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Christians Against the Death Penalty

UtahBill

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NewAgeTexDem said:
It is our decision to make, thats why were under a republic not a Caesar;). We have a voice in our country that can shape its politcal actions, and if we voice opinions agianst the teachings of christianity while claiming to be christians we are nothing but hypocrits.
A Christian who is against the death penalty but kills in war is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who judges and condemns others for being different while Jesus tells us to Judge Not, is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who trys to force his beliefs on others even tho God has given us free agency to decide for ourselves, and be punished or rewarded accordingly, is already a hypocrite.
Most Christians are already hypocrites even if at a low level. Many, many, many are blatant hypocrites. So that argument is invalid.
 

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UtahBill said:
A Christian who is against the death penalty but kills in war is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who judges and condemns others for being different while Jesus tells us to Judge Not, is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who trys to force his beliefs on others even tho God has given us free agency to decide for ourselves, and be punished or rewarded accordingly, is already a hypocrite.
Most Christians are already hypocrites even if at a low level. Many, many, many are blatant hypocrites. So that argument is invalid.


Actually you are right, but just because most do it does not invalidate the argument. We should strive to practice what we preach and believe. I strive to do what is right according to the teaching's of Jesus in every area of my life.
 
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NewAgeTexDem said:
Actually you are right, but just because most do it does not invalidate the argument. We should strive to practice what we preach and believe. I strive to do what is right according to the teaching's of Jesus in every area of my life.

I'll never understand people who try to be "Christ-like." It simply is not possible so why try? There is only 1 man who, supposedly, never sinned and never will sin which was Jesus. You can try to do good without trying to emulate the behavior of a unique man.
 

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Napoleon's Nightingale said:
I'll never understand people who try to be "Christ-like." It simply is not possible so why try? There is only 1 man who, supposedly, never sinned and never will sin which was Jesus. You can try to do good without trying to emulate the behavior of a unique man.


You're just mad that sodomy is a sin.
 

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UtahBill said:
A Christian who is against the death penalty but kills in war is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who judges and condemns others for being different while Jesus tells us to Judge Not, is already a hypocrite.
A Christian who trys to force his beliefs on others even tho God has given us free agency to decide for ourselves, and be punished or rewarded accordingly, is already a hypocrite.
Most Christians are already hypocrites even if at a low level. Many, many, many are blatant hypocrites. So that argument is invalid.

Yes, Christianity is not Christ like at all, you are right, they are hypocrits, but they are no better than the victim if they are in charge of frying someone.
 

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UtahBill said:
Most Christians are already hypocrites even if at a low level. Many, many, many are blatant hypocrites.

And have you taken a survey of the millions of Christians in the world to find this out?

Many people mistake Christians as being, "Self righteous" and think they claim to be perfect. We don't. We're fallible human beings and we're sinners just like everyone else. But that doesn't mean we're, "hypocrites".
 

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UtahBill said:
Most Christians are already hypocrites even if at a low level. Many, many, many are blatant hypocrites. So that argument is invalid.

Man, that's such a dumb ass thing to say.

So are Hindus, so are Muslims, so are athiests, so is everyone that ever drew breath. I'm willing to bet that even you, as "high and mighty" as you are, are also a hypocrit.
 

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GySgt said:
Man, that's such a dumb ass thing to say.

So are Hindus, so are Muslims, so are athiests, so is everyone that ever drew breath. I'm willing to bet that even you, as "high and mighty" as you are, are also a hypocrit.

