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China didn't understand Capitalism, and got it all wrong

Kurmugeon

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Just some food for thought about China and Investment... and a few things about what it means when pro-China Americans Criticize Capitalism.

ht tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ja8gH7Vjc



China got real-estate investing all wrong, because they don't have a natural progression of experience in the process, and attempted to just jump into it by fiat command economy methods.

Yet another example of how Collectivism isn't the panacea that lefties claim it will be.

We had our own real-estate bubble, but at least the housing had electricity, water and sewer.

But then there is the American-Leftie push for all-electric cars... without a enough generating capacity to charge them... or enough power and fresh water to remediate the toxic battery packs that weigh 2000+ lbs, leak toxins unless reprocessed, last just 18 months, and cost $15K to replace!

Did you know that reprocessing a single battery pack takes 50K gallons of fresh water!? The process also takes five times more energy than the gasoline which would run the average gasoline car for 10 years.

If we don't reprocess the dead batteries, they will pile up, leak, contaminate the ground water, and cause cancer, birth defects, and kill wildelife.

So, we seem to be having a bit of problems with realistic science evaluation instead of power and profit politics masquerading as science... just like the covid19 vaccine side effects...

Maybe, just maybe, a command economy is a bad idea!

The Lefties, worldwide, have much to answer for.

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Antiwar

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Did you know that reprocessing a single battery pack takes 50K gallons of fresh water!? The process also takes five times more energy than the gasoline which would run the average gasoline car for 10 years.

Do you have credible sources to back up your claims?
 

Kurmugeon

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The problem with lithium-ion batteries is that they are based on chemistry much different than the lithium ore.

Lithium ore is silicates with small amounts of lithium mixed into it, so you can roast the ore an the lithium puddles out long before the silicates become a liquid or gas. (There are other techniques as well.)

But not the dead batteries, which are largely made of plastics, or CHON, Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen, just like humans are...

Lithium is useful as battery element because of its high reactivity, combined with its light weight.

So, if you attempt to "Roast" smelt the batteries, the lithium doesn't melt at temperatures that have long turned all the CHON into gases carrying in small part, the toxic, active lithium. The CHON gases are so toxic, you don't dare burn them, or let even the smallest amount escape the process.

So, you have to mechanically shred the batteries, and then acid-base reduction techniques to leach out the Lithium.

Hence it is much, much more water and energy intensive to recover the lithium from dead batteries, than it is to get the lithium from silicate ores.




We do not currently have ANY facility for reprocessing large car lithium batteries.

Flywheel or liquefied AIR energy are much better alternatives for commuter vehicle energy storage.

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TypicalRussian

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lmao are you kidding. China is winning
 

Antiwar

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Flywheel or liquefied AIR energy are much better alternatives for commuter vehicle energy storage.

That may or may not be the case. Energy, fuels, pollution, etc, etc are very complex issues that hardcore scientists work on.
 

Antiwar

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IER is probably better called a stink tank:

The Institute for Energy Research (IER), founded in 1989 from a predecessor non-profit organization registered by Charles G. Koch and Robert L. Bradley Jr., advocates positions on environmental issues including deregulation of utilities, climate change denial, and claims that conventional energy sources are virtually limitless.

 

Kurmugeon

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That may or may not be the case. Energy, fuels, pollution, etc, etc are very complex issues that hardcore scientists work on.

I worked for 30 years in R&D military system development. I spent 5 years developing power supplies for DEW systems. (Directed Energy Weapons).

I helped design, build and test a 20K lbs battery power pack. It was so dangerous, we dismantled it after a few preliminary tests, because the local fire depart insisted, after a portion of it caught fire, and the toxic fumes hurt a number of people.

We replaced it with a Liquid Air viscus turbine system that worked very well.

I've done the Scientist / Engineer thang...

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Mr Person

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How is China an economic threat if they ****ed up capitalism, @Kurmugeon?

