• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

China tears down thousands of Crosses; destroys churches

Chagos

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
32,378
Reaction score
9,565
Location
in expatria
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Accepting the use of authoritarian (and often brutal) measures to crack down on modes of thought that you disagree with probably isn't be best approach to building a progressive society.
Indeed.

What's more, it doesn't work in the long run. The Soviet Union having been a prime example wrt suppressing religion altogether (far more than China can currently be interpreted as doing) and failing.
 

jet57

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
31,057
Reaction score
3,969
Location
not here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
I followed a link from Drudge just now, and although the headline’s source is not reputable (it’s the UK's Express), the facts aren’t in dispute, and many sources from the NY Times and WaPo to HuffPo have reported on the ongoing attempts to smother Christianity in the People’s Republic of China.

Christian charity China Aid confirmed just before Easter that more than 2000 crosses had now been demolished by the government as part of their “Three Rectifications and One Demolition” campaign.
It also claimed that since the beginnning of 2016 to early March, 49 Churches had been destroyed in the rampage to abolish Christianity. Christian’s horror as China tears down THOUSANDS of crucifixes | World | News | Daily Express

One partial explanation from WaPo:

As my colleague William Wan reported a few years ago, long-ingrained fears of foreign infiltration and imperialist plots underlie China's official wariness of religion. Christianity also poses an obvious challenge to a nominally atheist, authoritarian leadership that has a hard time accommodating a plurality of belief systems.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-removing-crosses-from-hundreds-of-churches/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/w...es-in-campaign-against-christianity.html?_r=0

NCRegister | Sino-Vatican Talks Advance

Ironically, where Christianity is suppressed or merely “controlled,” it tends to thrive. I think that the People’s Republic of China is blundering here and nurturing rebellion and disobedience to the state.

The government is taking down symbols not destroying churches.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I followed a link from Drudge just now, and although the headline’s source is not reputable (it’s the UK's Express), the facts aren’t in dispute, and many sources from the NY Times and WaPo to HuffPo have reported on the ongoing attempts to smother Christianity in the People’s Republic of China.

Christian charity China Aid confirmed just before Easter that more than 2000 crosses had now been demolished by the government as part of their “Three Rectifications and One Demolition” campaign.
It also claimed that since the beginnning of 2016 to early March, 49 Churches had been destroyed in the rampage to abolish Christianity. Christian’s horror as China tears down THOUSANDS of crucifixes | World | News | Daily Express

One partial explanation from WaPo:

As my colleague William Wan reported a few years ago, long-ingrained fears of foreign infiltration and imperialist plots underlie China's official wariness of religion. Christianity also poses an obvious challenge to a nominally atheist, authoritarian leadership that has a hard time accommodating a plurality of belief systems.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-removing-crosses-from-hundreds-of-churches/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/w...es-in-campaign-against-christianity.html?_r=0

NCRegister | Sino-Vatican Talks Advance

Ironically, where Christianity is suppressed or merely “controlled,” it tends to thrive. I think that the People’s Republic of China is blundering here and nurturing rebellion and disobedience to the state.

Under the present dictator, the attacks on the church have risen dramatically.
From tearing down churches based upon flimsy allegations, churches had been there for years, to arresting - harassing members.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
The government is taking down symbols not destroying churches.

Churches have been demolished for a variety of reasons. Google it.
 

jet57

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
31,057
Reaction score
3,969
Location
not here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Churches have been demolished for a variety of reasons. Google it.

I'm sure they have in some instances. The government however is not on a campaign of tearing down churches, which is a good thing. Even the USSR realized the importance to people of the church and churches remained through their history.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I'm sure they have in some instances. The government however is not on a campaign of tearing down churches, which is a good thing. Even the USSR realized the importance to people of the church and churches remained through their history.

I am sure you did not do a simple search. And the reason I know is I have read about it for years. The present Dictator has/is consolidating power faster and with more direct influence on China than any of his predecessors.

