• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

China overtakes Japan as world's #2 economy

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503983_162-20012188-503983.html said:
China has "in fact" overtaken Japan as the world's second-largest economy, according to Yi Gang, China's top currency regulator. Yi, the director of the State Administration of Foreign Exchange and the deputy governor of China's central bank, the People's Bank of China, made the claim near the end of an interview posted on SAFE's Web site (Chinese).

Asked whether China's economy will falter, Yi said no, claiming "China, in fact, is now already the world's second-largest economy," although he didn't back it up with any data. What he wanted to make clear was that as China's status rises, a gradual slowdown is inevitable - its GDP can't keep ballooning 9 or 10 percent every decade.

Projections by the World Bank have shown that China is on course to overtake the U.S. as the number one economy of the world sometime around 2025, and it was already widely known that it came close to surpassing Japan in 2009. What Yi put into perspective was that China's economy has grown 9.5 percent in the past 30 years, and even if it tires to 7 or 8 percent in the next decade, and 5 or 6 percent the decade after that, it would still have achieved 50 years of boom, which he calls "unprecedented in human history."
Here is the direct source in Reuters that confirms this development:
China overtakes Japan as No.2 economy: FX chief | Reuters

Business people in Europe are now starting to learn Mandarin as part of their degrees as well as English; Chinese business is in every corner of the world, and their country continues to develop at an unprecedented rate. Although they have a capitalist economy, their government is fascist and totalitarian in nature.

Are we prepared for the political and economic implications if China becomes our primary supplier to our economy? Will we have to swallow our pride and increase our business with a government that is in opposition to our values?
 

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon
Dungeon Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
30,751
Reaction score
33,895
Location
Somewhere in Babylon...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Was bound to happen. But what I would say is Chinas economy is still based on the fact that we in the western world continue to buy the crap that they make. If supply for their goods goes down, their economy does too. I mean during the reseccion factories were closing down while there was till growth, if Chinas growth fell by more then 2% i bet there'd be a revolution :2razz:
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A revolution in China is the fanciful wet dream of war hawks and misguided activists, but the reality is that China's government is not some centralized dictatorship that could conceivably be overthrown or removed. This fact also belies the claim that they have a totalitarian and fascist system. Do not assume the system is static and unmoving either. It has been subjected to constant reform and they have a lot of good policies with regards to governance that you will not find in most Western democracies. These were largely implemented as a response to the Cultural Revolution to diminish the influence of individual personalities and officials in government and insure the orderly transition of power.
 

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A revolution in China is the fanciful wet dream of war hawks and misguided activists, but the reality is that China's government is not some centralized dictatorship that could conceivably be overthrown or removed.
Actually, it could be easily overthrown and removed if there was another revolution like in the past. Millions of people would die, which is typical of China's uprisings, but I assure you the government would fall.

This fact also belies the claim that they have a totalitarian and fascist system. Do not assume the system is static and unmoving either. It has been subjected to constant reform and they have a lot of good policies with regards to governance that you will not find in most Western democracies.
I agree it's not black and white but it is still illegal to openly question the government in any way, shape or form. Doing so leads to arrest of you and your family. That is totalitarianism and fascism no matter what way you slice it. Just because they are facists with a decent sense of policy making does not make them any less fascist. The public does not have input into what happens to their livelihood. If your neighbourhood is slated for demolition in one month, you best get out, because there is no appeals process.

These were largely implemented as a response to the Cultural Revolution to diminish the influence of individual personalities and officials in government and insure the orderly transition of power.
The cultural revolution was a big failure on Mao's part and he only did it because he was falling out of favor with the party, but I disagree that individual celebrity has been phased out of the party. Hu Jintao is the still the main man and the establishment of fixed precedessors mimics the formal imperial system.

You also have to look at what it is that defines fascism: staunch nationalism, right-wing conservative policy making, and total control over the population.
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,224
Reaction score
14,223
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
China will implode soon. Seeing China rise is a scary thing.
 

digsbe

Truth will set you free
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
May 13, 2009
Messages
20,224
Reaction score
14,223
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
How do you see that happening?
A communist economy is bound to implode. They are in a growth bubble, and when that bubble bursts they are going to be in serious trouble.
 

