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China threatens to attack secessionist Taiwan

Schweddy

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Source: Times Online

China today passed a law authorising the Chinese army to attack Taiwan if the self-governing island tries to move towards independence.
NI_MPU('middle');Only two delegates abstained in the otherwise unanimous vote by the National People’s Congress to approve the use of "non-peaceful means and other necessary measures to protect China’s sovereignty and territorial integrity".

The legislation does not specify what is meant by "non-peaceful means", but analysts believe it would cover anything from blockade to surgical missile strikes and all-out invasion.

The law takes effect immediately.


Friedrice, where yah at?

What do you think of this issue?
 

Batman

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If China does anything hostile against Taiwan, maybe the U.N. will kick them off the U.N. General Assembly's human rights committee, Ya think?
 

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Darn, you beat me to it Gar. I was just going to post that question. The US has always said it would defend Taiwan. Would China play their hand or are they just posturing?
 

GarzaUK

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Like I said in previous posts, the US military is at it's weakest in decades, China knows this. Every day, every month, every year China's power grows (this year it will take the UK over as the 4th biggest economy :( ). And with the soon Europe lift on arms to China, the battle ground is much more even than you think. China is the only country the US fears, don't blame them either.

For the U.S to wage war on China, a draft is definetly needed. Would young Americans sign up to protect a foreign country like Taiwan, when the US has not been attacked by China? Surely China has no links to 9/11 or Al-Queida?

It comes all down to Taiwan, their decision. If they suceed from China, China will invade for certain. My concern is that Taiwan might use the olimpics (spelling) as a tool to their independence, as China wouldn't dare invade Taiwan in risk of losing the games.
Silly Taiwan, China would invade after the games anyway.
 

Schweddy

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I do not think the the US will invade, but we might test the strength of thier economy through diplomacy.

They might also give up their UN seat.

Good call on the Olympics, Garza!
 

gypsy0032

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The EU will not lift the weapons ban. And the US military does not have to be the largest. We have the most technically advanced military in the world. Could we take on China while engaged in Iraq and Afghanistan? No. Could we take them once free of those engagements? Yes. The act of war is making your enemy unwilling or unable to fight. And that is something we can do.
 

Dennis Miller

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I totally agree with what Garza said. The US has certainly made it known that it fears China, and I, too, do not blame the US for feeling that way. China can be extremely intimidating without even trying. The entire world looks at them as a possible future superpower. Now that China's economy is at its best and is not about to come anywhere near a fall, at least not for a long time, they are in the driver's seat. I have already learned to speak Chinese a few years ago because I had a feeling that this was about to happen sooner or later. And I would like to know what is really going on in the world. I don't want to hear Chinese language and then all of the sudden, my name, and then just sit there and wonder ... what next? I want to be prepared for what their nation is about to do. They are certainly capable of making a lot of huge waves right now. And this is seriously nothing compared to what they may have planned for the world's future. But yes, the US has certainly spread itself too thin to even consider ticking off China for any reason. Even with all the troops that are currently in Iraq and Afghanistan. Fer cryin' out loud, people, the US still has troops in Germany left over from WWII. How spread out do they want to be. I say it's time to bring those boys home and move on.
 

Fried Rice

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It was so nice to see the march in Taipei yesterday supporting China stance on this issue. So many march and prove that China is truly one race. The law passed recently in Beijing was meant as act of last resort should reactionaries - at some furture point - try to seize control and declare independant state. The people in Taiwan yesterday maech to say that they would never declare independance in this way and such law not required. Like Hong Kong and Macau, Taiwan embodies "One Country, Two Systems". Talk in Taiwan if independance is mere face-saving games we chinese like to play. Taiwan is completely part of China - economically, culturally and politically. At one time Taiwan economy was even stronger than China but even at that time there was no mass movement to Independance. You focus on the independance issue and never report on the many other ways we are linked together.

USA will never intervene in Taiwan issue. Firstly, there will be no conflict as both Mainland and Taipei seek peaceful solution (as new law will guarrentee). Second, USA and the UN recognise there is only 1 China. The UN etc cannot get involved as Tawian has no legal recognition.

Even though China could walk into Taiwan today and world would take no action, we dont as we are peaceful people. Unlike USA which has illegally invaded so many countries and killed so many people.
 

Arch Enemy

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Well said Fried.

People, do you honestly think America are the only ones afraid of China's power... think of Taiwan ..if they resisted then they'd have a terrible problem on their hands.

America's ego is too big to risk a burst by the hands of China... we destroyed one of the biggest military force back in the good ole '90s..but China is a different story.. I also agree that it is right that we should be wetting our pants.. the media has made it look like this. First, earlier in the year, there was a big thing about how China is doubling it's military size and now them "threatening attacks". Hooray for Capitalism.
 

