Christianity vs. Transgender Identity

[JRTurner]

Then don't believe me. I said my position as clearly as I can to you

That's sad.

It can not possibly be clearer

Yes, it can.

If you don't believe it there is nothing I can do about that

Yes, you can.

You're not a helpless victim and if you would take the assist when offered, you'd be in a better position.

 

[vegas giants]

That's sad.

Yes, it can.

Yes, you can.

You're not a helpless victim and if you would take the assist when offered, you'd be in a better position.

OK. Thanks for your opinion

 

[jnug]

I fail to see how christianity has anything to do with trans people.

At least legally and constitutionally.

The constitution clearly gives everyone religious freedom and is supposed to keep the government separate from religion but that part has been ignored since the reagan years.

Personally, I am so sick and tired of christians forcing their religion on the whole nation.

I wish there was a way to put a stop to it.

Well I have made the case in this forum that those who attack transgenderism and those who try to normalize it in a sense are both way way out over their skis. If I had my way, I would freeze the entire discussion until science could tell us more about it. I would set a more logical standard for transgenderism in the LEGAL DOMAIN than just allowing somebody to raise their hand and claim it for one thing.

That said, as to religion, the simple fact of it is that more people have been slaughtered, mutilated, destroyed, wiped out, tortured and literally eliminated in the name of organized religion than any other single factor including geopolitical exigency. We have endured everything from Muslim sects destroying each other to Christian sects destroying each other to Muslims destroying Christians, Christians destroying Muslims and just about everybody taking a shot at the Jews at one time or another. In fact many of the geopolitical disasters we think of as Nationalistic have at their heart some sort of Religious kerfuffle or another. That does not even account for Pagans, those that in the main practice polytheism, so named because they have the temerity to worship multiple "false gods". In other words, their great religious distinction is worshiping multiple gods as opposed to one god. Sorry, I just don't view that as much of a distinction. It is all mystical nonsense to me.....About as worthy of my support as VooDoo.

Buddiism is mostly what is practiced in China and for the most part Buddists don't believe in a god. In other words they shun the mysticism surrounding either worship of a single god or multiple gods, some deity not of this earth. That has not apparently spared the Uyghurs who are Muslims and thus seen as a threat to Communist China which suggests that Communism in China is something of a religion or at the least bears resemblance to a religion.

So here are a couple of things to consider:
1) The brutal history of organized religion in the world. The main tool of destruction one religion to another or one sect of one religion to another being literally as uncomplicated as herding people into a defined ares, surrounding them and then systematically destroying them. See the destruction of the Armenian Christians by Ottoman Turks (Muslims) for an example.
2) Our own challenges now in Christians trying to shove their Christian doctrine and related standards down citizens throats all under the guise of American Patriotism denying one or two main pillars of the Republic in the process. Those are freedom to practice the religion of your choice including no religion whatsoever and separation of church and state.

Watch out folks....you are going to hear lots more about item 2 above and Christianity representing some sort of National religion for as long as Tim Scott remains a candidate for the Presidency.

 

[Lisa]

Well I have made the case in this forum that those who attack transgenderism and those who try to normalize it in a sense are both way way out over their skis. If I had my way, I would freeze the entire discussion until science could tell us more about it. I would set a more logical standard for transgenderism in the LEGAL DOMAIN than just allowing somebody to raise their hand and claim it for one thing.

Medical science has already spoken on the issue and the science is very clear. It has been for the past 50 years, back to when the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care were conceived.
Maybe you should read the DSM-5 entry at 302.85 before you make multiple statements that are not true. There is a lot more to a diagnosis of transgender or gender dysphoria than any patient, teen or adult, just raising their hand and saying that they feel like their gender identity and biologist sex are incongruent. The possibly of informed consent, that is not open to 18 and under, but that is not encouraged in adults. Informed consent treatment model was created to get around conservaive gatekeepers and supporters of conversion therapy, that have been a problem in the past, but it has much higher risk than the traditional path of getting a diagnosis from a trained and experienced therapist or psychiatrist before beginning HRT.