Here from 2010 -2016
https://www.google.ca/#q=chinese+authorities+demolish+churches+2010+thru+2016

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/18/opinion/murong-chinas-clampdown-on-evil-cults.html?_r=0
 

Fearandloathing

How long is now?
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2012
Messages
26,738
Reaction score
23,571
Location
Vancouver, Canada Dual citizen
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'm sure they have in some instances. The government however is not on a campaign of tearing down churches, which is a good thing. Even the USSR realized the importance to people of the church and churches remained through their history.


On the bold you are quite wrong. The communist regime never learned that allowing people to practice faith calms them,

Second, how can you AT ALL sure what the Chinese is not doing. They don't exactly have strong freedom of information laws there.

Third, anyone who thinks Bejing has a soft spot for theology, search Falun Gong.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Well, they are controlled by the government, .. but just because you wouldn't call them churches doesn't mean they aren't churches.

There are many Churches that are outside of Govt control. Yes they are infiltrated, ministers harassed, arrested and sent to jail.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
It might help if you stuck more to truthfulness.

Your claim that the pastor was jailed for merely being a Christian remains false and the link you supplied does nothing to support your false claim.

So don't give me this muck about my needing to educate myself. If you know too little to truthfully comment on the actual conditions of Christians in China, go and heed your own advice. Maybe, instead of relying on whatever you can dig up on the net in support of your agenda, go and work there as I have done.

Note also that I'm not even remotely suggesting that the situation in this issue is anything other than deplorable. But that's not taking anything away from the fact that your claim was false in its representation.

Here are some links. IMHO- credible links
China Has Detained the Pastor of Its Largest Official Church
Gu Yuese is the highest-ranking Christian leader detained since China's infamous Cultural Revolution

Authorities in China have detained the pastor of the country’s largest official Protestant church, who publicly objected to a government drive to demolish crosses on church buildings, in what rights groups say is part of a larger crackdown on religious freedom in the communist nation.

China pastor Gu Yuese investigated for corruption - BBC News
A prominent pastor in China, Gu Yuese, is being investigated for corruption, according to local church authorities in Zhejiang province.

Mr Gu, the head of one of China's biggest state-sanctioned churches, is accused of embezzling funds.

A group of Hong Kong-based Christians have since alleged his probe is linked to his open opposition to a government crackdown on Christian activity.

China is officially atheist but says it guarantees religious freedom.

China jails Christian pastor who fought church demolitions - Telegraph

A Chinese preacher who opposed an “anti-church” demolition campaign that saw hundreds of places of worship partially or completely destroyed has been jailed for one year on charges supporters claim are trumped up.

Huang Yizi, 40, was sentenced before a packed courtroom on Tuesday afternoon for “gathering crowds to disturb social order,” Zhang Kai, his lawyer, said.

https://www.google.ca/#q=christian+ministers+arrested+in+china&start=10
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
I'm sure they have in some instances. The government however is not on a campaign of tearing down churches, which is a good thing. Even the USSR realized the importance to people of the church and churches remained through their history.[

Dead wrong on that.
 

Chagos

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
32,378
Reaction score
9,565
Location
in expatria
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
I'm not disputing the enacted farce (in fact said so a couple of times), I'm addressing the original claim (in its oversimplification).

That he's in jail for being (solely) Christian. In fact it pays to note that totally irreligious house owners share similar fates on account of having protested over their dwellings falling to "town planning" without recompensation.

To present this in a manner solely blowing the religion trumpet is a denigration of those many others. The farce itself is deplorable on all submitted to this fate, pastors and others.
 

RAMOSS

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
62,963
Reaction score
27,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed


Yet, he was put into prison because of 'gathering crowds to disrupt social order'. Mind you, that is still a repressive atmosphere, but it's not strictly because he was Christian. He was arrested because of protesting. Now, IMO, he had a legitimate complaint. But, it wasn't because he was Christian, but because he objected to the government's repressive rule.
 