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon
Dungeon Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
30,751
Reaction score
33,895
Location
Somewhere in Babylon...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
A communist economy is bound to implode. They are in a growth bubble, and when that bubble bursts they are going to be in serious trouble.
If you think the Chinese economy is communist, you missed something Digsbe.
 

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
19,642
Reaction score
8,486
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
They have recently made more restrictions, but it is largely communist just like the country.
What the heck does that mean?

China is no more communist then France. It is not a democratic state, nor is it anywhere near being a fully open market economy. But given the amount of private ownership of both homes and business's in China it can no longer be considered a communist nation
 

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon
Dungeon Master
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
30,751
Reaction score
33,895
Location
Somewhere in Babylon...
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
They have recently made more restrictions, but it is largely communist just like the country.
I hate to say it, but I don't think you understand what a communist economy actually looks like. A communist economy isn't about "regulation". Regulation isn't inherently communist lol, unless you're a Congressional Republican. ;)

A real communist economy is referred to by the phrase "Command Economy".

The bubble you referred to in your first post is not a good word to describe the collapse of the Soviet Union. Under a Command Economy the government sets quotas for what will be built, and how many shall be built. As the Soviet Unions economy became more complex, the old quota system and outdated bureaucracy could not keep up. And so the economy stagnated because it was no longer making anything that people wanted. Now there are 1000 other factors, but its a good example of how the Chinese system bears no resemblance to a real Command Economy.
 
Last edited:

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A communist economy is bound to implode. They are in a growth bubble, and when that bubble bursts they are going to be in serious trouble.
It's not a communist economy and the government no longer employs a communist philosophy. China is more capitalist than the United States is. Even false advertising is not illegal there. Everything in China right now favors the corporation over the individual, EVERYTHING. If they are going to implode, it's because their capitalism is paving over the livelihood of individuals. They are the furthest thing from Communist I can think of.

Just because a government calls itself communist doesn't mean it actually is. And in any case, saying they will implode just because of the kind of government they have is not really good reasoning. The communists right now are towing the status quo and even though the people don't like living under a dictatorship, it's a dictatorship that is bringing them prosperity that they haven't seen in over a century.
 

ric27

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Messages
7,541
Reaction score
3,195
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I hate to say it, but I don't think you understand what a communist economy actually looks like. A communist economy isn't about "regulation". Regulation isn't inherently communist lol, unless you're a Congressional Republican. ;)
A lot of mumbo jumbo...

The point is your Chinese product costs are so much less because of a lot of factors that weight the balance. Depending on the product, they may use slave labor. We don't. Even paid labor is paid far less than what our workers are paid. Communist China provides "free medical care" and "retirement" benefits that would be unacceptable to our people. What we provide costs more, but is superior. The fact is, it would be illegal to run a business in the US the way it is run in China.
 

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
19,642
Reaction score
8,486
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
A lot of mumbo jumbo...

The point is your Chinese product costs are so much less because of a lot of factors that weight the balance. Depending on the product, they may use slave labor. We don't. Even paid labor is paid far less than what our workers are paid. Communist China provides "free medical care" and "retirement" benefits that would be unacceptable to our people. What we provide costs more, but is superior. The fact is, it would be illegal to run a business in the US the way it is run in China.
China does not provide free medical care

Since the founding of the People's Republic of China, the goal of health care programs has been to provide care to every member of the population and to make maximum use of limited health-care personnel, equipment, and financial resources.[citation needed]

China is undertaking a reform on its health care system, which was largely privatized in the 1990s. The New Rural Co-operative Medical Care System (NRCMCS), is a new 2005 initiative to overhaul the healthcare system, particularly intended to make it more affordable for the rural poor. Under the NRCMCS, the annual cost of medical cover is 50 yuan (US$7) per person. Of that, 20 yuan is paid in by the central government, 20 yuan by the provincial government and a contribution of 10 yuan is made by the patient. As of September 2007, around 80% of the whole rural population of China had signed up (about 685 million people). The system is tiered, depending on the location. If patients go to a small hospital or clinic in their local town, the scheme will cover from 70-80% of their bill. If they go to a county one, the percentage of the cost being covered falls to about 60%. And if they need specialist help in a large modern city hospital, they have to bear most of the cost themselves, the scheme would cover about 30% of the bill.[48]
Universal health care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for pensions