You and others make it sound like a 16 year old teen can walk into a Drs office and walk out with a script for Spiro' and estradiol 30 minutes later. That is not how it happens.

Symptoms of Gender Dysphoria​

DSM-5 states that the initial condition for the identification of gender dysphoria in both adults and teenagers is a noticeable incongruence between the gender the patient believes they are, and what society perceives them to be. This disparity should be ongoing for at least 6 months and should consist of 2 or more of the subsequent criteria (American Psychiatric Association, 2013):

• Noticeable incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves are, and what their classified gender assignment
• An intense need to do away with his or her primary or secondary sex features (or, in the case of young teenagers, to avert the maturity of the likely secondary features)
• An intense desire to have the primary or secondary sex features of the other gender
• A deep desire to transform into another gender
• A profound need for society to treat them as another gender
• A powerful assurance of having the characteristic feelings and responses of the other gender
• The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress, or affects the individual significantly socially, at work, and in other import areas of life.

Epidemiology​

The DSM-5 indicates that the prevalence of gender dysphoria is 0.005-0.014% for adult born as males, whereas it is 0.002-0.003% for adult born as females (American Psychiatric Publishing, 2013). Among children, it is higher in those born as boys, where it is 2-4.5 times greater than those born as girls. Among teenagers, there is no real difference, between males and females.

Prognosis​

Current case reports offer no evidence that psychotherapy offers total and long-standing about face of cross-gender identity. It is important to state that all transsexuals are not the same, and thus are not part of a uniform group. Early diagnosis and treatment decreases the chance for individuals to suffer depression, emotional agony, and to attempt suicide. It is equally significant to state that gender dysphoria is not identical to homosexuality. Each individual goes through a unique change, some may want a short-term change, and be content with cross-dressing, while others may desire a complete change, and seek gender assignment surgery (Royal College of Psychiatrists, 2013). Those who are born having ambiguous genitalia may meet the criteria for the identification of gender dysphoria.

Gender Dysphoria DSM-5 302.85 (F64.9) - Therapedia

www.theravive.com

 

[vegas giants]

Well I have made the case in this forum that those who attack transgenderism and those who try to normalize it in a sense are both way way out over their skis. If I had my way, I would freeze the entire discussion until science could tell us more about it. I would set a more logical standard for transgenderism in the LEGAL DOMAIN than just allowing somebody to raise their hand and claim it for one thing.

That said, as to religion, the simple fact of it is that more people have been slaughtered, mutilated, destroyed, wiped out, tortured and literally eliminated in the name of organized religion than any other single factor including geopolitical exigency. We have endured everything from Muslim sects destroying each other to Christian sects destroying each other to Muslims destroying Christians, Christians destroying Muslims and just about everybody taking a shot at the Jews at one time or another. In fact many of the geopolitical disasters we think of as Nationalistic have at their heart some sort of Religious kerfuffle or another. That does not even account for Pagans, those that in the main practice polytheism, so named because they have the temerity to worship multiple "false gods". In other words, their great religious distinction is worshiping multiple gods as opposed to one god. Sorry, I just don't view that as much of a distinction. It is all mystical nonsense to me.....About as worthy of my support as VooDoo.

Buddiism is mostly what is practiced in China and for the most part Buddists don't believe in a god. In other words they shun the mysticism surrounding either worship of a single god or multiple gods, some deity not of this earth. That has not apparently spared the Uyghurs who are Muslims and thus seen as a threat to Communist China which suggests that Communism in China is something of a religion or at the least bears resemblance to a religion.

So here are a couple of things to consider:
1) The brutal history of organized religion in the world. The main tool of destruction one religion to another or one sect of one religion to another being literally as uncomplicated as herding people into a defined ares, surrounding them and then systematically destroying them. See the destruction of the Armenian Christians by Ottoman Turks (Muslims) for an example.
2) Our own challenges now in Christians trying to shove their Christian doctrine and related standards down citizens throats all under the guise of American Patriotism denying one or two main pillars of the Republic in the process. Those are freedom to practice the religion of your choice including no religion whatsoever and separation of church and state.

