Child Support - Moral Dilemma

[Joe51]

I'm really tempted to say that if I didn't need the money I wouldn't have pursued it, especially if it left her near destitute. But having never been in the situation I don't know

Don't know anything about divorce law but custodial parents do pretty routinely go to court to get child support. I suppose you could go back and ask for less. Maybe just give it back to her on the side or create a rainy day fund if she hits on hard times

I probably wouldn't have if I had known what it was all about. I just wanted her to help out with doctors bills, dentist, optometrist, etc. I tried to work it out with her before going to the courts, but she told me she would only help through the courts. I gave her several chances to change her mind. It was her choice. Once the judge gets involved, it's his way. He's got a chart to go by, and a set of statutes to follow, and that's it. I can't believe it. The look on her face was priceless. Maybe it's wrong to take pleasure in that, but she really put the kids and I through quite a bit of turmoil. It was nice to have a win for once.

I see both sides of this coin.

On one hand, she had kids, why should she expect someone else to bear all the financial responsibility for them. She's a grown woman, knows how to walk and ride a bike. What makes it okay to play mom, but never put your money into it.

On the other hand it's hard to make rent and bills when a third of your salary is gone before you even see it.

It's a bad situation all the way around, and 2 kids are caught in the middle wondering what the hell happened to their nice little life.

Anyway, I like your signature. I've been saying that prayer for a while.

 

[soot]

That takes courage and dedication, I know. As for my ex, those are two words I would never use to describe her...

They aren't words that anyone would have used to describe me either a couple of months after putting the booze down. It takes time to change.

Any advice on actions to look for? I mean like subtle things she wouldn't think to hide from me.

I would say it isn't going to so much be the things she wouldn't think to hide from you that give the lying and pretending away (assuming she does lie and pretend, I'm not saying that it will happen, just that it isn't at all uncommon).

What I'd look for are personality and behavioral changes that make you think, "Who is this person, and what has she done with my ex wife".

Things, and I'm just spitballing here, like her coming to you and telling you that she was wrong for not paying child support, and telling you that not only is she going to do the best she can to have it in the mail every month, but that she's also going to make an effort to make good on however much she is in arrears for, maybe starting to demonstrate a real and potentially unprecedented interest in what is actually best for you and the children, maybe the ability to have a very heated disagreement with you without becoming bitter, vindictive, defensive, loud, or things like that, assuming she was any of those things to begin with.

If that makes sense.

I'm not saying to be on the lookout for red flags, but rather signs, behaviors, attitudes, and like that, which starts to make you think that she's actually becoming someone you'll look forward to having over your house and around your friends and family and especially the kids when you're throwing a birthday party for one of them, or at Christmas dinner, that kind of thing.

Someone who might never be your best friend again, but someone you'll be happy to call a friend because she's putting as much in to the relationship as she's getting out of it.

 

[justabubba]

I feel in a moral dilemma, so I thought strangers on the internet might provide me some perspective. Though it's a long story, I will try my best to keep it brief. Thanks to all who read and comment.

My ex and I divorced 3 years ago after 12 years of marriage. She developed a drinking problem, and had an affair. I am hard to live with and stubborn.

Initial custody for our children was setup as joint custody no support. Then she let her drinking problem get the best of her, and put the children in a bad situation. I filed for emergency custody, and was eventually granted sole custody. Still no support was awarded.

I've been telling her about co-pays, dentist appointments, prescriptions, etc. that kids need, and I buy. She never helped out once, and even chastised me for only contacting her when I need money. So, I went through my state agency and sued for child support. I easily make twice what she does every month, and she barely makes enough to keep her lights on. Even still, I felt like she should have some responsibility to the kids. I didn't expect much. I was just hoping to compel her to pay at least part of the expenses for the kids.

Apparently the judge agreed that she needed to be responsible. He awarded me a full third of every paycheck she gets, back payment till the time I took sole custody, and all court costs.

Now that the back story is out there - here is my dilemma. I could get by completely without her help. It's really only a quality of life issue. We are going to have a better life if she was helping out. Apparently the purpose of child support is to maintain the kids quality of life they would have had if the parents had never split up. I like that plan, but in doing so, I know I am putting their mom in a really tough position financially. She's going to have to make some real sacrifices and/or changes to meet her obligations now and still be able to live.