Asia Times Online :: China Business News - China's pension system faces major reform

A large number of current retirees who began work before the pension scheme was introduced in 1997 have to depend on the state to contribute to their pension accounts. As a result, some less developed provinces have been transferring money from younger and middle-aged workers' individual accounts to pay for current retirees' pensions, causing a huge shortfall in individual pension accounts. Government officials told the China Daily last year that about 600 billion yuan from the accounts of today's workers has been used to pay current retirees' pensions.

Since the 1990s, China has gradually abandoned the cradle-to-grave welfare provided by the state, which in fact was paid by the working population. Before then, work units provided people with housing, medical care, kindergarten education and, ultimately, a retirement stipend. Replacing it is a new system that combines mutual-help social pensions with individual retirement accounts.

While current retirees don't have to worry about getting their pension, it is widely suspected that 20 years down the road, retirees will not get their promised pensions.

Because of the one-child policy and with more people living longer, the aging segment is claiming an ever larger proportion of the population. This means that fewer workers support more pensioners. Today the official retirement age for men is 60, for women 55. China has 134 million people aged 60 or older, accounting for 10% of the total population. By 2050, it is estimated that one in three Chinese will have reached retirement age.

Now China has three main ways of obtaining social-security funds: through government allocation, welfare lotteries, and investment funds. The government-managed funds have a low yearly yield of 3-4%. The Ministry of Finance, MLSS, and the People's Bank of China have approved investing pension funds overseas beginning May 1. The National Council for Social Security Fund is currently recruiting candidates to manage overseas funds. Corporations that have at least six years' asset management experience and have managed assets of not less than $5 billion qualify.

Chinese do get paid a huge amount less per month then Americans, and generally work far longer hours as well. Wages have been increasing in the coastal area's in the Pearl River Delta area, the regoins around Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong though with average wages being around $10 000. Western provinces like Hunan or further west are much lower in the $2000-3000 range per year
 

Demon of Light

Bohemian Revolutionary
DP Veteran
Joined
May 7, 2010
Messages
5,095
Reaction score
1,544
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Actually, it could be easily overthrown and removed if there was another revolution like in the past.
No it could not. At the time of the Chinese Civil War the government was so fractured that it made the actions of the CCP possible. I would not rule out mass protest actions, but revolution is far from plausible.

I agree it's not black and white but it is still illegal to openly question the government in any way, shape or form. Doing so leads to arrest of you and your family. That is totalitarianism and fascism no matter what way you slice it. Just because they are facists with a decent sense of policy making does not make them any less fascist. The public does not have input into what happens to their livelihood.
If that weren't a whole lot of BS you'd be right. Many people do openly question the government without consequence. Some of the laws do infringe on freedom of speech, specifically laws regarding forms of libel against government, but if someone sticks to the facts and what is publicly available they cannot be brought up on any charges. If you look at prominent people who have been arrested typically it is after they have made spurious claims or revealed something considered a state secret.

While obviously China should loosen these restrictions too much is made of this by foreign media and human rights groups. There is censorship, but anyone who knows anything about U.S. history would know media blackouts and censorship are hardly alien to a democratic country.

Torture, corruption, and abuse of power are just as if not more rampant in India compared to China, but the whole word praises them as a democracy just because their system is like ours.

If your neighbourhood is slated for demolition in one month, you best get out, because there is no appeals process.
The hell there isn't. Not only is there an appeals process the Supreme Court has the right to directly intervene in lower court cases. As far as demolitions the real issue there is inadequate compensation, since most countries have some form of eminent domain that lets the State take your land for one project or another. There is a lot of open criticism in the media of policies in this regard and there has been open criticism of the frequency of torture, which is illegal in China, in the prison system and by police.

