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Christians Against the Death Penalty

dreamaccount2000 said:
This was a command against personal vengenece not a command against the death penalty. The bible supports the death penalty

Yea, in the Old Testament, maybe you're right, as those were barbaric times. It wasn't a "love your enemy" time period.:lol: But in the NT, Jesus teaches salvation, not revenge. In all truth, the death penalty dosen't bring back the victim.
 
putting in my 2 cents

I hate the death penalty, if anything they should have life in prison so the innocents have a chance of being acquitted. Also, If you kill a person, you are just as bad as the supposed murderer and if we killed everybody who killed someone, we'd all be dead.
 
Aurora151989 said:
putting in my 2 cents

I hate the death penalty, if anything they should have life in prison so the innocents have a chance of being acquitted. Also, If you kill a person, you are just as bad as the supposed murderer and if we killed everybody who killed someone, we'd all be dead.

Exactly. Yes the death penalty is asinine. It is murder whether the government is doing the killing, or a single person. In fact, it costs a hell of a lot more to execute someone, opposed to housing them for life, the appeals clog our court system, it sends the wrong message to criminals: we need to kill someone for killing someone. IMO life in prison is worse and not to mention a better detterent. I think the death penalty is rather barbaric and useless, as it won't bring back the victim.
 
cmitch06 said:
Any Christian who bases their faith on what Jesus Christ said and not what men have said can not support the death penalty. Jesus never condoned capital punishment. Ex: 1. "He who is without sin cast the first stone"
2. "You have been told and eye for and eye and a tooth for a
tooth but I will tell you different"
3. " Turn the other cheek"
It's extremely interesting, Jesus teaches that we should not retaliate:
Matt 5 said:
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And he goes on to say that we should love our enemies:
Matt 5 said:
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
And later that we should forgive all:
Matt 6 said:
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Those who believe in Jesus Christ, and actually know his teachings, it seems, couldn't support Capital Punishment by definition.

GW said:
Um, well, I consider myself to be a, "real" Christian. Despite the fact that I support capital punishment. I just feel like it's only fair for the state to kill those that have murdered others.
Would Jesus kill someone like that?
 
kal-el said:
Yea, in the Old Testament, maybe you're right, as those were barbaric times. It wasn't a "love your enemy" time period.:lol: But in the NT, Jesus teaches salvation, not revenge. In all truth, the death penalty dosen't bring back the victim.

As Jesus did say, "Let the dead bury their own dead." I doubt he would have supported the death penalty because all it does is adds to the body count, and that is the last thing we need.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
It's extremely interesting, Jesus teaches that we should not retaliate:

And he goes on to say that we should love our enemies:

And later that we should forgive all:

Those who believe in Jesus Christ, and actually know his teachings, it seems, couldn't support Capital Punishment by definition.


Would Jesus kill someone like that?

I agree, that an honest and true Christian, could not support the death penalty.
 
TimmyBoy said:
I agree, that an honest and true Christian, could not support the death penalty.
I find it funny that it's not something that Jesus implied, it was something he said explicitly: "whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also," "Love your enemies," and "forgive men their trespasses."
 
galenrox said:
Then answer me one question:
Do we have a perfect justice system?
Because if we don't that would lead to the logical progression that if we're not perfect, then it would be a very bad idea to make our decisions irreversable, especially within our justice system which holds the stance that it would prefer to let the guilty go over convicting a single innocent.

It's far from perfect and I agree with you fully. That is, let one guilty person
go free rather than convict one innocent. Thus I am unapologetically against
the death penalty.

Speaking of OJ... :mrgreen: (pause for laughter)

I feel the system is getting worse rather than better. With the Patriot Act
as the new rule of law more and more innocents will be put to the
test over time. With the implementation of full-time surveillance, which I
firmly believe is right around the corner if not already here, accusations
will be brought forth freely by the so-called justice system.