Speaking of dumbass, you describe yourself. Read the title of the post, what does it say? We were not talking about Hindu, Muslim, etc.
But I will include them if you like.
Or are you feeling defensive?
I have been around long enough to see hypocrisy everywhere, and try to live my life in a way that I can avoid being labeled with the term. Not that I perfect, or high and mighty, as you think. I could be, compared to you. You don't know, and neither do I. We are all inconsistent in many ways.
The churches my parents took me to were full of them. They preach the love of Christ to the kids in Sunday School, but put down people of color, sexual orientation, differing religious views, etc. during the sermons.
BTW, I have heard it said many times that the correct translation is "thou shalt not murder", instead of "kill". God directed his people to kill many times over, if you believe that the OT is true and correct. I like to believe that God never told the Jews to kill non-Jews, but that the Jews invented those stories to justify doing what they knew was wrong. They were envious of others, and saw that the obvious shortcut to having the same success was to steal what others have rather than build that life for themselves. Human nature is pretty much the same as 2000 years ago. Christianity has not improved us very much, considering the time span.:(
 

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UtahBill said:
Speaking of dumbass, you describe yourself. Read the title of the post, what does it say? We were not talking about Hindu, Muslim, etc.
But I will include them if you like.
Or are you feeling defensive?
I have been around long enough to see hypocrisy everywhere, and try to live my life in a way that I can avoid being labeled with the term. Not that I perfect, or high and mighty, as you think. I could be, compared to you. You don't know, and neither do I. We are all inconsistent in many ways.
The churches my parents took me to were full of them. They preach the love of Christ to the kids in Sunday School, but put down people of color, sexual orientation, differing religious views, etc. during the sermons.
BTW, I have heard it said many times that the correct translation is "thou shalt not murder", instead of "kill". God directed his people to kill many times over, if you believe that the OT is true and correct. I like to believe that God never told the Jews to kill non-Jews, but that the Jews invented those stories to justify doing what they knew was wrong. They were envious of others, and saw that the obvious shortcut to having the same success was to steal what others have rather than build that life for themselves. Human nature is pretty much the same as 2000 years ago. Christianity has not improved us very much, considering the time span.:(

Bill, don't try to say that because of your age you have a better understanding of human nature than the rest of us because that's not true. Debating the Bible is really a whole other thread...but you simply can't say that Christians are any more hypocritical than anyone else.
 

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George_Washington said:
Bill, don't try to say that because of your age you have a better understanding of human nature than the rest of us because that's not true. Debating the Bible is really a whole other thread...but you simply can't say that Christians are any more hypocritical than anyone else.
Age and experience are good teachers, as you will discover some day. I have had a lot of wrong ideas knocked out of my head, and hopefully you will as well. That is how you know you are learning, when you start seeing that the other side of an issue has some validity.
Go back and read, read, read, my posts. I did not say that Christians are more hypocritical than other religions. GySgt tried to imply that, and wrongly so. Besides, how would I know? Like most of us here, our life experience is with Christians, and from my upbringing in the Baptist Bible Belt of Southeast Texas during the 60's, PLENTY of they were blindly and stupidly hypocritical in their daily lives. Progress has been made, but it still exists. I know people who still use the N word, the J word, etc. and not in a complimentary manner.
Ignorance and bigotry will always be a part of any culture, due to lack of education on our part.
And back to the issue of a death penalty, God did it, the ancient Jews did it, other cultures of the time, and since, did it, but where does God, or Jesus, say that government does not have the right to put to death our most violent and hienous criminals?
 

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UtahBill said:
And back to the issue of a death penalty, God did it, the ancient Jews did it, other cultures of the time, and since, did it, but where does God, or Jesus, say that government does not have the right to put to death our most violent and hienous criminals?

About what you said about age bringing experience and wisdom, I agree. I realize you're much older than me (I'm in my twenties) and I do respect you for that, as I respect all of my elders.

But regarding the dealth penalty...the Bible doesn't argue the dealth penalty one way or another to the best of my knowledge. I just think if you are cruel enough to take someone's life than you deserve to have yours taken in return.
 

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George_Washington said:
About what you said about age bringing experience and wisdom, I agree. I realize you're much older than me (I'm in my twenties) and I do respect you for that, as I respect all of my elders.

But regarding the dealth penalty...the Bible doesn't argue the dealth penalty one way or another to the best of my knowledge. I just think if you are cruel enough to take someone's life than you deserve to have yours taken in return.
It weighs in on the death penalty a lot more than it does on abortion and gay marriage combined, it even got its own commandment!
 