So what are the thoughts of the community? Make her pay? Back off? What would you do?

where most might be bitter you seem compassionate
sounds like the monthly child support check is now largely discretionary income for your family of three
an earlier suggestion to establish a savings account for the kids' college needs seems to be a good recommendation for a place to park extra money
and the state/court's system continues to monitor your ex's payments; don't think that is something i would want to disrupt
your concern for your kids' mother's living situation is commendable. they do not want to see their mom experiencing a hard time any more than they would want that for you. so, to an extent, you would be helping your kids by helping their mother. sending them to her with a little extra spending money in their pocket should lighten her burden and maybe provide the means to do things with the kids she could not otherwise afford
i would caveat this recommendation to insist this indirect monetary assistance should only be provided (1) if it is available to you without hardship; and (2) if all indications are she is on the straight and narrow. the last thing you want to do is fund a relapse
based on your post, i am betting you will do the right thing; whatever that might need to be

 

[Gaius46]

I probably wouldn't have if I had known what it was all about. I just wanted her to help out with doctors bills, dentist, optometrist, etc. I tried to work it out with her before going to the courts, but she told me she would only help through the courts. I gave her several chances to change her mind. It was her choice. Once the judge gets involved, it's his way. He's got a chart to go by, and a set of statutes to follow, and that's it. I can't believe it. The look on her face was priceless. Maybe it's wrong to take pleasure in that, but she really put the kids and I through quite a bit of turmoil. It was nice to have a win for once.

I see both sides of this coin.

On one hand, she had kids, why should she expect someone else to bear all the financial responsibility for them. She's a grown woman, knows how to walk and ride a bike. What makes it okay to play mom, but never put your money into it.

On the other hand it's hard to make rent and bills when a third of your salary is gone before you even see it.

It's a bad situation all the way around, and 2 kids are caught in the middle wondering what the hell happened to their nice little life.

Anyway, I like your signature. I've been saying that prayer for a while.

I'm sorry. I hope it works out in the end and everyone walks away at least in okay shape.

My sig is called "The Astronauts Prayer" and while words to that effect have been said for ages Alan Shepard is reputed to have whispered it to himself just before he launched into space.

I've said it a time or two myself.

 

[Joe51]

where most might be bitter you seem compassionate
sounds like the monthly child support check is now largely discretionary income for your family of three
an earlier suggestion to establish a savings account for the kids' college needs seems to be a good recommendation for a place to park extra money
and the state/court's system continues to monitor your ex's payments; don't think that is something i would want to disrupt
your concern for your kids' mother's living situation is commendable. they do not want to see their mom experiencing a hard time any more than they would want that for you. so, to an extent, you would be helping your kids by helping their mother. sending them to her with a little extra spending money in their pocket should lighten her burden and maybe provide the means to do things with the kids she could not otherwise afford
i would caveat this recommendation to insist this indirect monetary assistance should only be provided (1) if it is available to you without hardship; and (2) if all indications are she is on the straight and narrow. the last thing you want to do is fund a relapse
based on your post, i am betting you will do the right thing; whatever that might need to be

I appreciate the response. I like the idea of sending the kids with some spending money. I'm going to do that. If I knew the right thing, bubba, I wouldn't be posting here. I never wanted the broken home problems... so often there is not a "right thing". It's like voting for the president this year. Either way I'm going to up at night wondering if I should've made the other choice. Many issues since the divorce have been that way. For my friends that talk about and ask about divorce, I always give the same advice. DON'T! It would be one thing if you don't have kids and can just walk away. With children involved, every decision is hard, there's not any good options anymore, and somebody is going to get shafted.

 

[chuckiechan]

My best advice is to be a good dad. You may even qualify for some public assistance, and if you do, take it.

Probably the last thing you want is to be a good dad, have her clean up, get the kids, then go after you for support. And they will not credit arrears owed to you.

So keep looking forward. She either cleans up or doesn't. You can't change her.

Women deal with this all the time. You are the exception.

Keep on keepin' on, one foot after the other.

 

[MaggieD]

I feel in a moral dilemma, so I thought strangers on the internet might provide me some perspective. Though it's a long story, I will try my best to keep it brief. Thanks to all who read and comment.

My ex and I divorced 3 years ago after 12 years of marriage. She developed a drinking problem, and had an affair. I am hard to live with and stubborn.

Initial custody for our children was setup as joint custody no support. Then she let her drinking problem get the best of her, and put the children in a bad situation. I filed for emergency custody, and was eventually granted sole custody. Still no support was awarded.

I've been telling her about co-pays, dentist appointments, prescriptions, etc. that kids need, and I buy. She never helped out once, and even chastised me for only contacting her when I need money. So, I went through my state agency and sued for child support. I easily make twice what she does every month, and she barely makes enough to keep her lights on. Even still, I felt like she should have some responsibility to the kids. I didn't expect much. I was just hoping to compel her to pay at least part of the expenses for the kids.

