Christians and Israel

[tosca1]

The people have rejected the covenant, so why should we have any particular fidelity to the state of Israel?

That's been answered already.

 

[tosca1]

There doesn't seem to be a coherent theological position on Israel that makes sense of the biblical narrative and winds up requiring you to support the modern state of Israel. Neither does there seem to be any way to link the modern state of Israel with the historical nation of Israel as it existed in biblical times, other than by name. For those reasons, I can't justify the belief that Christians are under any obligation to support the modern state calling itself Israel (or even the biblical Israel if it somehow re-emerged).

The link was not broken.


Read the whole chapter of Romans 11.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV



Ephesians 3

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

TOGETHER. With Israel.




Some Christians refuse to see the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, but Jesus never denied His Jewishness.

He was born Jewish, He was circumcised on the eighth day in keeping with Jewish tradition, He kept the law of Moses, etc., The Jews were His people. He was born a Jew! He was one of them!
FOR THAT ALONE, why shouldn't we support them?



As He was being killed on the cross, what did He ask of God?

Luke 23
33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”[c] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.



--------------------------

Read Matthew 25

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”



The "brethren" he referred to are the saved gentiles and jews.
"Come, you who are blessed," said God, "take your inheritance..." Remember, saved gentiles are co-heirs with the saved jews.


If we turn our backs on the jews, it's like turning our backs on Jesus.


Mathew 25 described both the blessed, and the cursed. Remember God's promise to Abraham on Genesis 12:

3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;

and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

 

[RGacky3]

As far as I can see, it's not written on people's hearts yet. They have to use books and be taught by others.

It is in the sense that the New covenant is not someone one is born into, it's one that you must enter into willfully, if you have his Law in Your heart you'll join.

 

[RAMOSS]

It is in the sense that the New covenant is not someone one is born into, it's one that you must enter into willfully, if you have his Law in Your heart you'll join.

It Christians want to twist intepretation , that won't be the first time.

 

[RGacky3]

It Christians want to twist intepretation , that won't be the first time.

No ... Do you really think Jeremiah was being literal?

The point is obviously that his People would have God's Law on their heart, as in they will love Gods Law.

 

[RAMOSS]

No ... Do you really think Jeremiah was being literal?

The point is obviously that his People would have God's Law on their heart, as in they will love Gods Law.

That is not the point at all. That is a nice twist on it though.

 

[phattonez]

That's been answered already.

You haven't answered it, you've simply implied that the covenant is with the land, and then when I ask you to state that explicitly you deny it.

 

[tosca1]

You haven't answered it, you've simply implied that the covenant is with the land, and then when I ask you to state that explicitly you deny it.

I don't know what you're on about me "implying the covenant was with the land" - who did God had a covenant with? The land?

Re-read the flow of our discussion, and also my response to Crabcake #77.

 

[tosca1]

That is not the point at all. That is a nice twist on it though.

What exactly is your point? Explain fully.

 

[CrabCake]

The link was not broken.

Prove it.

Read the whole chapter of Romans 11.

That makes as much sense as if I told you "read the bible". If you have evidence, present it.

Ephesians 3

6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel,
members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

TOGETHER. With Israel.

This was written to Jewish Christians during a time when Christianity was a sect of Judaism. The point of writing this is to defend the practice of accepting gentiles into Christianity, which at the time was a Jewish sect. To use it for other purposes is to take this letter out of context. The Jewish Christians of Ephesus would not have considered the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes, or other non-Christian sects of Judaism co-heirs in Christ any more than we should. That's why there was such a focus on evangelism.

Some Christians refuse to see the connection between Jesus of Nazareth and the Jews of the world, but Jesus never denied His Jewishness.

I've never encountered anyone who makes such a claim. It sounds like someone is building a straw man.

He was born Jewish, He was circumcised on the eighth day in keeping with Jewish tradition, He kept the law of Moses, etc., The Jews were His people. He was born a Jew! He was one of them!
FOR THAT ALONE, why shouldn't we support them?

I had never heard such a theology before. We should support the modern state of Israel because it's controlled by people who share a race and customs with Jesus? That's not a very robust theology.

As He was being killed on the cross, what did He ask of God?

Relevance?

Read Matthew 25...

The "brethren" he referred to are the saved gentiles and jews.

Close.

It's The Church. Which is composed of all those who believe and follow Christ, jew and gentile alike.

or if you want to be more precise theologically, it is "the elect".

"Come, you who are blessed," said God, "take your inheritance..." Remember, saved gentiles are co-heirs with the saved jews.