Watch out folks....you are going to hear lots more about item 2 above and Christianity representing some sort of National religion for as long as Tim Scott remains a candidate for the Presidency.

I have no problem with someone raising their hand and saying they are trans. But if they want meds or surgery they better be over 18

 

[element94]

I have no problem with someone raising their hand and saying they are trans. But if they want meds or surgery they better be over 18

Can you meet us a little lower, say the confederate marriage age, what's it, 12?

 

[vegas giants]

Can you meet us a little lower, say the confederate marriage age, what's it, 12?

No. Change that too. It's ridiculous

 

[jnug]

Medical science has already spoken on the issue and the science is very clear. It has been for the past 50 years, back to when the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care were conceived.
Maybe you should read the DSM-5 entry at 302.85 before you make multiple statements that are not true. There is a lot more to a diagnosis of transgender or gender dysphoria than any patient, teen or adult, just raising their hand and saying that they feel like their gender identity and biologist sex are incongruent. The possibly of informed consent, that is not open to 18 and under, but that is not encouraged in adults. Informed consent treatment model was created to get around conservaive gatekeepers and supporters of conversion therapy, that have been a problem in the past, but it has much higher risk than the traditional path of getting a diagnosis from a trained and experienced therapist or psychiatrist before beginning HRT.

You and others make it sound like a 16 year old teen can walk into a Drs office and walk out with a script for Spiro' and estradiol 30 minutes later. That is not how it happens.

Gender Dysphoria DSM-5 302.85 (F64.9) - Therapedia

www.theravive.com

I have no issues with medical treatments, remedies, hormonal suplicments, what have you regarding Gender Dysphoria. As I stated, my issue is the "Legal" standards that have sprung from them, how the Courts treat Transgenderism which create this whole mess of concerns about which bathroom people use and every other damned thing witch ultimately result in backlash in the form of more "laws" so poorly written that they would appear to be criminalizing Crossdressing of all things.

Myself, I could care less about which bathroom people use. I would not enter a public ladies room. But that is me and nobody can bodily pick me up and force me into a public ladies room. But if ladies entered a public men's room I was in, I would not care in the least. If I have no issues with ladies being in a public men's room I happen to be in or am about to go in clearly then whomever else is in there or goes in there is not an issue for me. Further, I could give a damn who chooses to wear a dress and who chooses to wear boxer shorts and pants with zippers and a fly.

 

[Lisa]

I have no issues with medical treatments, remedies, hormonal suplicments, what have you regarding Gender Dysphoria. As I stated, my issue is the "Legal" standards that have sprung from them, how the Courts treat Transgenderism which create this whole mess of concerns about which bathroom people use and every other damned thing witch ultimately result in backlash in the form of more "laws" so poorly written that they would appear to be criminalizing Crossdressing of all things.

Those were never a problem until the GOP created them in 2016 as a way of manufactuiring outrage for their mindless followers. What bathrooms do you think trans people have been using for the past 50 years, without an issue? The republican party is the problem.

Myself, I could care less about which bathroom people use. I would not enter a public ladies room. But that is me and nobody can bodily pick me up and force me into a public ladies room. But if ladies entered a public men's room I was in, I would not care in the least. If I have no issues with ladies being in a public men's room I happen to be in or am about to go in clearly then whomever else is in there or goes in there is not an issue for me. Further, I could give a damn who chooses to wear a dress and who chooses to wear boxer shorts and pants with zippers and a fly.

 

[DCCougar]

It's not that important to me. It's a scientific curiosity

Ah, well then you ought to read up on Stephen Jay Gould. I can't find the relevant essay at the moment, but there is this:

Gould informs us that in mammal embryos, it is several weeks before the proto-sex organs differentiate into male or female. Male hormones, if present in quantity at this developmental stage, cause the embryonic genitalia to become male; without them, female sex organs develop.