RightinNYC

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Fried Rice said:
It was so nice to see the march in Taipei yesterday supporting China stance on this issue. So many march and prove that China is truly one race. The law passed recently in Beijing was meant as act of last resort should reactionaries - at some furture point - try to seize control and declare independant state. The people in Taiwan yesterday maech to say that they would never declare independance in this way and such law not required. Like Hong Kong and Macau, Taiwan embodies "One Country, Two Systems". Talk in Taiwan if independance is mere face-saving games we chinese like to play. Taiwan is completely part of China - economically, culturally and politically. At one time Taiwan economy was even stronger than China but even at that time there was no mass movement to Independance. You focus on the independance issue and never report on the many other ways we are linked together.

USA will never intervene in Taiwan issue. Firstly, there will be no conflict as both Mainland and Taipei seek peaceful solution (as new law will guarrentee). Second, USA and the UN recognise there is only 1 China. The UN etc cannot get involved as Tawian has no legal recognition.

Even though China could walk into Taiwan today and world would take no action, we dont as we are peaceful people. Unlike USA which has illegally invaded so many countries and killed so many people.
This post was so full of **** that I almost cried.

"Prove that China is truly one race" - What kind of propaganda is this?

"Talk in Taiwan if independance is mere face-saving games we chinese like to play." - Right, that's why the US signed a mutual defence pact, because we like to play "face saving games."

"Firstly, there will be no conflict as both Mainland and Taipei seek peaceful solution (as new law will guarrentee)." - How exactly does a law that says "If you do this wrong, we will attack you" guarantee peace?

"Even though China could walk into Taiwan today and world would take no action, we dont as we are peaceful people. Unlike USA which has illegally invaded so many countries and killed so many people." - Hmm, a peaceful people? Interesting theory.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#20worst

This is a list of the 20 worst atrocities in history. #'s 2, 4, 5, and 6 all happened in China. Total dead? 121 million, in those 4 disasters alone. Peaceful though.

Also, I wanted to congratulate you on your great job with human rights. That one child policy is a great idea. Too bad you guys didn't plan it out very well. With many families killing off girls so they can have sons, your country will have a drastic shortage of females within the next twenty years. This will result in many of your men being forced to marry foreigners, which will have a profound impact on the most racist and xenophobic country in the world.

Did you know that China, in addition to employing tens of thousands of people to censor all internet traffic in their country, also employs tens of thousands of people whose job it is to spread propaganda on the internet to make China look better than it is, and to ease fears about China's growing power?

I wonder who could be doing that?
 

Pacridge

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RightatNYU said:
Did you know that China, in addition to employing tens of thousands of people to censor all internet traffic in their country, also employs tens of thousands of people whose job it is to spread propaganda on the internet to make China look better than it is, and to ease fears about China's growing power?
We're doing that here as well. Though here we just pay reporter to change their positions about programs and create "fake" news features and send them out to stations- who air them without letting anyone know they're fake.
 

RightinNYC

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Pacridge said:
We're doing that here as well.
I must have missed that memo.

If we're doing it, I should at least be getting a paycheck. Who would I contact about that?
 

Arch Enemy

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NYU.. no need to be so rude when making your point... You actually sound a bit racist and over the top in your post.

Obviously you didn't recieve the Memo.. of course there is organized Propaganda for America. Military Ads, Commericals, etc etc.
Some of those atrocities are huge in death tolls becasue China has a large population.. and always have had one.

In this new bill China is also establishing trade and taking off embargos on Taiwan which have been held for a while.

I see it as this... Taiwan is pretty much Chinese property.. if American President wants to risk costing our entire military and helping Taiwan in the case of an attack then obviously we deserved it. Just like Vietnam, Gulf Wars, and World War I.. I wouldn't be willing to fight this one out.. it would have no point...even if we repel a Chinese attack the mainland of Taiwan would be demolished.. it'd cause World War III ( Korea would team with China) and it'd be an epic brawl.

I am however not predicting such an attack from China. China has too much to worry about.. most of their people shop at Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart gives China a tremendous amount of Tax money.. so why ruin such a big income?
 
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RightinNYC

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1. Military ads and commercials, and even the government "news releases" (which are not a Bush administration invention) are far different than the US government paying tens of thousands of people to a) censor the internet so as to prevent the people from hearing anything other than state news and b) go around the internet and proclaim how great the US is to other countries.

2. 121 million deaths is because of China's "large population?" China is about 4 times as large as us. I don't think the US has experienced 30 million deaths in individual tragedies. China has experienced so many deaths because its a patently militaristic and xenophobic country.

3. If China holds off on invading Taiwan, I can tell you that it won't be because of Wal-Mart. China has a long history of ignoring possible costs when it comes to the protection of their pride and supremacy.