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George_Washington said:
About what you said about age bringing experience and wisdom, I agree. I realize you're much older than me (I'm in my twenties) and I do respect you for that, as I respect all of my elders.

But regarding the dealth penalty...the Bible doesn't argue the dealth penalty one way or another to the best of my knowledge. I just think if you are cruel enough to take someone's life than you deserve to have yours taken in return.

Two wrongs make a right and an eye for eye makes us all able to see everything eh?
 

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TimmyBoy said:
Two wrongs make a right and an eye for eye makes us all able to see everything eh?
There is a joke about the difference between a conservative and a liberal. The punch line is that a liberal is a conservative that hasn't been mugged yet.
When someone you love is murdered, you may have to wrestle with your views a bit come sentencing time for the perpetrator.
A comment someone made to me once when I said "it takes all kinds". He said, "it doesn't take all kinds, we just have all kinds".
As far as two wrongs making a right, I don't see putting to death a cold blooded murderer as a wrong. He is one of the "kinds" that we do not need.
God is the higher power than government, but God stopped talking to us through prophets a long time ago. So we are left with the government making these decisions for us.
I left out something from the post where I said that God and the Jews routinely killed others in the OT. The early Christians killed lots of Jews, simply as revenge for Jews killing Christians. The Catholic Church routinely killed "heretics", witches?, and protestants, and Jews. Later on when Protestants got the upper hand, they killed Catholics. Even today we have people being killed in the name of religion, in Ireland, the middle east, north Africa, Pakistan, India, and so on. We even have evangelists suggesting we take out the leaders of other countries.
It is all wrong, but there you have it. For all the years that Christianity has been with us, we still tend to choose the when and where and how we want to obey the commandments. So the sad fact is that hypocrisy will likely always be with us.:confused:
 

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UtahBill said:
There is a joke about the difference between a conservative and a liberal. The punch line is that a liberal is a conservative that hasn't been mugged yet.
When someone you love is murdered, you may have to wrestle with your views a bit come sentencing time for the perpetrator.
A comment someone made to me once when I said "it takes all kinds". He said, "it doesn't take all kinds, we just have all kinds".
As far as two wrongs making a right, I don't see putting to death a cold blooded murderer as a wrong. He is one of the "kinds" that we do not need.
God is the higher power than government, but God stopped talking to us through prophets a long time ago. So we are left with the government making these decisions for us.
I left out something from the post where I said that God and the Jews routinely killed others in the OT. The early Christians killed lots of Jews, simply as revenge for Jews killing Christians. The Catholic Church routinely killed "heretics", witches?, and protestants, and Jews. Later on when Protestants got the upper hand, they killed Catholics. Even today we have people being killed in the name of religion, in Ireland, the middle east, north Africa, Pakistan, India, and so on. We even have evangelists suggesting we take out the leaders of other countries.
It is all wrong, but there you have it. For all the years that Christianity has been with us, we still tend to choose the when and where and how we want to obey the commandments. So the sad fact is that hypocrisy will likely always be with us.:confused:

I personally oppose the death penalty based on moral grounds. I also oppose abortion based on these same moral grounds. I am not a fan of war either, based on these moral grounds. I favor life and view life as a gift. Not that I am very religious myself. But I do have some sense of morals about me. My opposition to abortion would be considered conservative, yet my opposition to the death penalty would be considered liberal.
 

