China: On Top of the World

[ludahai]

Talk about hijacking a thread. Kelsie would be proud.

:2wave:

 

[SKILMATIC]

X-men characters?

Yep. :2razz: :2wave:

 

[MSgt]

That's true, but, Superman is an alien, Batman is but a mere mortal. Batman can't even hold a candle to Supe's abilities.

No doubt, but bravery belongs to Batman. After all, he can be hurt. What does Superman have to fear? They made him so powerful a character they had to create aliens for him to fight.

 

[MSgt]

Talk about hijacking a thread. Kelsie would be proud.

:2wave:

The thread is less frustrating now....on to the rest of them!

 

[SKILMATIC]

You got that right, lol

 

[kal-el]

No doubt, but bravery belongs to Batman. After all, he can be hurt. What does Superman have to fear? They made him so powerful a character they had to create aliens for him to fight.

In fact, green kryptonite makes superman really weak, so he is not all powerful after all.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Ok since we are talking about superman I thin simon is going to close this thread to very soon.

 

[freethought6t9]

The Philippines was under threat of communist subversion. I don't know how old you are, but that was a bad time and there was real threats that the world was facing. Sometimes, you have to side with some bad people. If you know anything about Marcos, he didn't start out bad. He was initially an elected leader who seized control for the betterment of the country. Unfortunately, he was also the living epitomy of absolute power corrupts absolutely. However, consider the alternative?

Once again you oversimplify and heavily rely on U.S. interpretation of history. U.S. intervention began in the 19th century and it was in the past a commonwealth of the U.S. As to Marcos being elected, I'm sure you could publish a fairly substantive list of rulers 'elected' by U.S. mandate in 'sovereign' nations. The Phillipines is another example not only of Pre-war Imperialism, but Post-way hyper-imperialism, or neo-imperialism, although hegemony was always my favourite term. And the influence of 'communism' can as usual be found as local support for land reform and nationalisation.

I can speak of Taiwan more than any other because I live in Taiwan. What human rights abuses are you talking about? Human rights are protected by law. If a person is guilty of abusing someone's rights, they go to jail. The government doesn't abuse people's rights anymore. In fact, Taiwan has one of the most open democratic systems anywhere in the world with an aggressive media culture that uncovers problems and forces the government to react to them. Taiwan has no fewer than SIX 24-hour news channels.

Human rights occurred during martial law, but like Taiwan, there was a huge military threat nearby. Like Taiwan, do you honestly think South Korea would have been better under Communist rule?

My point wasn't the abuses going on now which are light, 'normal' for industrialised nations. I was referring to the decades lived under martial law. Human rights abuses that do occur include police abuse and torture, unlawful detention and executions. As I say, light or 'normal' for industrialised nations. I was simply saying that the situation has improved is indicative of the past. Since you live there, you can enlighten SKILMATIC on the history of KMT rule in the province. And what you or I think is irrelevant. It is not our country, we have no say in the political process. If democracy is being denied, and if we are to install a democracy, fine. This is not what the U.S. does though, it subverts the process or if this is impossible intervenes militarily.

Taiwan as you know is a strange and complicated matter. U.S. support can be justified in some instances, but throughout it's history the U.S. has been lacking in support at crucial times. I'll let you fill SKILS in on the finer details, not only are you probably more informed than I, you have a unique cultural perspective.

I don't think U.S. influence was beneficial to Fillipinos, Korea was an unmitigated disaster in many senses and as for Taiwan, well it has undoubtedly had positive effects for the former rulers of China, I'm not sure if the Chinese and Taiwanese would have really noticed which dictatorship was in place. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[ludahai]

Once again you oversimplify and heavily rely on U.S. interpretation of history. U.S. intervention began in the 19th century and it was in the past a commonwealth of the U.S. As to Marcos being elected, I'm sure you could publish a fairly substantive list of rulers 'elected' by U.S. mandate in 'sovereign' nations. The Phillipines is another example not only of Pre-war Imperialism, but Post-way hyper-imperialism, or neo-imperialism, although hegemony was always my favourite term. And the influence of 'communism' can as usual be found as local support for land reform and nationalisation.

I am quite familiar with the history of the U.S. in the Philippines from the time that the Spanish surrendered the territory to the United States in the 1898 Treaty of Paris. The Philippines was the only substantive overseas territory the United States ever possessed, and despite some problems along the way, the U.S. was one of the most enlightened colonial powers in the history of the earth. No other Southeast Asian country (outside of Siam) had more self-rule in the first half of the twentieth century than the Philippines had. The U.S. developed an education second to none in Southeast Asia. Unlike many other SE Asian colonies, the Philippines didn't have to fight for independence from its colonial power and the U.S. trained native Philippinos to run the government. The Philippines also maintained good relations with the United States following the granting of independence.

My point wasn't the abuses going on now which are light, 'normal' for industrialised nations. I was referring to the decades lived under martial law. Human rights abuses that do occur include police abuse and torture, unlawful detention and executions. As I say, light or 'normal' for industrialised nations. I was simply saying that the situation has improved is indicative of the past. Since you live there, you can enlighten SKILMATIC on the history of KMT rule in the province. And what you or I think is irrelevant. It is not our country, we have no say in the political process. If democracy is being denied, and if we are to install a democracy, fine. This is not what the U.S. does though, it subverts the process or if this is impossible intervenes militarily.

Taiwan as you know is a strange and complicated matter. U.S. support can be justified in some instances, but throughout it's history the U.S. has been lacking in support at crucial times. I'll let you fill SKILS in on the finer details, not only are you probably more informed than I, you have a unique cultural perspective.

I don't think U.S. influence was beneficial to Fillipinos, Korea was an unmitigated disaster in many senses and as for Taiwan, well it has undoubtedly had positive effects for the former rulers of China, I'm not sure if the Chinese and Taiwanese would have really noticed which dictatorship was in place. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

First of all, do not show gross ignorance (or pro-ChiCom sympathies) by referring to Taiwan as a province as Taiwan was never given to China following World War II in a legally binding peace treaty as is required under international law.

As for the KMT, they illegally took over Taiwan after initially accepting the surrender of Japanese forces in 1945. They were supposed to occupy the islands on behalf of the Allies pending the peace treaty, which wasn't signed until 1951. In 1947, there was a massacre of Taiwanese by the KMT which numbered anywhere between 20 and 40 thousand dead (28,000 seems to be the most accepted number). The KMT fled with all of its government apparatus to Taiwan in 1949 despite the fact that Taiwan was not Chinese territory, Taiwan didn't have representation in the ROC government and Taiwan wasn't permitted to send delegates to the Constitutional Convention in Nanjing in 1946/47.

The United States didn't install the Chiang KaiShek government, but it supported it because Taiwan was an important stalwart against Communism in Asia. It was the only Asian country who insisted on signing a MUTUAL defense pact with the United States (unlike Japan and South Korea which signed pacts proving for U.S. defense of those countries, but no reciprocity.) I am not defending the KMT government in Taiwan because they were brutal, however, they would have been preferable to the Communists.

There was significant U.S. cultural influence, even after U.S. soldiers left the country in 1979. This being more open in the 1980s, and knowledge of what was happening in the Philippines, plus some behind the scenes nudging of Chiang ChingKuo by President Reagan led to a largely peaceful transition from martial law (which ended in 1987) to the first presidential election by universal suffrage in 1996. If the Communists were in charge in Taiwan during this same period of time, do you honestly think you would have seen this change that occurred in Taiwan?