China Prevents American War

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

Kenneth sweetheart, this is the one paragraph of your excellent post I would disagree with. Fried Rice is openly gay, and that hardly fits in with the image of the Chinese government official trying to push the party line. If you go on the China Daily News forum, you'll see many of these people and they don't argue as coherently or as rationally as our own dear Mr. Rice.

I had reasons for that. I did engage Mr. Rice for as long as I cared to, and quit when it became obvious what he was. There were at least three things that led me to my conclusion.
First, he mentioned that he was with a group that was about to leave South Korea and go into North Korea to build casinos. Later, he mentioned that he was writing from Vietnam. Perhaps I jumped to the conclusion from this that he was an elite cadreman, but I don't think so.
Secondly, I had advanced the thesis that but for China the Korean nation would be united, prosperous and peaceful.
As part of the ensuing discussion I mentioned that the Korean War was started by North Korea attacking the South and the American trigger forces there. This is a historical fact, but Rice responded by calling America the aggressor. That ended the discussion right there.
Thirdly, the hostility oozes out of Mr Rice's writings.

Apropos of the above, today's WP had an article about a Chinese crackdown on student internet discussion groups.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

I had reasons for that. I did engage Mr. Rice for as long as I cared to, and quit when it became obvious what he was. There were at least three things that led me to my conclusion.
First, he mentioned that he was with a group that was about to leave South Korea and go into North Korea to build casinos. Later, he mentioned that he was writing from Vietnam. Perhaps I jumped to the conclusion from this that he was an elite cadreman, but I don't think so.
Secondly, I had advanced the thesis that but for China the Korean nation would be united, prosperous and peaceful.
As part of the ensuing discussion I mentioned that the Korean War was started by North Korea attacking the South and the American trigger forces there. This is a historical fact, but Rice responded by calling America the aggressor. That ended the discussion right there.
Thirdly, the hostility oozes out of Mr Rice's writings.

Apropos of the above, today's WP had an article about a Chinese crackdown on student internet discussion groups.

Very interesting points Kenneth. I have to confess my knowledge of the Korean war is rather rusty, so I won't comment on what I'm not sure about, but as I said, I don't think we can just dismiss Mr. Rice's analyses of the rise of China and the decline of the US, which I believe were essentially correct.

You should try the China Daily forum:

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/newstalk.shtml

Yes, it's probably heavily patrolled, but you get some interesting debate on there, including some very intelligent posters (Chinese and otherwise) critical of the government. I have email contact with a couple of guys in China, and they don't seem to be restricted in what they think and say. Adlittedly, not all Chinese have access to international websites, but frankly I'd compare it to somebody stuck in Nowhere, Oklahoma or Incest, Mississippi; reliant on conservative local news and believeing that Fox and CNN Lies are balanced international coverage. The only difference is that most Chinese actually realise they're lied to at times, whereas some of your fellow countrymen have genuinely bought this land of the free crap. And if I were young again with my life in front of me, I'd rather be in China with a bright future ahead than in the US with nothing but doom and decline to look forward to. Neither has a genuinely free press as certain European nations know it, so I'd opt for the economic prosperity. And at least in China there's the hope of democratisation, whereas in the US, there's little hope since people mistakenly believe they are already free.

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

Very interesting points Kenneth. I have to confess my knowledge of the Korean war is rather rusty, so I won't comment on what I'm not sure about, but as I said, I don't think we can just dismiss Mr. Rice's analyses of the rise of China and the decline of the US, which I believe were essentially correct.