I said a long time ago the F B I will either a) stretch the limits of the
Patriot Act, or b) redefine terrorism to include all sorts of crimes not
associated with terrorism. I think time will prove me right.
 
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I am a real, born again Christian. I totally support the death penalty!!! The old testament teaches to kill murderers! If you toss away that, why don't we throw away the "Thou shalt not kill, steal, ect" part?!?!
If a government official came up to me, "Sir, here is a cold-blooded killer positively identified as the killer of an innocent man, would you shoot/flick the switch, If you don't execute him we''l let him go free, I would say "Yes!"

Criminials thrive on the indulgence of society's 'understanding'. Crime cannot be tolerated!

Of course Jesus wouldn't execute someone! He came to give salvation, not to judge us! But to be just, we should execute killers! It protects society. If a burgarler broke into my house, I would not hesitate to shoot him dead for breaking and entering!
Without the death penalty, We place of small price tag on YOUR LIFE!! YOU COULD BE THE NEXT DEAD VICTIM, AND YOUR KILLER WOULD LIVE ON!
If you could come back to life for 10 minutes after being murdered, and be given the choice of having your killer live or die, which would you choose? That killer let out on parole could kill your brother or sister, mother or father!
 
Ignoring the New Testiment, sure.
 
Judge said:
I am a real, born again Christian. I totally support the death penalty!!! The old testament teaches to kill murderers! If you toss away that, why don't we throw away the "Thou shalt not kill, steal, ect" part?!?!
If a government official came up to me, "Sir, here is a cold-blooded killer positively identified as the killer of an innocent man, would you shoot/flick the switch, If you don't execute him we''l let him go free, I would say "Yes!"

Criminials thrive on the indulgence of society's 'understanding'. Crime cannot be tolerated!

Of course Jesus wouldn't execute someone! He came to give salvation, not to judge us! But to be just, we should execute killers! It protects society. If a burgarler broke into my house, I would not hesitate to shoot him dead for breaking and entering!
Without the death penalty, We place of small price tag on YOUR LIFE!! YOU COULD BE THE NEXT DEAD VICTIM, AND YOUR KILLER WOULD LIVE ON!
If you could come back to life for 10 minutes after being murdered, and be given the choice of having your killer live or die, which would you choose? That killer let out on parole could kill your brother or sister, mother or father!

Uh, if we're talking about Christianity here, what about an eye for eye? How is it OK for you to kill an intruder unless you have legitimate reasont to believe your life is at risk?
 
Judge said:
I am a real, born again Christian. I totally support the death penalty!!! The old testament teaches to kill murderers! If you toss away that, why don't we throw away the "Thou shalt not kill, steal, ect" part?!?!
If a government official came up to me, "Sir, here is a cold-blooded killer positively identified as the killer of an innocent man, would you shoot/flick the switch, If you don't execute him we''l let him go free, I would say "Yes!"

Criminials thrive on the indulgence of society's 'understanding'. Crime cannot be tolerated!

Of course Jesus wouldn't execute someone! He came to give salvation, not to judge us! But to be just, we should execute killers! It protects society. If a burgarler broke into my house, I would not hesitate to shoot him dead for breaking and entering!
Without the death penalty, We place of small price tag on YOUR LIFE!! YOU COULD BE THE NEXT DEAD VICTIM, AND YOUR KILLER WOULD LIVE ON!
If you could come back to life for 10 minutes after being murdered, and be given the choice of having your killer live or die, which would you choose? That killer let out on parole could kill your brother or sister, mother or father!

If thats the way you feel good for you. It is a completely natural human reaction. When I say human I mean of the flesh. But it is completely against the teachings of christ. you serve christ and his teachings not the teachings of the old testament.Vengence is the lords my friend
 
Judge said:
I am a real, born again Christian. I totally support the death penalty!!! The old testament teaches to kill murderers! If you toss away that, why don't we throw away the "Thou shalt not kill, steal, ect" part?!?!
If a government official came up to me, "Sir, here is a cold-blooded killer positively identified as the killer of an innocent man, would you shoot/flick the switch, If you don't execute him we''l let him go free, I would say "Yes!"

