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China Premier Wen calls for political reform: report

Demon of Light

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China has to pursue political reform to safeguard its economic health, Premier Wen Jiabao said during a visit to the booming town of Shenzhen, the official Xinhua news agency reported.

Wen's call for political reform lacked specifics. But his comments reflect broader worries that unless the Party embraces at least limited reforms to make officials more answerable, then corruption and abuses may erode the country's economic prospects.

"Without the safeguarding of political restructuring, China may lose what it has already achieved through economic restructuring and the targets of its modernization drive might not be reached," Wen was quoted by Xinhua as saying.

Source: Reuters

Sounds like good stuff to me.
 
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I wouldn't necessarily say so. The interest is in reducing the corruption that hinders economic development. It has nothing to do with corruption that advances it. The CPC is notorious in its complicity with foreign investment at the expense of its domestic workers. The party is filled with red capitalists.

The problem with such a party bureaucracy is that it doesn't have a symbiotic connection with the capitalist class, and so it is inefficient in advancing the interests of capital (both foreign and domestic). This basically is calling for reforms to bring the party closer to capital; this does not imply any form of accountability, democracy, etc...
 
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ludahai

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Oh, give me a break. They have been saying this for a long time. I was living in Shanghai and I distinctly remember then sitting in a restaurant with friends of mine watching the premier talk about reform and how it was imminent. That was more than a decade ago.

Words mean nothing. They say a lot, but do little. This is something they do. Their words make the press, those words make the West and others happy, but they don't actually follow through.
 

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Oh, give me a break. They have been saying this for a long time. I was living in Shanghai and I distinctly remember then sitting in a restaurant with friends of mine watching the premier talk about reform and how it was imminent. That was more than a decade ago.

Words mean nothing. They say a lot, but do little. This is something they do. Their words make the press, those words make the West and others happy, but they don't actually follow through.

What he said, I have the same story but reading it in a news paper a few years ago.
 

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While the Chinese government has used such language as propaganda for many years, China may indeed be nearing a wall they will be forced to climb. As the wages in the country increase and the cost of business rises, China will be forced to make real reform in order to compete, lest they lose their attractiveness to foreign investment and find their economy in shambles. Corruption, though I suspect, will remain.
 

Jetboogieman

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While the Chinese government has used such language as propaganda for many years, China may indeed be nearing a wall they will be forced to climb. As the wages in the country increase and the cost of business rises, China will be forced to make real reform in order to compete, lest they lose their attractiveness to foreign investment and find their economy in shambles. Corruption, though I suspect, will remain.

I think the issue is this.

As any country becomes more and more affluent, it inevitably demands better, from services to reform.

As more and more government revenue comes from Chinese citizens taxes and spending, they gotta keep them happy.

It's all a money game.
 

ludahai

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People have been saying the same thing for 20 years... veteran China watchers like myself have grown rather cynical of these calls to reform, whether it be of the financial system, currency exchange rates, or process of government...
 

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People have been saying the same thing for 20 years... veteran China watchers like myself have grown rather cynical of these calls to reform, whether it be of the financial system, currency exchange rates, or process of government...

I would assume that you would, but you must admit that as China has become more and more affluent, the economy at least has become very Western and free compared to prior history.
 

ludahai

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I would assume that you would, but you must admit that as China has become more and more affluent, the economy at least has become very Western and free compared to prior history.

Actually, this is not the case, but I am not going to get into it now... I am very tired and have an early morning training ride tomorrow...

I suggest reading "In the Jaws of the Dragon" by Eamonn Fingleton. He hit a lot of nails right on the head in his work.
 

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Source: Reuters

Sounds like good stuff to me.
Meh. Corruption is too ingrained in China to be gotten rid of by one man. It's even in the afterlife -- you have to bribe the guardian of the gate to Hell to get in.

Corruption charges are a great way to purge unpopular party members, though. Maybe that's what he's leading up to. :shrug:
 

Demon of Light

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Oh, give me a break. They have been saying this for a long time. I was living in Shanghai and I distinctly remember then sitting in a restaurant with friends of mine watching the premier talk about reform and how it was imminent. That was more than a decade ago.