I just want the general picture before I insult myself with wasted time.
 

Antiwar

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I worked for 30 years in R&D military system development. I spent 5 years developing power supplies for DEW systems. (Directed Energy Weapons).

I helped design, build and test a 20K lbs battery power pack. It was so dangerous, we dismantled it after a few preliminary tests, because the local fire depart insisted, after a portion of it caught fire, and the toxic fumes hurt a number of people.

We replaced it with a Liquid Air viscus turbine system that worked very well.

I've done the Scientist / Engineer thang...

-

I did a bit of the scientist-engineer thing, too. Lots of people have and do.
 

Mr Person

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But then there is the American-Leftie push for all-electric cars... without a enough generating capacity to charge them... or enough power and fresh water to remediate the toxic battery packs that weigh 2000+ lbs, leak toxins unless reprocessed, last just 18 months, and cost $15K to replace!

Did you know that reprocessing a single battery pack takes 50K gallons of fresh water!? The process also takes five times more energy than the gasoline which would run the average gasoline car for 10 years.

If we don't reprocess the dead batteries, they will pile up, leak, contaminate the ground water, and cause cancer, birth defects, and kill wildelife.

Even if that's 100% true (lol), how does it defeat the long-term benefits resulting from ever-more efficient technology?

The Wright brothers didn't land on the moon. Baby steps, with careful study. That's how it's done.
 

Kurmugeon

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Another possible energy storage system is a thermal slug, made from soft annealed iron, heated in all but winter, by Solar Cells on the roof, driving high frequency magnetic induction, for southwestern climates. This can be used to augment the storage of the liquefied air by expanding the gases before going to the turbine. So, while you're working, assuming a daytime shift, your car recharges itself without being plugged in.

There are lots of concepts for energy storage with do not rely upon toxic batteries.
 

post

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Just some food for thought about China and Investment... and a few things about what it means when pro-China Americans Criticize Capitalism.

-snip-

So, we seem to be having a bit of problems with realistic science evaluation instead of power and profit politics masquerading as science... just like the covid19 vaccine side effects...

Maybe, just maybe, a command economy is a bad idea!

The Lefties, worldwide, have much to answer for.

-

EPA moves to crack down on dangerous coal ash storage ponds​

https://federalnewsnetwork.com › ... › Government News

Jan 11, 2022 — U.S. coal plants produce about 100 million tons (90 million metric tons) annually of ash and other waste. The Obama administration regulated ...

Coal Ash Basics | US EPA​

https://www.epa.gov › coalash › coal-ash-basics

Mar 6, 2022 — According to the American Coal Ash Association's Coal Combustion Product Production & Use Survey Report, nearly 130 million tons of coal was generated in 2014.

Georgia Power plans to phase out coal, but coal ash ... - WABE​

https://www.wabe.org › georgia-power-plans-to-phase-...

5 days ago — According to Georgia Power, it has about 90 million tons of coal ash around the state, and it expects its program to close all of its coal ...

Plant Vogtle cost doubles to $28.5 billion as other owners balk​

https://www.augustachronicle.com › news › 2021/11/04

Nov 4, 2021 — The cost of two nuclear reactors being built in Georgia is now $28.5 billion, more than twice the original price tag.

$30B Georgia Power nuclear plant delayed up to 6 more months​

Associated Press | AP
February 17th, 2022

The project above is still "goin' " but its twin got canceled...


... arose from the abandonment of the Virgil C. Summer nuclear expansion project in South Carolina by South Carolina Electric & Gas and the South Carolina Public Service Authority in 2017. ..Before its termination, the expansion was considered the harbinger of a national nuclear renaissance. Under joint ownership, the two utilities collectively invested $9 billion into the construction of two nuclear reactors ..until 2017. ..