Apparently the judge agreed that she needed to be responsible. He awarded me a full third of every paycheck she gets, back payment till the time I took sole custody, and all court costs.

Now that the back story is out there - here is my dilemma. I could get by completely without her help. It's really only a quality of life issue. We are going to have a better life if she was helping out. Apparently the purpose of child support is to maintain the kids quality of life they would have had if the parents had never split up. I like that plan, but in doing so, I know I am putting their mom in a really tough position financially. She's going to have to make some real sacrifices and/or changes to meet her obligations now and still be able to live.

So what are the thoughts of the community? Make her pay? Back off? What would you do?

Make her pay. Please remember that child support from both parents is your CHILD'S right...not yours. Start a college fund. Bank it for a down payment on a house for them...as a wedding gift made possible by their mom's support. Don't deprive her of the self-esteem she will gain by meeting her responsibilities.

You might accept less, but I think it's important she antes up.

 

[Tim the plumber]

I appreciate the reply. I'll keep that in my back pocket if she doesn't step up. As I sit here thinking about it, where it's at now, anything we do is going to have to go back through the courts. I don't want to give the judge the impression that I know better than he does. Every time back is another solid grand... lol. Even if she doesn't fight. That said, I'm sure I could have my attorney file for an agreement. If it would be granted or not is another matter. I just looked it up, and these things can only be reviewed every 3 years or if there is a significant change in income. I guess that makes my feelings on the matter irrelevant completely.

Child support is a wild crazy business. I'd hate to be on the wrong side of this deal. If I was paying, it would be almost 1k per month.... craziness. I think this system is really flawed.

Given that the system is flawed and not at all right for the purpose of actual human families I think you should be able to deal with this between you and your ex better than the court.

What would the judge actually do if you were to say "I know what your legal judgement has been but I want the mother of my children to be looking after them better and thus needs to look after herself better. Courts are right for business disputes but this is different and I don't want to treat the mother of my children as an enemy."

He can hardly attack you for any of that. The argument that the children need money more than they need a reasonably sober mother is extremely weak.

 

[justabubba]

Given that the system is flawed and not at all right for the purpose of actual human families I think you should be able to deal with this between you and your ex better than the court.

What would the judge actually do if you were to say "I know what your legal judgement has been but I want the mother of my children to be looking after them better and thus needs to look after herself better. Courts are right for business disputes but this is different and I don't want to treat the mother of my children as an enemy."

He can hardly attack you for any of that. The argument that the children need money more than they need a reasonably sober mother is extremely weak.

who made that argument?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

I feel in a moral dilemma, so I thought strangers on the internet might provide me some perspective. Though it's a long story, I will try my best to keep it brief. Thanks to all who read and comment.

My ex and I divorced 3 years ago after 12 years of marriage. She developed a drinking problem, and had an affair. I am hard to live with and stubborn.

Initial custody for our children was setup as joint custody no support. Then she let her drinking problem get the best of her, and put the children in a bad situation. I filed for emergency custody, and was eventually granted sole custody. Still no support was awarded.

I've been telling her about co-pays, dentist appointments, prescriptions, etc. that kids need, and I buy. She never helped out once, and even chastised me for only contacting her when I need money. So, I went through my state agency and sued for child support. I easily make twice what she does every month, and she barely makes enough to keep her lights on. Even still, I felt like she should have some responsibility to the kids. I didn't expect much. I was just hoping to compel her to pay at least part of the expenses for the kids.

Apparently the judge agreed that she needed to be responsible. He awarded me a full third of every paycheck she gets, back payment till the time I took sole custody, and all court costs.

Now that the back story is out there - here is my dilemma. I could get by completely without her help. It's really only a quality of life issue. We are going to have a better life if she was helping out. Apparently the purpose of child support is to maintain the kids quality of life they would have had if the parents had never split up. I like that plan, but in doing so, I know I am putting their mom in a really tough position financially. She's going to have to make some real sacrifices and/or changes to meet her obligations now and still be able to live.

So what are the thoughts of the community? Make her pay? Back off? What would you do?

Sounds like your ex-wife needs to man up and get a second job. They are her kids too and she needs to take financial responsibility. If that means she has to start waiting tables at night along with her full time job during the day, then so be it.

I grew up in poverty. After my parents divorced, my mom worked 2 and 3 jobs at once to raise us. She would go for months on end without a day off. I have no sympathy for a parent that does not take financial responsibility for their own kids.