And, of course, it doesn't always happen in such definite terms.

 

[vegas giants]

Ah, well then you ought to read up on Stephen Jay Gould. I can't find the relevant essay at the moment, but there is this:

And, of course, it doesn't always happen in such definite terms.

I'm sure that's quite interesting

 

[jnug]

Those were never a problem until the GOP created them in 2016 as a way of manufactuiring outrage for their mindless followers. What bathrooms do you think trans people have been using for the past 50 years, without an issue? The republican party is the problem.

IMO we will need tighter LEGAL definitions in terms of either state laws regarding Transgenderism or National Legal standards of merit. I have lost hope regarding additions to the Civil Rights Act that would add tighter Legal definitions Nationally. I suspect if any effort was made on a National Level to either use the Civil Rights Act as a means to tighten LEGAL definitions or write all new legislation given the general sentiments of the country at present, things would end up worse for Transgenders than they are now.

One effect from the loose legal standards we have now is that it has become as you correctly note, a political issue. I see that as a losing battle for Transgenders. Personally I assert that they should be protected but that issues like who provides "counseling" to whom and under what circumstances, what is or is not taught in public schools, who participates in what sports and who goes into which bathrooms and even who wears what for clothing will remain political footballs.

I don't see Transgenders themselves having the political muscle to win those political battles. I suspect that what status they have achieved even in states that protect them are not a result of people in those states actually caring to protect them but that those people simply did not care that much one way or the other. If anything they just stuffed Transgenderism under the whole panoply of freedoms they think we deserve to have in this country while not giving a wit about the actual legal definition of the term, what counts in the courts. I don't it likely that many considered the how vulnerable Transgenders would still be.

If the LGB of LGBTQ put their weight fully behind the T and the Q, that would make a difference IMO and might provide Transgenders with enough political muscle to win political battles. This is still a country that for whatever reason STILL wants to deny how many LGB's there are in this country and how high those numbers have always been as a percentage of the population. I suspect it would not be hard to get heterosexual Americans in large numbers to literally faint at the numbers especially if everybody was out of the closet.

This is still a country that believes homosexuals can be groomed to be homosexuals. I don't myself think so. I would contend that the majority of heterosexuals had some instances when they questioned or maybe even doubted their heterosexuality at some point during their adolescence if not earlier. My view of it is that anybody that does not acknowledge that is simply not very self aware or simply afraid of the truth. Hormones are strange things that can bend and twist a person in a whole bunch of different directions for a time.

I would even contend that Catholic Priests disposed to sexual contact with young boys are the best examples of "groomers" that we have and even they are IMO not all that successful at converting someone from heterosexuality to homosexuality or bi-sexuality. More often than not again IMO they just leave young boys feeling guilty, sometimes for a lifetime.

 

[Seth]

For it is written

Deuteronomy 22:5

5 “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for all who do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Yeah that was back in the day before femenin hygiene products were a real thing so wearing women's clothing meant getting menstrual blood on yourself.

If a man goes to Walmart, buys a dress and puts it on, that is not what Deuteronomy is talking about.

If a man borrows a woman's dress that has menstrual blood stains on it, that's what Deuteronomy is talking about.

 

[Seth]

Do you have a single source that states that being trans/NB is a conscious choice that someone makes.

I can google up a link on break but there was a guy in the news recently who 'identified' as a woman immediately before joining a women's poker tournament. He absolutely dominated the tabe, took his prize money and immediately 'identified' as a man on the way out.

Tell me that's not a choice

 

[Lisa]

I can google up a link on break but there was a guy in the news recently who 'identified' as a woman immediately before joining a women's poker tournament. He absolutely dominated the tabe, took his prize money and immediately 'identified' as a man on the way out.

Tell me that's not a choice

He was a fraud. He should be banned from the game.

 

[Seth]

He was a fraud.

How do we tell a fraud from a real trans?

Suppose we had a test, you could pee on a strip and it would tell you if you're trans, like like a pregnancy test. Do you want trans people to have to carry proof of their medical status with them like a covid passport?