Words mean nothing. They say a lot, but do little. This is something they do. Their words make the press, those words make the West and others happy, but they don't actually follow through.

They have been saying it and they have been doing it. I understand most skeptics have a hard time seeing political reform, but I could point to countless instances of reform over the years. However, the part from the article I didn't include in the OP was this:

"People's democratic rights and legitimate rights must be guaranteed. People should be mobilized and organized to deal with, in accordance with the law, state, economic, social and cultural affairs," Wen added.

Wen also wants to "create conditions" to allow the people to criticize and supervise the government as a way to address "the problem of over-concentration of power with ineffective supervision."

This is a much more bold and comprehensive statement than I have read about planned political reform in the past. I also think the time is much more suited for such reform now.
 

ludahai

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They have been saying it and they have been doing it. I understand most skeptics have a hard time seeing political reform, but I could point to countless instances of reform over the years. However, the part from the article I didn't include in the OP was this:

What reforms? China still has a disturbing lack of transparancy and human rights have DEGRADED in the past decade, NOT improved, and there is no movement forward on providing the people with democratic rights.

This is a much more bold and comprehensive statement than I have read about planned political reform in the past. I also think the time is much more suited for such reform now.

Actually, it looks very similar to what I saw when I lived in Shanghai in 1999 -- just a few months before the idiocy of China's response to the accidental bombing of the embassy in Yugoslavia and the horrendus crackdown on Falungong ... which is still ongoing...
 
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ludahai said:
People have been saying the same thing for 20 years... veteran China watchers like myself have grown rather cynical of these calls to reform, whether it be of the financial system, currency exchange rates, or process of government...

That really depends on what you mean by reform. If you are referring to the opening up of the government/state/party to democracy then obviously this isn't going to happen any time soon. However, I do think that they are going to have to address the issue of capital allocation and domestic capital investment, particularly in the financial sector where the Chinese banking system has been incredibly inefficient in identifying viable investment opportunities. Especially with its easing of US T-bonds, it is going to not only pursue more diversified foreign investments (as it has been) but will also be required to invest more heavily domestically as the conditions in China continue to develop.
 

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If these just aren't just empty words then I think we can all agree this is great news.
 

Demon of Light

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What reforms? China still has a disturbing lack of transparancy and human rights have DEGRADED in the past decade, NOT improved, and there is no movement forward on providing the people with democratic rights.

What is this about? Sometimes I gotta wonder if some organization or government agency is disseminating a list of points for people to argue on these subjects. You're just spouting off the same trash put out by a dozen human rights groups irrespective of all reforms. It doesn't matter what reforms China implements they always say the same thing in their next report: "Human rights worsened in China over the past year." If that bull**** were actually legitimate China would look like one hell of a worse place than it is today.

Are you just parroting that drivel or is there some other blatant propaganda you're getting this drivel from?

Actually, it looks very similar to what I saw when I lived in Shanghai in 1999 -- just a few months before the idiocy of China's response to the accidental bombing of the embassy in Yugoslavia and the horrendus crackdown on Falungong ... which is still ongoing...

I was thinking of that, which is partly why I said the conditions are more favorable towards such changes.
 

ludahai

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What is this about? Sometimes I gotta wonder if some organization or government agency is disseminating a list of points for people to argue on these subjects. You're just spouting off the same trash put out by a dozen human rights groups irrespective of all reforms. It doesn't matter what reforms China implements they always say the same thing in their next report: "Human rights worsened in China over the past year." If that bull**** were actually legitimate China would look like one hell of a worse place than it is today.

Are you just parroting that drivel or is there some other blatant propaganda you're getting this drivel from?



I was thinking of that, which is partly why I said the conditions are more favorable towards such changes.

Where am I getting it from? People who live there or left there because of the government. I have lived there in the past and have seen it all before and can read and speak the language, so I don't have to rely on translations or deliberatly misleading English press releases to go on.

