreasonable, nor will you refute the FACTS I have stated. Way to go, you debate masta you!

But if they are torturing people, hopefully the intel will save a few lives

As if your dodging my question wasn't enough, you completely ignore a half-dozen intelligence experts telling you that intel gained from torture is worthless, and thus it doesn't save lives. It seems your ears can only hear what your own mouth is saying?

 

[Deegan]

What concerns me is the constant leaks coming out of the CIA, it would appear some of folks should not be trusted to keep important secrets. These things are secret for a reason, and the American people do not have to know about everything that is going on in this agency. There is a very good reason why we have secrets, and it seems that these reporters are working day and night to get at every one of those secrets, this is dangerous. So I guess the answer would be no, we are not a completely open society, nor should we be, not where this is concerned.

 

[Binary_Digit]

I'm curious ... were you this vocal about saddam torturing scores and scores of his own people? How about the rape rooms? Would I be correct in assuming that you have been protesting these techniques for the last 40 years.

Nice try, but no I was not this vocal. Because it wasn't MY government. But you can bet I am against all forms of torture, no matter who does it to whom, or when.

The reason i ask is torture has been a common practice in every war probably since the beginning of time.It is a harsh barbaric way of getting information I admit. But we weren't the first to use it, nor are we the most proficient at it. It's an occurrence that goes on around the world 365 days a year. Are you against the practice as a whole or just when you want to criticize the President or this country?

Yeah, well murder has happened since the beginning of time too. That makes it ok?

Make no mistake, I'm against this practice as a whole, not just to criticize Bush. I'm more vocal about it now because this time it's my country, and I'm especially disgusted by that.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Completely biased and unsubstantiated? I have used 3 verifiable FACTS to make a conclusion I believe is reasonable, and yet you claim to have nothing that points you to the same conclusion. Furthermore you won't explain WHY the conclusion is unreasonable, nor will you refute the FACTS I have stated. Way to go, you debate masta you!


As if your dodging my question wasn't enough, you completely ignore a half-dozen intelligence experts telling you that intel gained from torture is worthless, and thus it doesn't save lives. It seems your ears can only hear what your own mouth is saying?

You quoted 3 statements or lines from the President. I don't think he is there overseeing the prison. Your taking a broad statement and focusing it on one subject.
So your assumption is that EVERY prison run by the governement not on US soil is using torture?

Is it possible.... Yes
is it reasonable... I don't know

Should they continue if they are.. If they feel they are getting usable info most certainly. Far as i'm concerned you lost your rights as a prisoner or human when you kowingly target woman and children over and over and over again, saw peoples heads off so your terrorist news organization can gleefully show it throught the ME..

 

[hiker]

What concerns me is the constant leaks coming out of the CIA, it would appear some of folks should not be trusted to keep important secrets. These things are secret for a reason, and the American people do not have to know about everything that is going on in this agency. There is a very good reason why we have secrets, and it seems that these reporters are working day and night to get at every one of those secrets, this is dangerous. So I guess the answer would be no, we are not a completely open society, nor should we be, not where this is concerned.

I have to disagree in this case. Just the knowledge that the CIA is doing their job is not a reason to put a stop to the press (as if you could) The existance of these bases is still unsubstantiated, but did anyone ever really doubt they existed all along? Yet, we don't have any idea what goes on inside, not even a rumor. I don't think we know anything, really. The press has been shut out here, not the other way around.

 

[Binary_Digit]

You quoted 3 statements or lines from the President. I don't think he is there overseeing the prison. Your taking a broad statement and focusing it on one subject.

Of course the President isn't overseeing the prisons. But he has made his position on torture quite clear, don't you agree?

So your assumption is that EVERY prison run by the governement not on US soil is using torture?

Lol no! I plainly stated that my assumption is torture is probably going on somewhere. That's not even close to saying EVERY prison.

Is it possible.... Yes
is it reasonable... I don't know

Well that's a start, thanks for being more objective about it.

Should they continue if they are.. If they feel they are getting usable info most certainly.