 

[Joe51]

Make her pay. Please remember that child support from both parents is your CHILD'S right...not yours. Start a college fund. Bank it for a down payment on a house for them...as a wedding gift made possible by their mom's support. Don't deprive her of the self-esteem she will gain by meeting her responsibilities.

You might accept less, but I think it's important she antes up.

Thanks, Maggie. I was hoping to get a woman's perspective. Though I mostly agree with what you're saying, I doubt she takes pride in anything. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, thanks for dropping by. I always enjoy your posts.

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[Joe51]

Given that the system is flawed and not at all right for the purpose of actual human families I think you should be able to deal with this between you and your ex better than the court.

What would the judge actually do if you were to say "I know what your legal judgement has been but I want the mother of my children to be looking after them better and thus needs to look after herself better. Courts are right for business disputes but this is different and I don't want to treat the mother of my children as an enemy."

He can hardly attack you for any of that. The argument that the children need money more than they need a reasonably sober mother is extremely weak.

Hey, Tim. For whatever it's worth, I made every effort to work with her before involving the courts. I agree she and I could've come up with a better arrangement, but she thought her chances with the judge were better, I guess. That's why I am where I am now. Also, family court is not like common sense. If you've never had the privilege, just take my word for it. Common sense is not on the docket.

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[reinoe]

I feel in a moral dilemma, so I thought strangers on the internet might provide me some perspective. Though it's a long story, I will try my best to keep it brief. Thanks to all who read and comment.

My ex and I divorced 3 years ago after 12 years of marriage. She developed a drinking problem, and had an affair. I am hard to live with and stubborn.

Initial custody for our children was setup as joint custody no support. Then she let her drinking problem get the best of her, and put the children in a bad situation. I filed for emergency custody, and was eventually granted sole custody. Still no support was awarded.

I've been telling her about co-pays, dentist appointments, prescriptions, etc. that kids need, and I buy. She never helped out once, and even chastised me for only contacting her when I need money. So, I went through my state agency and sued for child support. I easily make twice what she does every month, and she barely makes enough to keep her lights on. Even still, I felt like she should have some responsibility to the kids. I didn't expect much. I was just hoping to compel her to pay at least part of the expenses for the kids.

Apparently the judge agreed that she needed to be responsible. He awarded me a full third of every paycheck she gets, back payment till the time I took sole custody, and all court costs.

Now that the back story is out there - here is my dilemma. I could get by completely without her help. It's really only a quality of life issue. We are going to have a better life if she was helping out. Apparently the purpose of child support is to maintain the kids quality of life they would have had if the parents had never split up. I like that plan, but in doing so, I know I am putting their mom in a really tough position financially. She's going to have to make some real sacrifices and/or changes to meet her obligations now and still be able to live.

So what are the thoughts of the community? Make her pay? Back off? What would you do?

Her quality of life shouldn't be your concern. You don't need the money but you can take her payments and put them into a CD that will grow over time.

 

[Joe51]

Sounds like your ex-wife needs to man up and get a second job. They are her kids too and she needs to take financial responsibility. If that means she has to start waiting tables at night along with her full time job during the day, then so be it.

I grew up in poverty. After my parents divorced, my mom worked 2 and 3 jobs at once to raise us. She would go for months on end without a day off. I have no sympathy for a parent that does not take financial responsibility for their own kids.

Southern Democrat, hello. I grew up poor with a single mother, also. Two younger brother, and a father that never gave a Damn. He sent $60 a week and considered his job done. Momma worked 60 to 80 hours a week, struggles, robbed Peter to pay Paul, and all three of us grew into productive well adjusted members of society. Momma is a queen. Sounds like yours was too. That's why I can't understand what's happened here, but it is what it is. Thanks for the reply.

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[Hawkeye10]

Her quality of life shouldn't be your concern. You don't need the money but you can take her payments and put them into a CD that will grow over time.

Usually I would agree understanding that we have a duty to ourselves to try to exit relationships with honor..... but she is the mother of his kids, she is going to be in his life at least till the youngest gets to be 18, and watching another suffer unnecessarily ain't fun times.

 

[Hawkeye10]

Usually I would agree understanding that we have a duty to ourselves to try to exit relationships with honor..... but she is the mother of his kids, she is going to be in his life at least till the youngest gets to be 18, and watching another suffer unnecessarily ain't fun times.

EDIT: but compared to the well being of the kids, ya, it does not matter much what her quality of life is, which is the point I was making a few days ago.

Shades of gray, not black and white, this situation is.