Actually, you are the one who is spewing propoganda, the propoganda of the dictators in Beijing. You dismiss human rights organizations, but well respected groups like Amnesty International and Reporters without Borders (among many others) are reporting on what is going on in China. Large media outlets are often afraid to get in depth as to what is going on in there as they fear they will lose access. This isn't propoganda, THIS IS FACT.

Now, you have nary made a post in here that doesn't defend or praise China. So, I have to ask you... are you Chinese? or are you one of the Useful Idiots the ChiCom government relies on to fool those who don't know any better about what is going on in there... because I DO know... you can't fool me...
 

Demon of Light

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Where am I getting it from? People who live there or left there because of the government. I have lived there in the past and have seen it all before and can read and speak the language, so I don't have to rely on translations or deliberatly misleading English press releases to go on.

Just because someone has lived there doesn't mean they have a better perspective, in fact I find the opposite is true more often than not. The closer a person feels to a country the more likely they are to be biased for or against.

Actually, you are the one who is spewing propoganda, the propoganda of the dictators in Beijing.

You said this before on another issue, when I only cited facts that can be found on countless unbiased sources.

You dismiss human rights organizations, but well respected groups like Amnesty International and Reporters without Borders (among many others) are reporting on what is going on in China.

I prefer to judge the reliability of an account based on its track record and the track record of these organizations with regards to China is awful to say the least. What I see is that in spite of reforms widely reported by foreign media based on actually informed experience in China where the effects of such reforms are apparent to them these groups continue insisting that things are actually getting worse. Ironically, their reports seem to basically look exactly the same every year citing no new change to laws or practices to the detriment of human rights or press freedom and seem to only reluctantly acknowledge progress.

Also from reading news reports I have seen for myself the rising level of openness in reporting on serious human rights issues in China. Things that I wouldn't see mentioned years ago are being mentioned today. It seems countless people who have no blatant agenda against the Chinese government can see this as clear as day and yet the government's opponents continue saying it is actually getting worse.

What it looks like to me is that China would have to carry out some huge change or reform for these groups to not claim things got worse that year.

Large media outlets are often afraid to get in depth as to what is going on in there as they fear they will lose access.

Really? Cause that is the exact opposite of my experience from reading Western news media. I find they tend to be more critical of China than is reasonable.

Now, you have nary made a post in here that doesn't defend or praise China. So, I have to ask you... are you Chinese? or are you one of the Useful Idiots the ChiCom government relies on to fool those who don't know any better about what is going on in there... because I DO know... you can't fool me...

That accusation has been levied against me in the past, primarily by the most hardline opponents of the Chinese government. I find it quite laughable, especially since you were just insisting that being from China gave you more credibility than me.
 

ludahai

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I didn't say I was from China. I have lived there and have been there several times since. I have a pretty good idea what is going on in there, and it isn't pretty. If you wish to live in ignorance, that is your perogative. I have seen reports like these for TWENTY YEARS, and nothing substantive has yet happened... and in many ways over the last decade, they have gone backwards.

I find it amusing that so many people use what is written in the english-language media as the authority on what is happening there. Their propoganda masters know what they are doing... and in your case, they seem to have been very successful...

Next, I presume you are going to come and tell us that the entire South China Sea belongs to China... you have already fallen for their lies and propoganda about Taiwan.
 

Demon of Light

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I have lived there and have been there several times since. I have a pretty good idea what is going on in there, and it isn't pretty. If you wish to live in ignorance, that is your perogative. I have seen reports like these for TWENTY YEARS, and nothing substantive has yet happened... and in many ways over the last decade, they have gone backwards.

Honestly? Saying I live in ignorance is just absurd when you seem to be saying there hasn't any change in 20 years! Of course, I guess it really depends on what you mean by "substantive" because I think we may have a different definition of that. However, countless China observers who have been to China frequently over the years have frequently recognized that in every area China has had considerable progress over the years. So it seems the only people who think there hasn't been progress are those for whom acknowledging progress would in fact be contrary to their agenda.

I find it amusing that so many people use what is written in the english-language media as the authority on what is happening there. Their propoganda masters know what they are doing... and in your case, they seem to have been very successful.