In 2008, the utilities contracted with Westinghouse to build two AP1000 nuclear reactors for an estimated cost of $9.8 billion.... In 2017, the estimated construction cost had grown to $25 billion. Westinghouse, hobbled by the costs of both the V. C. Summer expansion and a separate project in Georgia, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in March 2017. Several months later the project was abandoned by Santee Cooper and SCANA. ..
...So far, there have been three arrests and one conviction related to the V.C. Summer failure. The U.S. Attorney's office in South Carolina is still investigating SCANA and Westinghouse executives. . ..On June 10, 2021, a former vice president of Westinghouse was arrested for lying to federal investigators. Further, on October 7, 2021, a SCANA executive was sentenced to two years in prison."
 

post

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Continued from my last post...

The comparison here to the recent construction cost of a natural gas fueled power plant project about 200 miles
distant from this nuclear power fiasco is 9 to 1, not to mention the opportunity costs of investment between 2005 and 2022
producing no billable product until at least second quarter, 2022 and at only 50 percent output considering final half of
this expansion will not come online until a year later. -snip-
560 megawatts
gas fired = $820 million max. construction costs
2250 megawatts nuclear fueled = $28 billion construction costs, and rising

www.augustachronicle.com

Writer: Georgia's PSC setup makes Vogtle bad business for customers

State plagued by utility regulation model, Washington policy expert says
www.augustachronicle.com
July 22, 2021
"...More:With Plant Vogtle nearer to completion, Georgia Power seeks to recoup capital costs

The total price tag for the 2,250-megawatt project has now ballooned to $25 billion, with Georgia Power’s portion of the cost increasing from a $6.1 billion estimate to over $11.1 billion today. For comparison’s sake, Duke Energy built 560 megawatts of combined cycle natural gas capacity at the new Asheville, North Carolina, power plant for less than $820 million, illustrating the high opportunity cost of Georgia Power’s Vogtle adventure. And while Georgians are now all but inured to bad Vogtle news, real harm is being done: The cost to each Georgia Power household has now climbed to more than $850, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution..."

www.duke-energy.com

Asheville Combined Cycle Station

Duke Energy’s new 560-megawatt combined-cycle natural gas plant at the Asheville site paves a new path for cleaner and smarter energy for our’ customers.
www.duke-energy.com

Asheville Combined Cycle Station - Duke Energy​

"Duke Energy's new Asheville Combined Cycle Station in Arden, N.C., is operational and capable of producing 560 megawatts of cleaner, more efficient energy to serve customers in North Carolina and South Carolina. The new station generates enough energy to serve about 450,000 homes..."
. -snip- ..."


 

tacomancer

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Is this thread about state capitalism or batteries?
 

PoS

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How is China an economic threat if they ****ed up capitalism, @Kurmugeon?

I just want the general picture before I insult myself with wasted time.
You insult yourself every time you post. :ROFLMAO:
 

Kurmugeon

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Is this thread about state capitalism or batteries?
Both of course! Because they are deeply connected! Particularly in America at this point in time!


It is also about how Leftist policies are often very short sighted and manipulative, without taking a careful look at the entire life cycle and costs, and engineering economies, not just the fiscal and political economy. For instance: Maintenance Costs, Disposal Costs, Energy Economy ( A solar cell consumes 2X as much energy to manufacture as it makes over its life time!), Safety Economy (How much will it cost to outfit all firestations with wet sand casting fire trucks to extinguish lithium battery car fires? ), Toxin and Fire Hazard Comparisons, weight and center of gravity issues....

There are many economies and considerations used by engineers.

The collectivist command economies usually take a very narrow, political, and emotional view of what are very complicated design trade-offs. China's communist government has shown it doesn't have the experience in Capitalism, to do it in a way that works.

The American Left are showing that they know so little about engineering of vehicles, that they knee jerk selected Lithium battery cars, which are likely to end up being the biggest environmental disaster in world history!

And... there are much better options than batteries.

Politicians don't make good engineers!

-
 

Kurmugeon

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To be fair, looking at Jimmy Carter, Engineers don't make good Politicians either...

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