You should try the China Daily forum:

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/newstalk.shtml

Yes, it's probably heavily patrolled, but you get some interesting debate on there, including some very intelligent posters (Chinese and otherwise) critical of the government. I have email contact with a couple of guys in China, and they don't seem to be restricted in what they think and say. Adlittedly, not all Chinese have access to international websites, but frankly I'd compare it to somebody stuck in Nowhere, Oklahoma or Incest, Mississippi; reliant on conservative local news and believeing that Fox and CNN Lies are balanced international coverage. The only difference is that most Chinese actually realise they're lied to at times, whereas some of your fellow countrymen have genuinely bought this land of the free crap. And if I were young again with my life in front of me, I'd rather be in China with a bright future ahead than in the US with nothing but doom and decline to look forward to. Neither has a genuinely free press as certain European nations know it, so I'd opt for the economic prosperity. And at least in China there's the hope of democratisation, whereas in the US, there's little hope since people mistakenly believe they are already free.

After WWII the Korean peninsula was divided along the 38th parallel into what amounted to two countries aligned cold war fashion. America left a relatively small force in the southern half to discourage any northern incursion. This didn't work and North Korea attacked in force and almost drove us into the sea near Pusan. We reacted with an amphibious landing at Inchon, which threatened to split the North Korean forces and caused them to pull back to the north. Subsequently, we drove them to the northern boundary of the country, the Yalu river. At this point, the poised Chinese army came to their defense, and some nasty fighting ensued ending with a stalemate.

A friend of mine, an old motorcycling buddy, sported three bullet wounds across his chest from a chinese machine gun until the day he died.

The war was stalemated, because of a political decision not to engage China. General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur was of the strong opinion that we should go into China and kick arse, while Harry Truman felt otherwise. Truman fired MacArthur. It was quite a sensation, since many people felt that Mac was close to a god.

That decision was understandable, given that we were just finished with a maximum effort extended war and the country was in no mood to resume with a war that promised to be every bit as extended and nasty.

So that's my Readers' Digest take on the Korean War. In a way there was a repeat in the Vietnam War. China provided a privileged sanctuary for NVM, making the war impossible to win. Again, we had no stomach for directly engaging with it. From a contemporary viewpoint the wisdom of this policy seems questionable.

I'm pretty sure that anything your young chinese correspondents have to say is written with Big Brother very much in mind. You may also find that there are fewer participants lately.

China is certainly a important rival that and our present insane policies aren't helping. :-(

 

[anomaly]

After WWII the Korean peninsula was divided along the 38th parallel into what amounted to two countries aligned cold war fashion. America left a relatively small force in the southern half to discourage any northern incursion. This didn't work and North Korea attacked in force and almost drove us into the sea near Pusan. We reacted with an amphibious landing at Inchon, which threatened to split the North Korean forces and caused them to pull back to the north. Subsequently, we drove them to the northern boundary of the country, the Yalu river. At this point, the poised Chinese army came to their defense, and some nasty fighting ensued ending with a stalemate.

A friend of mine, an old motorcycling buddy, sported three bullet wounds across his chest from a chinese machine gun until the day he died.

The war was stalemated, because of a political decision not to engage China. General of the Armies Douglas MacArthur was of the strong opinion that we should go into China and kick arse, while Harry Truman felt otherwise. Truman fired MacArthur. It was quite a sensation, since many people felt that Mac was close to a god.

That decision was understandable, given that we were just finished with a maximum effort extended war and the country was in no mood to resume with a war that promised to be every bit as extended and nasty.

So that's my Readers' Digest take on the Korean War. In a way there was a repeat in the Vietnam War. China provided a privileged sanctuary for NVM, making the war impossible to win. Again, we had no stomach for directly engaging with it. From a contemporary viewpoint the wisdom of this policy seems questionable.

I'm pretty sure that anything your young chinese correspondents have to say is written with Big Brother very much in mind. You may also find that there are fewer participants lately.

China is certainly a important rival that and our present insane policies aren't helping. :-(

I'm not so sure direct engagement with China in either war would have been smart, so I believe that, on that policy, we were correct. Remember that by 1950 China is fresh off a revolution in '49 and has a very powerful and growing Red Army, with aid from Russia, atleast until Stalin's death in '53. In the Korean war our mistake was obvious: we restored South Korea and returned the border to the 38th parallel, yet then we lead UN forces into North Korea instead of calling the South Koreans back. We drove much too far, to the very banks of the Yalu River, the border with China. With talk of atomic bombing during the entire war, it's no wonder China felt obligeted to aid their allies, and protect Chinese self interest. They, as we should have known, became North Korea's counterweight and pushed back to the 38th parallel. Basically, we should have just stopped at the 38th when we got there the first time, this would have saved thousands of American and Korean and Chinese lives, but, then again, MacArthur was an idiot...and Truman not much better...