Over the top? Often. Racist? No.
 

Fried Rice

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RightatNYU said:
This post was so full of **** that I almost cried.

"Prove that China is truly one race" - What kind of propaganda is this?

"Talk in Taiwan if independance is mere face-saving games we chinese like to play." - Right, that's why the US signed a mutual defence pact, because we like to play "face saving games."

"Firstly, there will be no conflict as both Mainland and Taipei seek peaceful solution (as new law will guarrentee)." - How exactly does a law that says "If you do this wrong, we will attack you" guarantee peace?

"Even though China could walk into Taiwan today and world would take no action, we dont as we are peaceful people. Unlike USA which has illegally invaded so many countries and killed so many people." - Hmm, a peaceful people? Interesting theory.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#20worst

This is a list of the 20 worst atrocities in history. #'s 2, 4, 5, and 6 all happened in China. Total dead? 121 million, in those 4 disasters alone. Peaceful though.

Also, I wanted to congratulate you on your great job with human rights. That one child policy is a great idea. Too bad you guys didn't plan it out very well. With many families killing off girls so they can have sons, your country will have a drastic shortage of females within the next twenty years. This will result in many of your men being forced to marry foreigners, which will have a profound impact on the most racist and xenophobic country in the world.

Did you know that China, in addition to employing tens of thousands of people to censor all internet traffic in their country, also employs tens of thousands of people whose job it is to spread propaganda on the internet to make China look better than it is, and to ease fears about China's growing power?

I wonder who could be doing that?
Dear NYU - i think you must be very young person as your arguement is very naive. You should question why you must automatically think i am agent of China (i am as much an agent of China as you are of USA) just because i make positive comments.

USA has repeatedly made clear that it supports the "One China Policy". Indeed, China has recently refused to allow USA warships into Taiwan Strait - USA simply turn around and went home.

Of course this law perserves peace - it clearly states that China has right to prevent groups actively seeking independence. If China really want to act as agressor, we would have marched in long time ago - we could have marched in the day after this law was passed ! But as i said this law is a peaceful measure. Unlike USA which simply walks into countries - Iraq, Panama, etc

Funny you mention 20 worst atrocities in history - how about the current atrocity in Iraq - oh no China in that one. How protected are your Human Rights today ?

One Child Policy - what nonsense you talk - i wont dignify your insult with comments.

I agree that some Internet sites are monitored. I like your vision of "tens of thousands of people to spread propoganda" - i think you confuse us with your own HomeLand Security. It is your own country that is involved in propoganda war. If we are racist etc as you say why we care what people think !

On my way back from North Korea we stop in Seoul and see "American Forces Network" TV station - you want to watch that for a while to truly understand propoganda.

Fried Rice feels sad for this guy
 

Fried Rice

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Pacridge said:
We're doing that here as well. Though here we just pay reporter to change their positions about programs and create "fake" news features and send them out to stations- who air them without letting anyone know they're fake.
Dear Pacridge you make good point - here we know how to read between the lines when we get state news, but on CNN etc, i feel many Americans just accept what they are told as truth. The Amercican propoganda machine has been much more effective than China, Russia etc for long time. it is only now that other powers are rising that the propoganda is failing.

Funny how people accuse me of being chinese spy but no-one thinks to accuse others of being American spy !

Fried Rice already earns too much to work for Govt ;)
 

Fried Rice

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Arch Enemy said:
NYU.. no need to be so rude when making your point... You actually sound a bit racist and over the top in your post.

Obviously you didn't recieve the Memo.. of course there is organized Propaganda for America. Military Ads, Commericals, etc etc.
Some of those atrocities are huge in death tolls becasue China has a large population.. and always have had one.

In this new bill China is also establishing trade and taking off embargos on Taiwan which have been held for a while.

I see it as this... Taiwan is pretty much Chinese property.. if American President wants to risk costing our entire military and helping Taiwan in the case of an attack then obviously we deserved it. Just like Vietnam, Gulf Wars, and World War I.. I wouldn't be willing to fight this one out.. it would have no point...even if we repel a Chinese attack the mainland of Taiwan would be demolished.. it'd cause World War III ( Korea would team with China) and it'd be an epic brawl.

I am however not predicting such an attack from China. China has too much to worry about.. most of their people shop at Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart gives China a tremendous amount of Tax money.. so why ruin such a big income?
Hi Arch Enemy,

The easiest way for USA - or other countries - to intervene in China-taiwan issue would be to recognise Taiwan as independent country. By doing this UN etc could get involved in case of military action. But USA etc will not so this as they recognise that not only is Taiwan part of China, but china will defeat and aggessor such as USA etc. Taiwan is all alone yet we still seek peaceful solution.