JANFU

Land by the Gulf Stream
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Dec 27, 2014
Messages
49,203
Reaction score
27,414
Location
Best Coast Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Yet, he was put into prison because of 'gathering crowds to disrupt social order'. Mind you, that is still a repressive atmosphere, but it's not strictly because he was Christian. He was arrested because of protesting. Now, IMO, he had a legitimate complaint. But, it wasn't because he was Christian, but because he objected to the government's repressive rule.
Considering the Chinese can arrest you for whatever reasons they deem fit, find you guilty as directed by higher officials. The Govt is attacking Christians. It is how Xi Jinping is consolidating power. No opposition permitted. Now if you cannot see that, nothing I can do about it.
His moves on consolidating power are not only directed at Christians.
 

RAMOSS

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
62,963
Reaction score
27,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Considering the Chinese can arrest you for whatever reasons they deem fit, find you guilty as directed by higher officials. The Govt is attacking Christians. It is how Xi Jinping is consolidating power. No opposition permitted. Now if you cannot see that, nothing I can do about it.
His moves on consolidating power are not only directed at Christians.

Oh, I am quite sure that is how he is doing things. But, like I said, the arrest was not because of being Christian, but because of not being a little robot. That doesnt' mean china is not a repressive government. The complaint was this minister was targeted merely because he was Christian. Your links pointed out, no, that isn't true.
 

Kal'Stang

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2009
Messages
42,744
Reaction score
22,569
Location
Bonners Ferry ID USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
For thousands of years the Chinese were ruled by an Emperor who was considered akin to God if not A God. Much like the Egyptians. It's really no surprise to me that the Chinese government would want to stomp out all other religions. Particularly if they want a return to the olden days of Emperor's and Emperor's being Gods. Or at least as close as they can come to it.
 

jet57

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 19, 2012
Messages
31,057
Reaction score
3,969
Location
not here
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
On the bold you are quite wrong. The communist regime never learned that allowing people to practice faith calms them,

Second, how can you AT ALL sure what the Chinese is not doing. They don't exactly have strong freedom of information laws there.

Third, anyone who thinks Bejing has a soft spot for theology, search Falun Gong.

I never said such governments had a soft spot. My implication is that such governments knew of the power of religion in their societies.

God In The Gulag: Christianity?s Survival In Soviet Russia | Augustine Collective

Christianity remains a persecuted religion today, as Brendan Woods illustrates in his article “Christianity and Culture, Lessons from China” in the Spring 2010 issue of The Dartmouth Apologia. Even amid these examples, the Soviet Union’s effort to eradicate Christianity through persecution stand out as one of the most determined. Yet just as in Nero’s Roman Empire, Christianity in the Soviet Union neither disappeared, nor was it significantly weakened, by decades of persecution. The character, loyal community, and sincere belief of Russian Christians enabled them to maintain their faith and even to gain additional followers despite all the efforts of the Soviet government to eliminate them.

What I'm saying with respect to this story, is that the Chinese government is not on a blitzkrieg to tear down churches. They are removing public displays of religion, like crosses on church steeples. Religion however isn't going anywhere.
 

Northern Light

The Light of Truth
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 7, 2013
Messages
7,751
Reaction score
4,718
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
It's not just fear of imperialism, but fear of internal rebellion. Read up about the Taiping Rebellion to understand why. During the 20th century, some guy started telling people he was the long lost brother of Jesus, and he gained millions of followers. I might be re-phrasing this wrong, but he basically setup a separate country out of Tianjin, and the Nationalists (rulers at the time) had to go to war with him. I think that's at least partly where the fear of Christianity comes from.

They also fear religion in general. The way they treat Muslims is similar, or worse. When a church gets enough followers, they force the church to split into numerous churches, like how you'd split up a monopoly business. It's to de-centralize the power.

Ironically, where Christianity is suppressed or merely “controlled,” it tends to thrive. I think that the People’s Republic of China is blundering here and nurturing rebellion and disobedience to the state.

I have to disagree with this. Christianity has had a very low conversion rate in China, even back in the day when Europe seized power. Low estimates put Christians at 60 something million if I recall, which seems like a lot, but not when you consider the total population of China. The conversion rate is even lower in India.

Asia, in general, is fairly resistant to Christianity for some reason. I think only 10-15% of the population of China are religious at all.
 