 

[Lisa]

How do we tell a fraud from a real trans?

Suppose we had a test, you could pee on a strip and it would tell you if you're trans or like like a pregnancy test. Do you want trans people to have to carry proof of their medical status with them like a covid passport?

There used to be a thing called a "carry letter" than pre-op trans people had. It was a letter written by their DR or therapist stating that they were undergoing gender reassignment transition. I don't think it is still done.

 

[Seth]

There used to be a thing called a "carry letter" than pre-op trans people had. It was a letter written by their DR or therapist stating that they were undergoing gender reassignment transition. I don't think it is still done.

Who would have the proper authority to demand to see that letter without it being a violation of privacy?

 

[Lisa]

Who would have the proper authority to demand to see that letter without it being a violation of privacy?

Usually only cops, government, and medical personal.

 

[Seth]

Usually only cops, government, and medical personal.

But not poker tournament officials....

 

[Lisa]

But not poker tournament officials....

They could file a police report alleging fraud and then the investigating officers could demand to see her letter.

If she was truly trans then she would have a drivers license or other form of state-issued ID in her female name when she registered for the tournament.

 

[Nickyjo]

It should not be a problem to be both transgender and christian is the person actually follows the teachings of Jesus but many christian only look at the Bible as 1200 pages to cherry pick obscure passages that defend their bigotry and hatred of others as a way to make their discrimination both socially acceptable and legally permissible as they desperately try to hide behind the religious clauses of the First Amendment. Conservative or evangelical Christians have made hypocrisy one of the most important the sacraments.


Jesus was not a bigot or transphobe as Matthew 19:12 clearly illustrates.

Jesus was not a bigot, and it seems, neither is the current Pope.

 

[Lisa]

Jesus was not a bigot, and it seems, neither is the current Pope.

Pope Frankie is questionable. He likes to be a fence sitter on the issue of LGBT people.

This article is more than 3 months old

Pope Francis calls for end to anti-gay laws and LGBTQ+ welcome from church​

This article is more than 3 months old
LGBTQ+ advocates hail Pope’s rejection of sexual orientation as crime and call to bishops to resist anti-gay laws as ‘milestone’



Pope Francis has criticised laws that criminalise homosexuality as “unjust”, saying God loves all his children just as they are, and calling on Catholic bishops who support the laws to welcome LGBTQ+ people into the church.
“Being homosexual isn’t a crime,” Francis said on Tuesday in an interview.

Francis acknowledged that Catholic bishops in some parts of the world support laws that criminalise homosexuality or discriminate against LGBTQ+ people, and he himself referred to the issue in terms of “sin”. But he attributed such attitudes to cultural backgrounds and said bishops in particular need to undergo a process of change to recognize the dignity of everyone.

He also will not come out and mention gender identity.

Pope Francis calls for end to anti-gay laws and LGBTQ+ welcome

LGBTQ+ advocates hail Pope’s rejection of sexual orientation as crime and call to bishops to resist anti-gay laws as ‘milestone’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Nickyjo]

Pope Frankie is questionable. He likes to be a fence sitter on the issue of LGBT people.


He also will not come out and mention gender identity.

Pope Francis calls for end to anti-gay laws and LGBTQ+ welcome

LGBTQ+ advocates hail Pope’s rejection of sexual orientation as crime and call to bishops to resist anti-gay laws as ‘milestone’

www.theguardian.com

He’s pushing the envelope. Fine with me.

 

[Seth]

They could file a police report alleging fraud and then the investigation officers could demand to see her letter.

If I was the trans person I would tell the cop to go f themselves and talk to my lawyer, then I would sue the department for harassment. I'm sure I could find a pro-trans activist lawyer out there who could dream up some mumbojumbo that could get us a payout.

If she was truly trans then she would have a drivers license or other form of state-issued ID in her female name when she registered for the tournament.

Is it legaly requred to change your name tho? I'm not so sure about that. So a cis guy who was named Francis at birth would be let in to that poker tournament?