Criminials thrive on the indulgence of society's 'understanding'. Crime cannot be tolerated!

Of course Jesus wouldn't execute someone! He came to give salvation, not to judge us! But to be just, we should execute killers! It protects society. If a burgarler broke into my house, I would not hesitate to shoot him dead for breaking and entering!
Without the death penalty, We place of small price tag on YOUR LIFE!! YOU COULD BE THE NEXT DEAD VICTIM, AND YOUR KILLER WOULD LIVE ON!

I agree with the suggestion that some violent criminals deserve execution. Actually, I think a lot of people deserve far worse than current methods of execution deliver. The electric chair child rapists/murderers? No. I'm thinking more along the lines of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus necrotising fasciitis (flesh eating bacteria). If we are talking about just desserts.

That said, I am not a big fan of the death penalty. This is not because I see a moral/ethical issue. It is this: People are too stupid, emotional, and prejudiced to effectively make informed, logical, honest decisions regarding emotionally charged issues like rape and murder. God may have made us in his own image, but somebody dropped us on our collective heads along the way. If you execute somebody and discover that they were innocent . . . Oops. Well, too late now.

Finally, as an avid hunter and gun/bow enthusiast:gunsmilie, I advise against shooting somebody for B&E:gunner:unless you can show that you had just (legal) cause. . .however. . .Should you feel justified in using deadly force, a good ammunition choice is safety slugs TM. They are hard to find, and I don't know if they are legal in your area, but they are (or were) the projectile of choice for the US Air Marshalls. Designed to prevent overpenetration (they won't go through and kill your dog), they fragment extensively after entrance. (Dead men tell no lies.)

Take care. Use sound judgment. Defend the 2nd amendment.
 
It all depends if you believe in the Jesus portrayed in the New Testament, or if you believe in the new cool Jesus that likes to kill people.
 
Let me put this in a less angry and more scriptural manner.

By the way, I am not debeating whether you or I believe in the death penalty for killers, but whether the Bible endorses it.

“But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil” (Rom.13:4). The powers that be bear the sword to execute wrath on those that do evil. What do you think these powers are going to do with the sword? Are they going to slap someone on the wrist with it? No. They are going to “execute wrath” by executing someone. They are going to administer the death penalty.

God Himself established the death penalty long before the law was given to Moses. He told Noah, “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man” (Gen.9:5). This command has never been repealed. Not by the New Testament. Not by Paul. Not by Jesus Himself.

Apparently some Christians do not realize that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same. Jesus was not a prophet with new insights for living, He was God in the flesh--the same God who gave us the Ten Commandments, and who said, "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man" (Genesis 9:6).

This is not to be confused with the 6th commandment, which in the King James Version reads, "Thou shalt not kill." The proper translation of the Hebrew word is found in the New King James Version, which reads, "You shall not murder." Once again, a distinction needs to be made between "kill," "murder," and "execute," three very different terms.

There is a further problem with the understanding of the word, "forgiveness." Forgiveness means to "cease to feel resentment against." Forgiveness includes pardon for offenses, but I don't think that this is what Jesus intended. Instead, we are to cease to feel resentment against our offenders (hate the sin, not the sinner), but we are not to pardon, that is, to
release them from the legal penalties.

Some people say Jesus' teachings of love and forgiveness require us to abolish the death penalty. But do they really? If we followed this particular argument to its logical end, we would have to do away with all punishment. But no one suggests we should do that. The alternative is always life in prison, but should we put murderers in prison for the rest of their lives? "But Jesus would forgive." Should we put them in prison for twenty years? "But Jesus would forgive." Should we put them in prison for a week? "But Jesus would forgive." The problem comes from applying interpersonal matters with matters between citizen and state.