Bodi

Just waiting for my set...
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
114,400
Reaction score
24,581
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I followed a link from Drudge just now, and although the headline’s source is not reputable (it’s the UK's Express), the facts aren’t in dispute, and many sources from the NY Times and WaPo to HuffPo have reported on the ongoing attempts to smother Christianity in the People’s Republic of China.

Christian charity China Aid confirmed just before Easter that more than 2000 crosses had now been demolished by the government as part of their “Three Rectifications and One Demolition” campaign.
It also claimed that since the beginnning of 2016 to early March, 49 Churches had been destroyed in the rampage to abolish Christianity. Christian’s horror as China tears down THOUSANDS of crucifixes | World | News | Daily Express

One partial explanation from WaPo:

As my colleague William Wan reported a few years ago, long-ingrained fears of foreign infiltration and imperialist plots underlie China's official wariness of religion. Christianity also poses an obvious challenge to a nominally atheist, authoritarian leadership that has a hard time accommodating a plurality of belief systems.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-removing-crosses-from-hundreds-of-churches/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/w...es-in-campaign-against-christianity.html?_r=0

NCRegister | Sino-Vatican Talks Advance

Ironically, where Christianity is suppressed or merely “controlled,” it tends to thrive. I think that the People’s Republic of China is blundering here and nurturing rebellion and disobedience to the state.

So what. The faster that the world is free from religion the better...
 

blackjack50

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
26,629
Reaction score
6,661
Location
Florida
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
There's a lot of American politicians who don't follow it too. Maybe the Chinese have noticed (how could you not) the way religion becomes a corrosive influence to rational behavior and, ultimately, challenges ALL existing, deliberative, man-made authority with an alternative, magical one. Whether it's Islam or Christianity, the search for personal meaning evolves into an oppressive, totalitarian strategy for how to deal with other people. God is an opiate that, eventually, numbs the public to their own stupidity and threatens civility.

Personally, I think they would do better to acknowledge that people need existential answers and learn to utilize that innate desire in a healthier way than the Abrahamic religions have offered. If history has taught us anything, it's that one religion replaces another which replaces another. Humankind just needs a superior replacement paradigm. Preferably, one that is not so violent and dogmatic.

Obviously atheism (especially state atheism) tends to make one corrosive towards open mindedness, diversity, respect, and tolerance. But if we are going to stop making sweeping generalizations about a group based on the actions of a few...then we know that "dogmatism and violence" are buzzwords used by people who have absolutely zero involvement in modern American/western religions, and believe whatever the hell they are told to believe about how "evil" modern western religions are.
 

blackjack50

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 14, 2011
Messages
26,629
Reaction score
6,661
Location
Florida
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
So what. The faster that the world is free from religion the better...

Ah. Yes. Because this kind of action made by state sponsored atheism is EXACTLY what the world needs. You think American police are bad? Imagine a world of thought control where you can't even believe in your own religion because the thought police will get you.

Religion isn't bad. People who try to control others are bad.

Ps

Example? Jedi vs Sith (sorry I'm reading a Star Wars philosophy book). Some believers in "the force" use it peacefully and for the greater good. Others recognize the power and abuse it. How could "the force"?itself be evil?

(Yes...over simplifying but it works).
 

dimensionallava

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,414
Reaction score
1,524
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Communist
let me know when people show up to their churches with machine guns

2EB460CD00000578-3329552-image-m-13_1448225522931.jpg
 

Reformedfindlay

cynical class clown
DP Veteran
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
10,761
Reaction score
3,409
Location
CONNECTICUT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Well, they are controlled by the government, .. but just because you wouldn't call them churches doesn't mean they aren't churches.

I dunno. But I'm pretty sure that going to this Communist controlled church would not feel the same as the church I attend currently.
 

dimensionallava

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,414
Reaction score
1,524
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Communist
For thousands of years the Chinese were ruled by an Emperor who was considered akin to God if not A God. Much like the Egyptians. It's really no surprise to me that the Chinese government would want to stomp out all other religions. Particularly if they want a return to the olden days of Emperor's and Emperor's being Gods. Or at least as close as they can come to it.

you could say the same thing about england
 
Top Bottom