The Vietnam war is a bit more complex, as the mistake was invading in the first place. We invaded because of fear of the Communist 'domino effect' (the argument that if one country turns communist, another will, then another and so on). Before we arrived, Ho Chi Minh was ready to unite Vietnam with a national vote, after a Geneve assemblage had given the French the south, and the Vietminh the south. The national vote was scheduled to take place in two years so that the Vietnamese, who were overwhelmingly behind Ho Chi Minh, could choose their own government. The USA saw the obvious 'danger' here (even though it was known that Ho Chi Minh improved the lives of thousands of peasants with land redistribution reforms, reforms later not taken by Diem in the south), and ecided to set up an American sphere in the south. The US set up a capital in Saigon and appointed Ngo Dinh Diem, who had recently been living in New Jersey, as head of the government. As The Pentagon Papers later mentioned, "South Vietnam was essentially a creation the creation of the United States". Diem, a Catholic in a country of Buddhists, was immensely unpopular. He was later overthrown by a US led coup, after his unpopularity was seen by the USA. Some military generals took his place, but could not contain the National Liberation Front movement which had been formed in the south by groups of peasants committed to overthrowing the regime of Diem, and later, of the genrals succeeding him. After this, LBJ stirred up some American support for this war through events in the Gulf of Tonkin (these events, the 'unprovoked' attack of a US destroyer, later turned out to be a fake). And so with this Gulf of Tonkin lie (one which some compare to the WMD claim by Bush to begin his war in Iraq) the eight year war began. One can easily see the war, which killed over 40,000 American soldiers and many, many more Vietnamese, was entirely unwarranted and US reasons for entering the war were mostly lies.

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

I'm not so sure direct engagement with China in either war would have been smart, so I believe that, on that policy, we were correct. Remember that by 1950 China is fresh off a revolution in '49 and has a very powerful and growing Red Army, with aid from Russia, atleast until Stalin's death in '53.

The Chinese revolution had been going on for quite a while and was resolved in '49. At that point, as you say, they were in the same position as we were after WWII in '46. That is, they still had their armies. We didn't, of course. Given the will, it would have been possible to remobilize, but the will, even interest, was definitely lacking.

Nevertheless, we have now backed away from a confrontation with China at least twice and may be headed for a third over Taiwan. China can't help but be contemptuous of us at this point. In the long run this one thing is going to cause us far more trouble than we have avoided by backing off.

In the Korean war our mistake was obvious: we restored South Korea and returned the border to the 38th parallel, yet then we lead UN forces into North Korea instead of calling the South Koreans back. We drove much too far, to the very banks of the Yalu River, the border with China. With talk of atomic bombing during the entire war, it's no wonder China felt obligeted to aid their allies, and protect Chinese self interest. They, as we should have known, became North Korea's counterweight and pushed back to the 38th parallel. Basically, we should have just stopped at the 38th when we got there the first time, this would have saved thousands of American and Korean and Chinese lives, but, then again, MacArthur was an idiot...and Truman not much better...

Reread what I wrote there about the Korean War. We were damn near thrown completely off the peninsula as a result of their initial attack. It wasn't like we were thinking about where the final armistice line should be. The Inchon landing took place way north of the 38th parallel and threatened to split the NK armies so they had to pull back, a strategy conceived by the idiot, MacArthur, btw. Are you saying that at this point we should have withdrawn to the initial line? What a novel way to conduct a war. :rofl Maybe you should write a book.