Right. They are also co-heirs with the saved Germans and the saved Iranians and the saved Nigerians, etc...

If we turn our backs on the jews, it's like turning our backs on Jesus.

Not at all. The Apostles themselves turned their back on the nation of Israel. They ran for the hills during the Jewish revolt in A.D. 70 and watched the destruction of the temple and the slaughter of the people of Israel from a safe distance. They understood Jesus' message and knew that it was no longer about the Nation of Israel.

 

[tosca1]

Prove it.

I just did. Romans 11 and the rest of what I gave above.

That makes as much sense as if I told you "read the bible". If you have evidence, present it.

The link was NEVER broken!


Romans 11 (NIV)


The Remnant of Israel

11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]



Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!




All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27
And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology

33
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34
“Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35
“Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

 

[blarg]

You brought up the 2% - like as if that's the deal breaker! :lol:

My point, it shouldn't matter if there is only 1 single Christian, or if there is none at all! If God says to stand with Israel, that's what matters.

no treating people like you would want to be treated as if they were all Jesus is probably what matters you should stand for people who are doing what's right or who are suffering wrong

might put you with and against both sides when it comes to Israel and Palestine

 

[tosca1]

This was written to Jewish Christians during a time when Christianity was a sect of Judaism.

No, Paul was addressing the gentiles. Ephisians were mostly gentiles. Just look at the opening of the letter.

"For the sake of you gentiles - "




Ephesians 3

God’s Marvelous Plan for the Gentiles

3 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—

2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The point of writing this is to defend the practice of accepting gentiles into Christianity, which at the time was a Jewish sect. To use it for other purposes is to take this letter out of context.

No. The point of writing this is to reveal to the people (gentiles in particular), what God had revealed to the Apostles through the Spirit regarding His plans for the gentiles. It is in perfect context.

You've misunderstood from the onset - you thought he was talking to the Jewish Christians - thus, you've already taken it out of context based on that alone. Paul was explaining to the gentiles that they are co-heirs with Israel. Meaning, Israel no longer has the monopoly or exclusivity to salvation and the promises of Jesus Christ. The same extends to gentiles!

Furthermore, Christianity was not a "sect" of Judaism! It's totally new! Just because the first members were Jews doesn't mean it's a sect.

The Jewish Christians of Ephesus would not have considered the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes, or other non-Christian sects of Judaism co-heirs in Christ any more than we should.

Paul never implied that he was passing on a REQUEST from God.
Personal views and feedbacks were not being sought for. It was not a call for a referendum.

Paul was merely passing on, and explaining the DECLARATION of God.

That's why there was such a focus on evangelism.

Of course. It was a very significant UPDATE! God had declared HIS WILL regarding this matter!


Obedience is required. No matter how unpalatable - humility and meekness are called for.

 

[tosca1]

Right. They are also co-heirs with the saved Germans and the saved Iranians and the saved Nigerians, etc...

Yes. Nobody excluded them. They all fall in the category of GENTILES.


Gentiles - (Heb., usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews.


Thus God said, gentiles (that also includes saved Iranians, saved Nigerians, saved Palestinians, saved Libyans, saved Ethiopians, saved Indonesians, saved Turks, etc..,) are heirs TOGETHER with ISRAEL.
TOGETHER in ONE BODY (as in the church - in Christ).
SHARERS TOGETHER of the promises of Christ.


TOGETHER, was very much emphasized.

 

[tosca1]

Not at all. The Apostles themselves turned their back on the nation of Israel. They ran for the hills during the Jewish revolt in A.D. 70 and watched the destruction of the temple and the slaughter of the people of Israel from a safe distance. They understood Jesus' message and knew that it was no longer about the Nation of Israel.

Being away from the conflict does not necessarily mean they turned their backs on Israel.
How would you know how they might have felt or thought? You're making reckless assumptions.

Btw, the apostles all ran for cover and hid when Jesus was crucified.

 

[Logicman]

It Christians want to twist intepretation , that won't be the first time.

<facepalm...>

So, in your mind, what's the New Covenant (spoken about in Jeremiah 31:31-34) all about?

 

[RAMOSS]

<facepalm...>

So, in your mind, what's the New Covenant (spoken about in Jeremiah 31:31-34) all about?

It is the same old covenant , but since it is merely being reaffirmed again.

What Jews Believe: Prooftext #7: Jer. 31:31-34

 

[Logicman]

It is the same old covenant , but since it is merely being reaffirmed again.