Alright, actually I'll agree in part with you on that. IF....IF torturing a person would DEFINATELY lead to life-saving information, then I think I would be ok with it for that circumstance. But the thing that debunks it for me is what these intelligence experts say about the credibility of tortured information. It's consistently unreliable. It's bogus, worthless crap. It almost never results in good information, let alone life-saving information. These aren't desk-jockey intellectuals who don't know the real world, these are guys who have actually interrogated people for a living.

 

[Deegan]

I have to disagree in this case. Just the knowledge that the CIA is doing their job is not a reason to put a stop to the press (as if you could) The existance of these bases is still unsubstantiated, but did anyone ever really doubt they existed all along? Yet, we don't have any idea what goes on inside, not even a rumor. I don't think we know anything, really. The press has been shut out here, not the other way around.

I believe it to be the truth, and the only way it got out, was a CIA leak, and that is very alarming to me. I don't want to stop the press, but I don't think they should be talking with repoters about secrets, and the agents should not be talking with them. You said yourself, "does anyone even doubt it" No, of course not, so why do you disagree, or do you think it's o.k for CIA agents to talk to reporters about secret operations?

 

[SixStringHero]

I don't agree with the idea of torturing people to get some intel. There are already countless reports, and even John McCain admitted that the victim will fabricate "truths" just to have the torture stopped.

I'm very torn on the idea of torturing someone if we actually knew it would save lives. If it was for the greater good, then I would have to say with cringed teeth-- do it. I don't like the idea of being brought down to their level.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Alright, actually I'll agree in part with you on that. IF....IF torturing a person would DEFINATELY lead to life-saving information, then I think I would be ok with it for that circumstance. But the thing that debunks it for me is what these intelligence experts say about the credibility of tortured information. It's consistently unreliable. It's bogus, worthless crap. It almost never results in good information, let alone life-saving information. These aren't desk-jockey intellectuals who don't know the real world, these are guys who have actually interrogated people for a living.

Aight... Thats a start.....

I'm not sure if anybody is ever going ot start saying yeah we torture guys and it works great. It's just not going to happen. there not going to tip there hand at getting information from someone or how they got it. If something is effective there going continue to use it. They won't however advertise it, least not in my opinion.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I don't agree with the idea of torturing people to get some intel. There are already countless reports, and even John McCain admitted that the victim will fabricate "truths" just to have the torture stopped.

I'm very torn on the idea of torturing someone if we actually knew it would save lives. If it was for the greater good, then I would have to say with cringed teeth-- do it. I don't like the idea of being brought down to their level.

Dying is better?

I guess I don't understand this "brought down to their level" ideal. There is no moral superiority in war. It's about pain and death and blood and dying and killing.... Your going to have a rough road bringing morals into that.

 

[Binary_Digit]

Aight... Thats a start.....

I'm not sure if anybody is ever going ot start saying yeah we torture guys and it works great. It's just not going to happen. there not going to tip there hand at getting information from someone or how they got it. If something is effective there going continue to use it. They won't however advertise it, least not in my opinion.

And that's ok with you? You're comfortable with sitting idly by and watching the United States of America torture its enemies? I'm sorry, but I want to live in America, not the USSR. We should set the standard for human rights, not pretend like it's a normal part of life. And we wonder why they hate us.

Dying is better?

No, humane interrogation techniques are better, because, among other reasons, they actually work better.

I guess I don't understand this "brought down to their level" ideal. There is no moral superiority in war. It's about pain and death and blood and dying and killing.... Your going to have a rough road bringing morals into that.

Yes there is a moral superiority in war, it's called utilitarianism. Maximize the good and minimize the bad. The amount of good that comes from torture does not outweigh the amount of bad that comes from it. Consistently. The experts I've seen are all in agreement. I've looked for compelling arguments that torture can lead to good information, and I've only found a few references to isolated cases. No trend, no consistent findings, no quotes from guys in the field, almost no credibility to the argument at all.

Torturing terrorists is not a good way to fight terrorism. It's a good way to get more people to hate us enough to become terrorists themselves.