The Vietnam war is a bit more complex, as the mistake was invading in the first place. We invaded because of fear of the Communist 'domino effect' (the argument that if one country turns communist, another will, then another and so on). <snip>

This one has been beat to death already. My only reason for introducing it at this point was to point out that this was just another example of China making a war impossible to win.

 

[Fried Rice]

Dear All,

I am back and see that debate is good and strong. It made me laugh at the comment about me not able to get the internet in China as though we all live in rice fields and mud huts ( i have Louis Vuitton store 5 mins from here !) - some internet cafe rooms are monitored for hot words - no different to USA and its "war on terror" restricitons of civil rights. All communication in USA is monitored.

I also see a comment about the NK casino but cant remember what it was. Anyway, very busy here. No internet in NK so i have much to read and study. I met many Americans in NK (they work on casino and other construction project) and they enjoy the country. They have all comforts of home and make lot of money - i bet you dont see this on your TV screens.

We did all have great laugh at the lesbian Rice woman (she no relation !) Begging China to help avert war with NK. USA so scared of NK and send that woman to beg for help. USA is lucky that China is a peaceful nation and seeks diplomatic solution to problems. As usual USA makes big mess and rest of civilised world has to sort it out. NK admit to weapons and USA wants to talk - Iraq has no weapons (and no China on doorstep) and you murder thousands and thousands of people.

Fried Rice ate too much Kim Chee

 

[Fried Rice]

Dear All

I forgot one point about me - yes i am open gay man in China. China is not illegal in China - unlike many places in USA which openly condemm gay people and submit them to human rights crimes and abuses. I suggest all gay people in USA who are babdly treated move to China where you will be very welcome and free to live your life.

Fried Rice Loves All Men

 

[Pacridge]

Dear All

I forgot one point about me - yes i am open gay man in China. China is not illegal in China - unlike many places in USA which openly condemm gay people and submit them to human rights crimes and abuses. I suggest all gay people in USA who are babdly treated move to China where you will be very welcome and free to live your life.

Fried Rice Loves All Men

Welcome back Fried Rice.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

I also see a comment about the NK casino but cant remember what it was. Anyway, very busy here. No internet in NK so i have much to read and study. I met many Americans in NK (they work on casino and other construction project) and they enjoy the country. They have all comforts of home and make lot of money - i bet you dont see this on your TV screens.

I think this is the casino you're alluding to?


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/02/news/won.html

No, I don't think they'll be shown how US businesses make a fortune in NK on their "60 minutes" somehow. Too many fascinating stories about how Oprah saved a 400 pound woman.

 

[Fried Rice]

I think this is the casino you're alluding to?


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/02/news/won.html

No, I don't think they'll be shown how US businesses make a fortune in NK on their "60 minutes" somehow. Too many fascinating stories about how Oprah saved a 400 pound woman.

Hello Urethra Franklin - i think this Herald is USA paper so at least one paper report this (i bet no one read it though...). Probably too busy looking for articles about Janet Jacksons Boob which sadly didnt, as predicted, cause the end of civilisation as USA knows it.

Fried Rice had museli today

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Hello Urethra Franklin - i think this Herald is USA paper so at least one paper report this (i bet no one read it though...). Probably too busy looking for articles about Janet Jacksons Boob which sadly didnt, as predicted, cause the end of civilisation as USA knows it.

Fried Rice had museli today

Hello Fried Rice,
Yes it comes from the International Herald Tribune, a poor quality publication (have you noticed it's always the free one in hotels and on airlines?) and not always a reliable source of information, but as you've been involved, perhaps you can verify the story?

 

[Pacridge]

I think this is the casino you're alluding to?


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/02/news/won.html

No, I don't think they'll be shown how US businesses make a fortune in NK on their "60 minutes" somehow. Too many fascinating stories about how Oprah saved a 400 pound woman.

Oprah saved a 400 pound woman? Wow! What paper was that in? My paper was full of Wacko Jacko crap all week. 24/7. What he wore to court. How late he was to court. How his back hurt while in court. When his attorney ate lunch. Why his attorney ate lunch. How many bites it took for his attorney to eat his lunch. Made me about lose my lunch.