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TimmyBoy said:
I personally oppose the death penalty based on moral grounds. I also oppose abortion based on these same moral grounds. I am not a fan of war either, based on these moral grounds. I favor life and view life as a gift. Not that I am very religious myself. But I do have some sense of morals about me. My opposition to abortion would be considered conservative, yet my opposition to the death penalty would be considered liberal.
The fiscal conservative in me opposes the death penalty, as it is cheaper to keep them, house them, feed them, etc. than to kill them. But, it is not my call, except to vote on the issue should I get the chance. Until then, it is our government's decision to make.
I think abortion is downright evil if it is done as a method of birth control, but beyond that I think it is between the woman and God. It is her body, her life, her child, and hers to answer in the hereafter.
No child should be unwanted. I was, so I know what it is like. And the taxpayer should not have to pony up for those who are too lazy or stupid to use birth control. If it was up to me, we would have to get a license to have a child. If you believe the "it takes a village to raise a child" idea, then the village should have a choice on who gets to have kids. We all know people who would be denied permission.:(
 

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UtahBill said:
There is a joke about the difference between a conservative and a liberal. The punch line is that a liberal is a conservative that hasn't been mugged yet.
When someone you love is murdered, you may have to wrestle with your views a bit come sentencing time for the perpetrator.
A comment someone made to me once when I said "it takes all kinds". He said, "it doesn't take all kinds, we just have all kinds".
As far as two wrongs making a right, I don't see putting to death a cold blooded murderer as a wrong. He is one of the "kinds" that we do not need.
God is the higher power than government, but God stopped talking to us through prophets a long time ago. So we are left with the government making these decisions for us.
I left out something from the post where I said that God and the Jews routinely killed others in the OT. The early Christians killed lots of Jews, simply as revenge for Jews killing Christians. The Catholic Church routinely killed "heretics", witches?, and protestants, and Jews. Later on when Protestants got the upper hand, they killed Catholics. Even today we have people being killed in the name of religion, in Ireland, the middle east, north Africa, Pakistan, India, and so on. We even have evangelists suggesting we take out the leaders of other countries.
It is all wrong, but there you have it. For all the years that Christianity has been with us, we still tend to choose the when and where and how we want to obey the commandments. So the sad fact is that hypocrisy will likely always be with us.:confused:

I see the merit in this, although I disagree with certain aspects of what you said (but they were issues of opinion, so whatever)
As a christian I can admit that sometimes it's hard to seperate my morals from those I get from my faith, and which causes which (am I a christian because I believe in the importance in unending love and forgiveness, or do I believe in unending love and forgiveness because I'm a christian, etc.)
But regardless of your religion, most people can agree that Jesus was a very wise man who said a lot of really great stuff, and helped put a lot into perspective. And I take what he said for quite a lot, even if it has been almost 2000 years since he died. And he said "You have been taught an eye for an eye, but I teach you something different", and he said "He who is without sin cast the first stone", both of which I think hold a lot of merit outside of the religion, and I think I'd agree with them even if I wasn't a christian.
But let's not forget that even without the moral argument about the death penalty, there is also a pretty logical argument against it too, including that since our justice system is known to be flawed, wouldn't it be better to keep these people alive so we could right the wrong, cause you can let someone out of jail, you can't bring them back from the dead, it's been shown not to deter crime, and it's more expensive that keeping them in jail for life.
 

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UtahBill said:
The fiscal conservative in me opposes the death penalty, as it is cheaper to keep them, house them, feed them, etc. than to kill them. But, it is not my call, except to vote on the issue should I get the chance. Until then, it is our government's decision to make.
I think abortion is downright evil if it is done as a method of birth control, but beyond that I think it is between the woman and God. It is her body, her life, her child, and hers to answer in the hereafter.
No child should be unwanted. I was, so I know what it is like. And the taxpayer should not have to pony up for those who are too lazy or stupid to use birth control. If it was up to me, we would have to get a license to have a child. If you believe the "it takes a village to raise a child" idea, then the village should have a choice on who gets to have kids. We all know people who would be denied permission.:(

Yeah, that's the truth. But for the most part, I am opposed to abortion and the death penalty on moral grounds.
 