I think my figure is right that Walmart accounts for 10% of all China export. We have many Walmart store in China, but they are very different to USA version. Here, they even sell copy CD's etc so they can compete with local market. They invest heavily in China and they talk of the Shanghai office as being the new head office as so much is controlled from here.
 

RightinNYC

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Fried Rice said:
Dear NYU - i think you must be very young person as your arguement is very naive. You should question why you must automatically think i am agent of China (i am as much an agent of China as you are of USA) just because i make positive comments.
I would be suspicious of that because you spout the party line like it's your job...literally.

Funny you mention 20 worst atrocities in history - how about the current atrocity in Iraq - oh no China in that one. How protected are your Human Rights today ?
The reason it's not in the 20 worst atrocities is pretty simple: numbers. We didn't kill 120 million people, unlike you.
One Child Policy - what nonsense you talk - i wont dignify your insult with comments.
What exactly was I incorrect about? Any clarification?

I agree that some Internet sites are monitored. I like your vision of "tens of thousands of people to spread propoganda" - i think you confuse us with your own HomeLand Security. It is your own country that is involved in propoganda war. If we are racist etc as you say why we care what people think !
Funny, by my homeland security doesn't keep me from looking whatever I want up on the internet, or listening to bbc, or even al-jazeera. How can you defend the complete censorship of an entire nation? How do you justify state run papers?
Fried Rice feels sad for this guy
I feel disgusted by you.
 

Arch Enemy

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Why is it always NYU VS someone. Does anybody else see a trend here?

NYU you really should think about your posts before you post them. I know cold-hearted Yankees like to argue (due to most of their Italian heritage.. if you are Italian) but don't be rude and vulgar.. that is not needed.

"The reason it's not in the 20 worst atrocities is pretty simple: numbers. We didn't kill 120 million people, unlike you." Unlike you wasn't needed in your post.. you don't need to accuse someone like that. When you say "Unlike You" you also give of the ideas that you are directly accusing Fried Rice of this... but I doubt he was alive during those terrible times.

Seriously dude think about what you are posting before you do.
 

RightinNYC

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Arch Enemy said:
NYU you really should think about your posts before you post them. I know cold-hearted Yankees like to argue (due to most of their Italian heritage.. if you are Italian) but don't be rude and vulgar.. that is not needed.
Somebody's a little bit racist.

"The reason it's not in the 20 worst atrocities is pretty simple: numbers. We didn't kill 120 million people, unlike you." Unlike you wasn't needed in your post.. you don't need to accuse someone like that. When you say "Unlike You" you also give of the ideas that you are directly accusing Fried Rice of this... but I doubt he was alive during those terrible times.
You're right. I was trying to imply that he was responsible for World War II, the Maoist Revolution, and the Manchu rebellion. That's exactly what I meant to say.


Seriously dude think about what you are posting before you do.
Eh.
 

Fried Rice

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RightatNYU said:
I would be suspicious of that because you spout the party line like it's your job...literally.



The reason it's not in the 20 worst atrocities is pretty simple: numbers. We didn't kill 120 million people, unlike you.


What exactly was I incorrect about? Any clarification?



Funny, by my homeland security doesn't keep me from looking whatever I want up on the internet, or listening to bbc, or even al-jazeera. How can you defend the complete censorship of an entire nation? How do you justify state run papers?


I feel disgusted by you.
Dear NYU

Sad to say - it is exactly this type of attitude that makes Americans so easy to hate. Come back when you can discuss in a rational manner.

Fried Rice says Good-Bye to this guy.
 

RightinNYC

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Fried Rice said:
Dear NYU

Sad to say - it is exactly this type of attitude that makes Americans so easy to hate. Come back when you can discuss in a rational manner.

Fried Rice says Good-Bye to this guy.
What, no rebuttal? Disappointment.

You sure you don't want to try to defend your country's agression, its horrible human rights actions, the One Child policy, its government sponsored copyright infringement, or your supression of information and free speech?

What a surprise.
 

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NYU; I didn't mean to sound racist if I did.. It's just a proven fact that the Italians like to argue..

Your obviously know your stuff and you obviously win a lot of debates..though sterotyping like that isn't really needed.

word yo
 

Fried Rice

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RightatNYU said:
What, no rebuttal? Disappointment.

You sure you don't want to try to defend your country's agression, its horrible human rights actions, the One Child policy, its government sponsored copyright infringement, or your supression of information and free speech?

What a surprise.
hi NYU - I dont really think you much interested in debate, just want to annoy people. One Child Policy was a hard policy but also a necessary one. We were a starving country and hardly able to sustain ourselves. However now we reap the benefit as seen in our strong economy. This sacrifice by our elders ensured the prosperity for the present generation. Many now have more than one child but are subject to a higher level of tax (as costs to state are higher).

Fried Rice awaits NYU's long ranting answer
 
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