The cultural revolution was a big failure on Mao's part and he only did it because he was falling out of favor with the party, but I disagree that individual celebrity has been phased out of the party. Hu Jintao is the still the main man and the establishment of fixed precedessors mimics the formal imperial system.
You are looking at foreign media to decide that. I get tired of people calling Mao a dictator when he wasn't. Ever since the end of the Chinese Civil War there has never been an instance of a single individual dominating government. There is a top leader generally, but that is hardly unusual. Even at the highest level people in the party have had to balance several others with divergent interests and considerable power of their own. It's partly why the Cultural Revolution was a big failure. Mao had already lost a lot of support with the failure of his policies in the 50's and the chaotic Red Guards only made it worse. Neither he, nor his supporters, had the influence to go after the high-level people resisting his attempted changes. Hu Jintao does not even have that kind of influence.

You also have to look at what it is that defines fascism: staunch nationalism, right-wing conservative policy making, and total control over the population.
China does not have total control and none of this is a defining feature of fascism.
 
Last edited:

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
China will implode soon. Seeing China rise is a scary thing.
It wouldn't be scary had it a government that at least is more transparant and shares at least some of our values -- those being human rights, democracy, and the international rule of law. Japan's rise scared a lot of people and while they don't share all of our values (their rise was due partly to their using economic policies that are an anathema to the west and amount really to a neo-mercantilist policy that is common in this part of the world) they do share the values most important to the international community. China does NOT share any of those values AND they practice a Japanese-style neo-mercantilist policy to boot.
 

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
19,642
Reaction score
8,486
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Only 15??? The transformation started 32 years ago with the original Four Modernizations...
While the transformation may have started after Mao died, they have been slow as to ensure stability, while encouraging growth. The point at which it stopped being a "communist" nation is debatable. I would say some time in the 90s myself
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
While the transformation may have started after Mao died, they have been slow as to ensure stability, while encouraging growth. The point at which it stopped being a "communist" nation is debatable. I would say some time in the 90s myself
I won't disagree with that, but I just felt it was important to note that the transformation started in 1978 with Deng Hsiaoping's Four Modernizations...
 

Lord Tammerlain

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
19,642
Reaction score
8,486
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
I won't disagree with that, but I just felt it was important to note that the transformation started in 1978 with Deng Hsiaoping's Four Modernizations...
I am rather excited at the moment as I will be travelling to Shanghai in a week for the expo (first time in China). I want to see the only commercial maglev train in operation among other things
 

Orion

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
8,083
Reaction score
3,918
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I am rather excited at the moment as I will be travelling to Shanghai in a week for the expo (first time in China). I want to see the only commercial maglev train in operation among other things
The maglev is cool... although I find when I'm on it, my limbs start to tingle. I've never been sure what that's from. It goes 430km/hr :) I guess that could be it!

I wish I was there for the expo but oh well. :) Have fun and take lots of pics!
 

ludahai

Defender of the Faith
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
10,320
Reaction score
2,115
Location
Taichung, Taiwan - 2017 East Asian Games Candidate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I am rather excited at the moment as I will be travelling to Shanghai in a week for the expo (first time in China). I want to see the only commercial maglev train in operation among other things
Try to get off the beaten path. Don't spend all of your time in Pudong. Try to get into the old city in Puxi if you really want to experience what modicum of traditional China that still exists in Shanghai...
 

jujuman13

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
4,075
Reaction score
579
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A communist economy is bound to implode. They are in a growth bubble, and when that bubble bursts they are going to be in serious trouble.
This may well be true if they had a Communist economy.
However, the Chinese Economy may be many things, one thing it is most emphatically not is Communist.
 

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
19,883
Reaction score
5,120
Location
0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
They have recently made more restrictions, but it is largely communist just like the country.
You do realize that if you define the PRC as Communist in terms of economics, then the US is far more Communist then the PRC is.

China is arguebly the most capitalistic country in the world right now.
 
Top Bottom