Actually if their "propaganda masters" are really only allowing more openness in english-language media than they don't know what they're doing. English is taught to hundreds of millions of Chinese so if the intent is to deny the Chinese people access to this information by having it only in English than they are failing quite miserably. Your claim is completely illogical and really just a cop-out to allow you to continue insisting that there has been no reform. I cannot read Chinese therefore in order for me to challenge your claim I would have to first learn an entire language and go back over decades to read countless articles from Chinese news media. It is really an absurd demand meant primarily to make the standard of debate unreasonably high.

I think the point I made is more effective, however. Since most Chinese students are being taught English being open more in the English media is not going to lock them out. Personally, I would believe the claim that English media is more open, but not the claim that somehow this is a deliberate tactic to trick foreigners or that it is happening without similar opening up in Chinese-language media.

Seems opponents of the Chinese government have to resort to some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories to support their position.

Next, I presume you are going to come and tell us that the entire South China Sea belongs to China... you have already fallen for their lies and propoganda about Taiwan.

I didn't fall for any lies or propaganda about Taiwan. I looked up the relevant legal documents myself in places completely separate from any Chinese interest and reached my own conclusions. My conclusion was that Taiwan has no legal claim to independence.
 

ludahai

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Honestly? Saying I live in ignorance is just absurd when you seem to be saying there hasn't any change in 20 years! Of course, I guess it really depends on what you mean by "substantive" because I think we may have a different definition of that.

Most of the changes have been little more than window dressing. In many ways, China has moved backward, especially in regards to human rights. Ask practitioners of Falun Dafa as well as various Christian groups how they feel about the progression of human rights in China. It is also one of the world's largest (perhaps still the largest -- have to check) prison for journalists in the world. Yeah, nice progress. Ever heard of the People's Armed Police? Know what their primary purpose is?

However, countless China observers who have been to China frequently over the years have frequently recognized that in every area China has had considerable progress over the years. So it seems the only people who think there hasn't been progress are those for whom acknowledging progress would in fact be contrary to their agenda.

Those China watchers risk losing access to China if they are overly critical of China. There have been a number of China watchers who HAVE noted that the changes are little more than window dressing and that human rights is moving in the wrong direction. Many of them have lost access to the country as a result. They reward those who carry their message to the West. That has been going on since the 1930s!


Actually if their "propaganda masters" are really only allowing more openness in english-language media than they don't know what they're doing. English is taught to hundreds of millions of Chinese so if the intent is to deny the Chinese people access to this information by having it only in English than they are failing quite miserably.

You are missing the point. The message is meant to fool foreigners into thinking that there is real change going on in China. It is superficial at best. Few foreigners are conversant in spoken Mandarin and even fewer can read Chinese (either in the Simplified -- fake -- or Traditional -- real -- form).

Your claim is completely illogical and really just a cop-out to allow you to continue insisting that there has been no reform. I cannot read Chinese therefore in order for me to challenge your claim I would have to first learn an entire language and go back over decades to read countless articles from Chinese news media. It is really an absurd demand meant primarily to make the standard of debate unreasonably high.

And that is what the ChiCom government counts on and has for decades.

I think the point I made is more effective, however. Since most Chinese students are being taught English being open more in the English media is not going to lock them out. Personally, I would believe the claim that English media is more open, but not the claim that somehow this is a deliberate tactic to trick foreigners or that it is happening without similar opening up in Chinese-language media.

Except that they have been doing this for decades. I would see things in English language media sources in China that would not be found in Chinese.

Seems opponents of the Chinese government have to resort to some of the most outlandish conspiracy theories to support their position.

Except that DECADES of experience have borne out the claims of the critics. You should check out the book "China Misperceived" by Stephen Mosher.

I didn't fall for any lies or propaganda about Taiwan. I looked up the relevant legal documents myself in places completely separate from any Chinese interest and reached my own conclusions. My conclusion was that Taiwan has no legal claim to independence.