What Jews Believe: Prooftext #7: Jer. 31:31-34

Wrong. The prophesy itself states that it won't be like the Old Covenant.

"Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel

"not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant..." Jeremiah 31:31-32, JPS Jewish Bible

 

[tosca1]

It is the same old covenant , but since it is merely being reaffirmed again.

What Jews Believe: Prooftext #7: Jer. 31:31-34

How can it be the same or being reaffirmed, when God said it is new and different from the ones made with their fathers?

Logicman's explanation is bang-on!

 

[RAMOSS]

Wrong. The prophesy itself states that it won't be like the Old Covenant.

"Behold, the days come, saith HaShem, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel

"not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers" in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant..." Jeremiah 31:31-32, JPS Jewish Bible

Shrug.. what part of 'eternal covenet' don't you understand. It's renewal of vows with a new generation.

 

[Logicman]

Shrug.. what part of 'eternal covenet' don't you understand. It's renewal of vows with a new generation.

It says it won't be like the OC, or "not according to the covenant" made with their fathers. What part of that don't you understand?

 

[tosca1]

Shrug.. what part of 'eternal covenet' don't you understand. It's renewal of vows with a new generation.

The covenant may be eternal ....but the conditions had changed.

 

[jamesrage]

Without Israel, there wouldn't be Christianity.

It is without Judaism being the preceding religion there wouldn't be any Christianity. Israel itself is just a country.

Christians have an obligation to stand with Israel.

No we don't have an obligation to stand with Israel.Israel is a nothing more than a country. This idea that Christians have to stand with a country a country because that is where Christianity came from 2000 years ago is absurd.

 

[tosca1]

It is without Judaism being the preceding religion there wouldn't be any Christianity. Israel itself is just a country.

No, it's a whole lot more than just the name of a country.

This is a very long article explaining in details about Israel, the covenant, their role, etc.


Israel

The Name and People.
Jacob, grandson of Abraham, was named Israel after he had wrestled with God
( Gen32:28 ). This name is a combination of the Hebrew words for "wrestle" and "God" (because sareta [you have wrestled] with God [‘el] and men you will be called yisrael).

When Jacob had returned to Canaan, God commanded him to settle in Bethel; there God appeared to Jacob again and repeated that his name was no longer Jacob but Israel. This confirmation of the naming was followed by God confirming his covenant with Jacob ( Gen 35:9-12 ),emphasizing specific elements of the covenant he had made with Abraham ( Gen 17:1-8 ).

The name, expressing the concept of wrestling, clinging firmly to God, and overcoming, and God's confirming of his covenant with Jacob, indicates that Israel is to be understood as Jacob's covenant name.
The name spoke of his being bound with a bond of life and love to God. His descendants were at times referred to as Hebrews ( Genesis 39:14 Genesis 39:17 ; 40:15 ; 41:12 ), and when they were slaves in Egypt ( Exod 1:15 ; 2:13 ), and occasionally in other contexts (e.g., Deut 15:12 ; 1 Sam 4:6 ; Isa 36:11 ; Jeremiah 34:9 Jeremiah 34:14 ).
Eventually they were known as Jews (first mentioned in Jer 32:12 ). The use of these references, "Hebrew" and "Jew, " indicated that among the nations, Abraham and Jacob's descendants were thus known nationally and/or ethnically.

The name "Israel, " however, referred to Jacob's descendants' spiritual, covenantal, and religious heritage. The name "Israel" spoke of the ethnic or national Hebrews' and Jews' unique relationship with God. There was a time when the name was not used to refer to all of Jacob's descendants because after the division of the tribes, the northern ten tribes were known as Israel and the southern tribes as Judah.
After the exile it was used again to refer to the entire community.


The descendants of Jacob, the Israelite covenant community, whether in homeland or in exile, would continue so that God's covenant promises concerning the conquering seed, as represented by the Davidic dynasty, and concerning his all-encompassing kingdom would in time be realized.

Thus the nation of Israel was not the central focus; God's purposes to be realized through Israel were.
Israel, as a people, would bring in the Messiah.



Israel - Definition and Meaning, Bible Dictionary

This idea that Christians have to stand with a country a country because that is where Christianity came from 2000 years ago is absurd.

Did you read my previous posts that show standing in support of Israel is biblical? The verses given?
Also posts # 77, 86, and 88?

 

[RGacky3]

That is not the point at all. That is a nice twist on it though.

So you think Jeremiah was being literal here?