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Oprah saved a 400 pound woman? Wow! What paper was that in? My paper was full of Wacko Jacko crap all week. 24/7. What he wore to court. How late he was to court. How his back hurt while in court. When his attorney ate lunch. Why his attorney ate lunch. How many bites it took for his attorney to eat his lunch. Made me about lose my lunch.

You need to emigrate sugar. You're too bright for that intellectual wasteland.
I'm sure they'll be a home for you in Britain with Naughty Nurse?

 

[Pacridge]

You need to emigrate sugar. You're too bright for that intellectual wasteland.
I'm sure they'll be a home for you in Britain with Naughty Nurse?

Somehow I don't think my wife would understand my shacking up with Naughty in the UK countryside. And I'm sure Naughty's a nice guy- but there's just nothing appealing to that for me at all.

But seriously there's something awfully wrong with our news sources here. Even during the election the content sucked. It seems like they spent more time on what the candidates wives were wearing then they did on what the candidates positions were. I haven't been to Europe in years but I don't remember the news there being made up with such complete fluff. Here the local nightly newscast spends more time on sports then it does on politics. I like sports, I really do. But the out come of political issues have more of an impact on my daily life then if the "Laker's" won or lost.

 

[Fried Rice]

Somehow I don't think my wife would understand my shacking up with Naughty in the UK countryside. And I'm sure Naughty's a nice guy- but there's just nothing appealing to that for me at all.

But seriously there's something awfully wrong with our news sources here. Even during the election the content sucked. It seems like they spent more time on what the candidates wives were wearing then they did on what the candidates positions were. I haven't been to Europe in years but I don't remember the news there being made up with such complete fluff. Here the local nightly newscast spends more time on sports then it does on politics. I like sports, I really do. But the out come of political issues have more of an impact on my daily life then if the "Laker's" won or lost.

hello Pacridge - we not talk for a time. Its so funny that people complain to me about our "biased media" and dont even question how their own news is only concerned with janet jackson boob or her brother (so much for innocent until guilty is seems). I remember once i was in Hawaii and watch local news, then the guy said "turning to world news, today in New York...."

Fried Rice misses Mai Tai

 

[Fried Rice]

Hello Fried Rice,
Yes it comes from the International Herald Tribune, a poor quality publication (have you noticed it's always the free one in hotels and on airlines?) and not always a reliable source of information, but as you've been involved, perhaps you can verify the story?

Thanks Urethra - yes this story is actually quite correct. the only thing wrong is to say the casino is for Foreigner only - its for anyone with money. The USA media so focus on NK yet strange they miss this story.....I also think its funny the cartoon is also made in NK - right hand of USA really doesnt know what the left one is doing

F

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Somehow I don't think my wife would understand my shacking up with Naughty in the UK countryside. .

If she loves you she'll be happy for you and learn to move on with her life

And I'm sure Naughty's a nice guy- but there's just nothing appealing to that for me at all..

You need to try harder to convince us, after all the flirting you two do

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

I think this is the casino you're alluding to?


http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/03/02/news/won.html

No, I don't think they'll be shown how US businesses make a fortune in NK on their "60 minutes" somehow. Too many fascinating stories about how Oprah saved a 400 pound woman.

I looked this over and saw no references to either casinos or US businesses. I appeared to me that the round eye businessmen referred to were European. So NK GDP is growing at the rate of 1.2 to 1.8%? Whoopee!

 

[Pacridge]

hello Pacridge - we not talk for a time. Its so funny that people complain to me about our "biased media" and dont even question how their own news is only concerned with janet jackson boob or her brother (so much for innocent until guilty is seems). I remember once i was in Hawaii and watch local news, then the guy said "turning to world news, today in New York...."

Fried Rice misses Mai Tai

That's funny!