Except that you didn't show any citations and all but ignored the cases I cited (with links) in response. You were hardly convincing in that argument because your argument had no basis in international law. The fact is, the Kosovo advisory opinion even further strengthened Taiwan's case vis a vis China. If China were so confident it had a case, it would accept Taiwan's call for an ICJ ajudication.

Now... have you fallen for their propoganda on the South China Sea as well?
 

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Most of the changes have been little more than window dressing.

Nonsense, some changes are called window dressing by critics, but others are definitely not.

In many ways, China has moved backward, especially in regards to human rights. Ask practitioners of Falun Dafa as well as various Christian groups how they feel about the progression of human rights in China. It is also one of the world's largest (perhaps still the largest -- have to check) prison for journalists in the world. Yeah, nice progress. Ever heard of the People's Armed Police? Know what their primary purpose is?

One thing I notice about critics of the Chinese government is their narrow focus. In terms of both changes to laws and changes in practice the Chinese government has expanded rights in countless areas. Apparently people who criticize the Chinese government think there has to be major reform in all areas for China to be doing anything other than backtracking.

In several areas like property rights, worker's rights, freedom of speech, and democracy there have been advancements. Economic rights are the most obvious and expansive areas, but political rights have also expanded over the years.

Human rights groups make a fuss every time some critic of China gets arrested and say it is part of a crackdown on dissent, but they never examine why it happened and who arrested them. In many cases it is a local government this critic has gone after and it is the equivalent of libel or involves state secrets. Countless critics of the Chinese government are not arrested because they avoid making unprovable or outright false allegations and stick with facts that are not considered state secrets.

Those China watchers risk losing access to China if they are overly critical of China. There have been a number of China watchers who HAVE noted that the changes are little more than window dressing and that human rights is moving in the wrong direction. Many of them have lost access to the country as a result. They reward those who carry their message to the West. That has been going on since the 1930s!

I don't doubt that some people outstay their welcome and people who are more supportive of the government get favors (duh that's how it works everywhere), but your own claim acknowledges that it is not all of them and may not even be a majority of them who reiterate claims like yours. So you acknowledge that even highly critical reporters are allowed to continue operating in China.

You are missing the point. The message is meant to fool foreigners into thinking that there is real change going on in China. It is superficial at best. Few foreigners are conversant in spoken Mandarin and even fewer can read Chinese.

Pfft, that doesn't even make sense. Few foreigners may know Chinese, but the fact many Chinese know English means the opening up in English-language news is an opening up for hundreds of millions of Chinese.

(either in the Simplified -- fake -- or Traditional -- real -- form)

Your opinion on anything China-related is becoming increasingly less meaningful to me as you continue talking.

And that is what the ChiCom government counts on and has for decades.

its-a-conspiracy.jpg


Except that they have been doing this for decades. I would see things in English language media sources in China that would not be found in Chinese.

I do not doubt this, but I think you are misunderstanding why it occurs and more importantly misrepresenting what it means. As there are fewer Chinese who speak English and more foreigners who do it is less of a risk to include more open information in such sources. At the same time you think it means Chinese media has remained stagnant, when this is not the case. I do know that Chinese-language sources have also become more open simply because of reports from foreign media on news from from mainland Chinese-language media. The Southern Metropolis Daily is one that I believe has often launched scathing criticism of the government.

Except that DECADES of experience have borne out the claims of the critics. You should check out the book "China Misperceived" by Stephen Mosher.

Another common tactic of opponents of the Chinese government is to cite only people who are blatantly biased against the Chinese government. I'm not even gonna bother with his book given what I have read about the man himself. There are no shortage of such books and I could care less about any specific one making unprovable claims, exaggerating statistics, or selectively citing sources.

Except that you didn't show any citations and all but ignored the cases I cited (with links) in response. You were hardly convincing in that argument because your argument had no basis in international law.

I cited several legal documents by name. Our dispute was primarily focused on whether the Japanese Instrument of Surrender was a legal treaty or not. I took the position that it was and cited relevant legal documents to back up my case and you said it wasn't without citing any documents to support that position.