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galenrox said:
But let's not forget that even without the moral argument about the death penalty, there is also a pretty logical argument against it too, including that since our justice system is known to be flawed, wouldn't it be better to keep these people alive so we could right the wrong, cause you can let someone out of jail, you can't bring them back from the dead, it's been shown not to deter crime, and it's more expensive that keeping them in jail for life.
Yes, good point, especially when we have prosecutors who bend the law to up their conviction rate. I think that when a cop, prosecutor, professional witness, etc. wrongfully aids in the conviction of an innocent person, they should have to serve the same time that the innocent person did.
 

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UtahBill said:
Yes, good point, especially when we have prosecutors who bend the law to up their conviction rate. I think that when a cop, prosecutor, professional witness, etc. wrongfully aids in the conviction of an innocent person, they should have to serve the same time that the innocent person did.

Ohh yeah, that kind of **** happens in the justice system. They will also scapegoat innocent people to prison, but do an excellent job of making them look guilty, to appease political pressure.
 

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UtahBill said:
Yes, good point, especially when we have prosecutors who bend the law to up their conviction rate. I think that when a cop, prosecutor, professional witness, etc. wrongfully aids in the conviction of an innocent person, they should have to serve the same time that the innocent person did.
I am 100% with you.
I also have problems with prosecutors being rewarded based on rate of convictions, I think that more should be placed on accuracy, so thus anyone who is wrongly convicted will be held against you.
But yeah, I love that idea. Or also if such is found in a capital trial, then everyone involved in the conspiracy to wrongly convict should be tried for attempted murder.
 

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UtahBill said:
Speaking of dumbass, you describe yourself. Read the title of the post, what does it say? We were not talking about Hindu, Muslim, etc.
But I will include them if you like.
Or are you feeling defensive?
I have been around long enough to see hypocrisy everywhere, and try to live my life in a way that I can avoid being labeled with the term. Not that I perfect, or high and mighty, as you think. I could be, compared to you. You don't know, and neither do I. We are all inconsistent in many ways.
The churches my parents took me to were full of them. They preach the love of Christ to the kids in Sunday School, but put down people of color, sexual orientation, differing religious views, etc. during the sermons.
BTW, I have heard it said many times that the correct translation is "thou shalt not murder", instead of "kill". God directed his people to kill many times over, if you believe that the OT is true and correct. I like to believe that God never told the Jews to kill non-Jews, but that the Jews invented those stories to justify doing what they knew was wrong. They were envious of others, and saw that the obvious shortcut to having the same success was to steal what others have rather than build that life for themselves. Human nature is pretty much the same as 2000 years ago. Christianity has not improved us very much, considering the time span.:(


Bwahahahah. How sensitive. It would seem to me that someone else is the one with the "issues."
 

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I am a Christian and have always opposed the death penalty; I do not believe that people have the right to decide when someone ought to die. The death penalty denies the ability of people to change, and assumes that a person who commits a crime warrranting it will always be a criminal and has no potential to turn their life around.

Further, the death penalty is pointless, except as a way of reducing prison costs. I happen to value lives more than money. It cannot serve as an effective deterrent, because people do not commit crimes expecting to be caught and convicted. A criminal will almost always believe that either 1.) they can't be caught or 2.) they won't be convincted. A potential sentence has no effect on a person's choice to commit a crime if they don't believe they will ever have to serve it.
 

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cmitch06 said:
Any Christian who bases their faith on what Jesus Christ said and not what men have said can not support the death penalty. Jesus never condoned capital punishment. Ex: 1. "He who is without sin cast the first stone"
2. "You have been told and eye for and eye and a tooth for a
tooth but I will tell you different"
3. " Turn the other cheek"

Wanting to kill one who has murdered is a completely natural feeling. A feeling of the flesh which as Christians we should stray away from. Jesus rebuked the teachings of the Pharisees b/c they had it all wrong. I am assured he would rebuke holy men of today for getting some stuff wrong to. We are humans though and thats what we do is get stuff wrong sometimes. Live your life by how Jesus lived his. Not by how your preacher says you should.

This was a command against personal vengenece not a command against the death penalty. The bible supports the death penalty
 
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