By the way, everyone screams, "WHAT ABOUT THE WOMAN CAUGHT IN ADULTERY?!" This is my answer. It was a trick question meant by the pharisees to hurt Jesus. If he told them to execute her, he would be a cruel person. If he let her go, he would break the law. So he stooped, and wrote something on the ground. We are not told what. They asked him what he meant. He said let the guiltless one throw the first rock, because if you have looked on a woman and lusted after her, you have committed adultery with her already in your heart. He shamed them into letting her go, because the law said both the man and woman in adultery should be killed. He did not accuse, because that was not his job at that coming. She had no accusers, no one to have her executed. So he let her go.

And that vengeance its the lords means person to person, not person to government.

Let grace be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness... Isa. 26:10

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets... Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great..." Mat. 5:17-19

Thats all for today, class. Court adjourned.
 
Could someone post a reply? Whether yay or nay to what I said?
 
What is in the Old Testament is rather inconsequential after the Sermon on the Mount (assuming you believe in the New Testament). The Sermon on the Mount redefined the rules, it's quite clear in Matthew what we should do.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
What is in the Old Testament is rather inconsequential after the Sermon on the Mount (assuming you believe in the New Testament). The Sermon on the Mount redefined the rules, it's quite clear in Matthew what we should do.

A. What are you saying?

B. What scripture says to not execute murderers?
 
Judge said:
A. What are you saying?

B. What scripture says to not execute murderers?

Post # 54

It's extremely interesting, Jesus teaches that we should not retaliate:


Matt 5
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.


And he goes on to say that we should love our enemies:


Matt 5
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


And later that we should forgive all:

Matt 6
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Those who believe in Jesus Christ, and actually know his teachings, it seems, couldn't support Capital Punishment by definition.

The Bible has two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Assuming you believe in the Old Testament, and not the New Testament, then the Bible does support capital punishment.

But if you believe in the New Testament (like a Christian) then you would believe in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew were Jesus said all of these things. Don't Judge others, Turn the other cheek, Love your enemies, and Forgive everyone. It's obviously very anti-retaliation, and about feelings rather than actions. But most "Christians" choose to ignore this (the words of Christ) to justify certain activities that let them indulge in carnal behaviors.
 
-Demosthenes- said:
Post # 54



The Bible has two parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Assuming you believe in the Old Testament, and not the New Testament, then the Bible does support capital punishment.

But if you believe in the New Testament (like a Christian) then you would believe in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew were Jesus said all of these things. Don't Judge others, Turn the other cheek, Love your enemies, and Forgive everyone. It's obviously very anti-retaliation, and about feelings rather than actions. But most "Christians" choose to ignore this (the words of Christ) to justify certain activities that let them indulge in carnal behaviors.


The verses instruct individual behavior not that of society and not that of the justice system.Forgiveness does not equal the justice system letting someone off scott free.
 
James Rage said:
The verses instruct individual behavior not that of society and not that of the justice system.Forgiveness does not equal the justice system letting someone off scott free.

Not killing him is not equatable to letting him off "scott" free.

Strawman.
 
jamesrage said:
The verses instruct individual behavior not that of society and not that of the justice system.Forgiveness does not equal the justice system letting someone off scott free.

Yes, and I never said that the government shouldn't enforce capital punishment if they feel that is the right punishment. I just feel that Christians shouldn't believe in it and not say that God wanted it. Jesus was God and he did not endorse execution of others and therefore I do not believe in it. I mean maybe If I were Jewish and studied the Old Testament than maybe. Because you use eye for an eye to endorse it but then you tell me Jesus was talking about our personal actions not societys actions. Well our actions contribute to societies actions. Judge is right if you read parts of the Bible it does endorse capital punishment which really means the men of that time period endorsed it. Jesus did not endorse it. Maybe that was because he wasn't an ordinary man. Jesus was a product of when capital punishment goes wrong. Although I am thankful he died for me.
 
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