The fact is, the Kosovo advisory opinion even further strengthened Taiwan's case vis a vis China. If China were so confident it had a case, it would accept Taiwan's call for an ICJ ajudication.

China does not want the dispute internationalized because it does not want to put what it considers an internal matter in the hands of other countries.

Now... have you fallen for their propoganda on the South China Sea as well?

Like I said, my opinion is not based on such things. I have not given much attention to the issue of the South China Sea, but looking over it I think the only other legitimate claims are those of Vietnam. Several sources make mention of a treaty between China and France in 1887 and if that is legitimate then it would seem to indicate the French who were in control of Vietnam renounced past claims to the Spratly and Paracel islands. I would need to look more into this, but one interesting thing is it seems the French after that never seriously exercised a claim until the Republic of China toppled the Beiyang government, which was essentially the successor to the Qing Dynasty.

Based on this it seems to me the Chinese have a more legitimate claim than Vietnam. Certainly their claims to the rest of the South China Sea islands are the most legitimate ones. None of the other countries seemed to have any interest in any of the islands until the middle of the 20th Century while China's claims date back hundreds of years.
 

ludahai

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Look, I am not going to get into a prolonged discussion with you over this. I have seen many people feel like you only to be disappointed over time and wake up to reality.

Based on this it seems to me the Chinese have a more legitimate claim than Vietnam. Certainly their claims to the rest of the South China Sea islands are the most legitimate ones. None of the other countries seemed to have any interest in any of the islands until the middle of the 20th Century while China's claims date back hundreds of years.

:2funny:

I cited several legal documents by name. Our dispute was primarily focused on whether the Japanese Instrument of Surrender was a legal treaty or not. I took the position that it was and cited relevant legal documents to back up my case and you said it wasn't without citing any documents to support that position.

You cited the Surrender and then went on to claim that it is a treaty. Not even the Chinese government makes THAT claim. I cited numerous examples of how a RATIFIED treaty is required to transfer territory from one state to another state... something you were never able to refute...

So ... :failpail:
 

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Look, I am not going to get into a prolonged discussion with you over this. I have seen many people feel like you only to be disappointed over time and wake up to reality.

The difference is I am probably not expecting what those people were expecting. I have no illusions about some huge magic reform that will make them into a Western democracy overnight. Hell, I would see it is as a huge loss to progress if China just rehashed the deeply flawed Western system. I know both the good and bad aspects of the history of nations and that if someone wants to say any country is backtracking on human rights they could easily be selective and condemn most, if not all, countries.


Please, by all means explain why what I said is so laughable, other than the fact that you have an irrational hatred of the Chinese government and thus refuse to accept anything they say as legitimate. I hope you are aware that an independent Taiwan would have no legitimate claim to any of the South China Sea islands just like they would have no legitimate claim to Kinmen and Matsu.

You cited the Surrender and then went on to claim that it is a treaty. Not even the Chinese government makes THAT claim. I cited numerous examples of how a RATIFIED treaty is required to transfer territory from one state to another state... something you were never able to refute...

You claimed treaties have to be ratified by a legislature period, which was simply not true. You never proved in any way that it was a requirement for transferring territory. My argument was based off international law and I cited several examples of where my position was consistent with it.
 

ludahai

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The difference is I am probably not expecting what those people were expecting. I have no illusions about some huge magic reform that will make them into a Western democracy overnight. Hell, I would see it is as a huge loss to progress if China just rehashed the deeply flawed Western system. I know both the good and bad aspects of the history of nations and that if someone wants to say any country is backtracking on human rights they could easily be selective and condemn most, if not all, countries.

China obviously has you believing what they want you to believe. This has been going on since the 1950s. For decades, they have found their mouthpieces in the West more than willing to spout off their version of what is happening inside, which has little relation to reality. You scoff this off as anti-China, but for decades, the skeptics have been proven absolutely correct. Have you ever read English language accounts of China in the 1950s and 1960s? Full of rosy reports regurgitated by their Western tools which we know today were completely false. They are more sophisticated in their methods today due to changes in commuications technology, but they still engage in it.