I took my wife to Hawaii once. Flew there to watch a Rolling Stones concert some years back. Went to check into our room and the place was awful. Looked like some place you'd rent by the hour. My wife wouldn't even sit on the bed. I called our travel agent and got booked into another resort. As we left I used the restroom, in the room, and there was a sign on the mirror instructing people how to dispose of their hypodermic needles. The manager came up to the room as we were leaving and asked me why we we not going to be staying with them. I pointed to the sign and said "do you really need to ask?" He replied "well, we get a lot of diabetics here." Sure you do, sure you do. Wife told me later that while I was on my cell phone with the travel agent she looked under the bed and there was and "adult toy" along with some "other things." She never said what the "other things" were and I never asked. The pale white look on her face as she told me about them was enough for me.

Who's Mai Tai?

 

[Fried Rice]

That's funny!

I took my wife to Hawaii once. Flew there to watch a Rolling Stones concert some years back. Went to check into our room and the place was awful. Looked like some place you'd rent by the hour. My wife wouldn't even sit on the bed. I called our travel agent and got booked into another resort. As we left I used the restroom, in the room, and there was a sign on the mirror instructing people how to dispose of their hypodermic needles. The manager came up to the room as we were leaving and asked me why we we not going to be staying with them. I pointed to the sign and said "do you really need to ask?" He replied "well, we get a lot of diabetics here." Sure you do, sure you do. Wife told me later that while I was on my cell phone with the travel agent she looked under the bed and there was and "adult toy" along with some "other things." She never said what the "other things" were and I never asked. The pale white look on her face as she told me about them was enough for me.

Who's Mai Tai?

Isn't Mai Tai the famous drink of Hawaii ? Maybe my English spelling is not so correct.

Where on earth did you stay for it to be so bad ? I stay at Halekulani Hotel in Waikiki and it was very nice and The Four Seasons on Maui was even nicer ! I think Hawaii must be change a lot. It used to be most popular destination for Japanese tourist but it is now expected most tourists will be like me from China. I think the locals all now learn to speak Chinese and not Japanese any more. I even consider to invest in some property there as market is depressed. Even all the airlines are negotiating for direct flights from Hawaii to China cities as must currently go via Tokyo. Hawaii is very nice and hard to believe is part of USA. Like Taiwan, they also have some independance movement.

Fried Rice would be sexy in hula skirt

 

[Urethra Franklin]

I looked this over and saw no references to either casinos or US businesses. I appeared to me that the round eye businessmen referred to were European. :

You're right, this isn't where I read about the casino - drunk again.
Mr. Rice could perhaps enlighten us more?

So NK GDP is growing at the rate of 1.2 to 1.8%? Whoopee!

Don't sniff at it. You're heading for recession.

 

[Fried Rice]

You're right, this isn't where I read about the casino - drunk again.
Mr. Rice could perhaps enlighten us more?





Don't sniff at it. You're heading for recession.

Actually it does mention the casino when taking of HKG business interests, but it doesnt go into any detail.

Also, dont you think it strange that this country that is supposed to be in starvation can have any growth at all !

Fried Rice likes NK marching troops

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Actually it does mention the casino when taking of HKG business interests, but it doesnt go into any detail.

Also, dont you think it strange that this country that is supposed to be in starvation can have any growth at all !

Fried Rice likes NK marching troops

Thanks, that's obviously where I made the confusion, but I know I've read about this casino in depth somewhere. Any ideas Mr. Rice?

 

[Fried Rice]

Thanks, that's obviously where I made the confusion, but I know I've read about this casino in depth somewhere. Any ideas Mr. Rice?

Dear Urethra - i will try to find more reference. maybe your pretty head confuse as i did mention it here some time before. maybe you read that article then remember i mention it ?

Fried Rice likes to gamble

 

[Urethra Franklin]

Dear Urethra - i will try to find more reference. maybe your pretty head confuse as i did mention it here some time before. maybe you read that article then remember i mention it ?

Fried Rice likes to gamble

What a charming man you are Fried Rice.
You knock spots off these rude United Statesians.