Please, by all means explain why what I said is so laughable, other than the fact that you have an irrational hatred of the Chinese government and thus refuse to accept anything they say as legitimate. I hope you are aware that an independent Taiwan would have no legitimate claim to any of the South China Sea islands just like they would have no legitimate claim to Kinmen and Matsu.

You actually think Chinese have been using the extreme southern reaches of the South China Sea longer than the Viet Namese, Chams, Khmer, and Malays?!?!? Yeah, right. More spouting of Chinese propaganda.

And I agree on Matsu and Jinmen as well as the fact Taiwan has no legit claims to islands in the South China Sea.

You claimed treaties have to be ratified by a legislature period, which was simply not true. You never proved in any way that it was a requirement for transferring territory. My argument was based off international law and I cited several examples of where my position was consistent with it.

I stated that for territory to be transferred from one state to another state, a properly signed, ratified, and executed treaty is required. This is based on CENTURIES of state practice. I cited several examples.

And as for legislative action, that requirement depends on the state in question, as I have already pointed out. IN some states, it is an executive or cabinat action that is required. The rules you cited are post-1969. You are citing an ARMISTICE, not a TREATY by which territory can be transferred. Not even the PRC makes that claim.
 

Demon of Light

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China obviously has you believing what they want you to believe. This has been going on since the 1950s. For decades, they have found their mouthpieces in the West more than willing to spout off their version of what is happening inside, which has little relation to reality. You scoff this off as anti-China, but for decades, the skeptics have been proven absolutely correct. Have you ever read English language accounts of China in the 1950s and 1960s? Full of rosy reports regurgitated by their Western tools which we know today were completely false. They are more sophisticated in their methods today due to changes in commuications technology, but they still engage in it.

I am not suggesting anything rosy, only that there has been considerable progress over the years. Not some major change, though it adds up over years, but just that they haven't remained static or gotten worse. Also are you talking about communist sympathizers who probably praised Stalin or Castro as well? I wouldn't trust anything they say automatically, though I would not rule out something if I can verify it with another source.

You actually think Chinese have been using the extreme southern reaches of the South China Sea longer than the Viet Namese, Chams, Khmer, and Malays?!?!? Yeah, right. More spouting of Chinese propaganda.

It wasn't simply a matter of using it, but claiming it. From what I read Vietnam is the one making a serious claim long before it was believed to be significant and the French that ruled over the territory apparently said the islands were part of Chinese territory in a treaty. Now, maybe there is something to contradict that, but if not then it seems pretty clear cut and I haven't read anything indicating the other islands were being claimed by any country other than China before last century. The Philippines seems to have a really absurd argument to back up their claim. Now, maybe this is not the case but aside from the Philippines the only countries other than Vietnam and China, including Taiwan as it claims them as a Chinese government, claiming any of the other islands have all made their claims to the Spratly islands after oil was found and are making claims based on the continental shelf as opposed to historic claims.

If I am missing something by all means point it out. Personally, I have not invested much time looking into that particular dispute.

I stated that for territory to be transferred from one state to another state, a properly signed, ratified, and executed treaty is required. This is based on CENTURIES of state practice. I cited several examples.

I also pointed out that the Instrument of Surrender met all those criteria because all that matters is that representatives deemed by the governments in question to have the legal power to accept such an agreement accept it. Whether generals or diplomats if the governments who send them agree they have the power to simply accept the treaty and give it legal effect than it is all that matters. That is also based on centuries of state practice.

And as for legislative action, that requirement depends on the state in question, as I have already pointed out. IN some states, it is an executive or cabinat action that is required. The rules you cited are post-1969. You are citing an ARMISTICE, not a TREATY by which territory can be transferred. Not even the PRC makes that claim.

I also noted it didn't technically transfer territory, only said a declaration would be implemented that says it must be transferred. That it created an armistice rather than peace does not mean it wasn't a treaty. Also I was not citing rules but definitions, which certainly are legitimate as otherwise the clause stating it isn't retroactive would be meaningless. Obviously the definitions applied to agreements before that one.
 
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