 

[Joe51]

EDIT: but compared to the well being of the kids, ya, it does not matter much what her quality of life is, which is the point I was making a few days ago.

Shades of gray, not black and white, this situation is.

Shades of gray for sure. After thinking about it a lot, I'm not going to give a pass. My mom never got one (thanks for reminding me southern dem). I'm going to use the money to add to my savings for the big expenses coming and just see how it goes. In a talk yesterday, she threatened to take me to court to go back to joint custody, so that helped seal the deal for me. I hope she never pays a dime, and I'll never have to worry about that. Nothing worse than saying good by to your kids for a week at a time over and over again.

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[Hawkeye10]

Shades of gray for sure. After thinking about it a lot, I'm not going to give a pass. My mom never got one (thanks for reminding me southern dem). I'm going to use the money to add to my savings for the big expenses coming and just see how it goes. In a talk yesterday, she threatened to take me to court to go back to joint custody, so that helped seal the deal for me. I hope she never pays a dime, and I'll never have to worry about that. Nothing worse than saying good by to your kids for a week at a time over and over again.

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Good luck.

THis sucks for sure, who can say if you should have been able to see it coming, sometimes people fall apart almost out of the blue.

I was reading a blog yesterday where a woman was telling about how her ex was literally yelling at her that she was 100% to blame for their broken marriage, as he was telling her that he wanted a divorce and has a girlfriend that he wants to marry, and as she was begging him to stay with her.

Nutty happens.

 

[reinoe]

Shades of gray for sure. After thinking about it a lot, I'm not going to give a pass. My mom never got one (thanks for reminding me southern dem). I'm going to use the money to add to my savings for the big expenses coming and just see how it goes. In a talk yesterday, she threatened to take me to court to go back to joint custody, so that helped seal the deal for me. I hope she never pays a dime, and I'll never have to worry about that. Nothing worse than saying good by to your kids for a week at a time over and over again.

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You're in a fortunate situation btw. In many cases like this the situation would have flipped around 100% with a drunken (or drug addicted) mother getting full custody rights and then the husband having to pay child support. Ridiculous divorce proceedings that always punish the man no matter what the circumstances are is what gave rise to the "Men's RIGHTS movement".

 

[Hawkeye10]

You're in a fortunate situation btw. In many cases like this the situation would have flipped around 100% with a drunken (or drug addicted) mother getting full custody rights and then the husband having to pay child support. Ridiculous divorce proceedings that always punish the man no matter what the circumstances are is what gave rise to the "Men's RIGHTS movement".

That is getting better, but the courts still do a very poor job of understanding the reality of these families and then making wise rulings.

Joe is right about that.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I'm really tempted to say that if I didn't need the money I wouldn't have pursued it, especially if it left her near destitute. But having never been in the situation I don't know

Don't know anything about divorce law but custodial parents do pretty routinely go to court to get child support. I suppose you could go back and ask for less. Maybe just give it back to her on the side or create a rainy day fund if she hits on hard times

she's choosing to be near destitute with substance abuse issues.

and she doesn't get to keep every penny she makes to herself when she chose to have kids and then endanger them with a substance issue forcing the other parent to care full time alone for them.

the actions you take have consequences.

 

[Joe51]

You're in a fortunate situation btw. In many cases like this the situation would have flipped around 100% with a drunken (or drug addicted) mother getting full custody rights and then the husband having to pay child support. Ridiculous divorce proceedings that always punish the man no matter what the circumstances are is what gave rise to the "Men's RIGHTS movement".

No doubt about it I am fortunate. When I found out what was going on, I was at her mercy. I knew the trouble I'd be in if I wasn't. So I took full blame for everything. (If you're married, full blame is never appropriate. I'll get back to that later. ) I moved her out, rented her place, and gave about 400 per month willingly to help her get set up and self sustainable. That's how I got joint custody to start with. Otherwise the situation you laid out probably would have happened. I kept supporting her until she moved in with her new boyfriend, then I had a hard talk with her about money and how to live. She rolled her eyes and kept partying. I hesitate to spell out details over the internet, but I will say at the end of her fun night, she was asking the kids who came and went and at what time.

Hopefully those days are gone, but family courts are a mess. I can't tell you how much I'd hate being on the other side while she drank and partied like she was. That would've likely led to some really poor decisions from me. Instead, I played the long game. Never over reacting, always being kind, and making sure to document everything. That really is the key.

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[Joe51]

she's choosing to be near destitute with substance abuse issues.

and she doesn't get to keep every penny she makes to herself when she chose to have kids and then endanger them with a substance issue forcing the other parent to care full time alone for them.

the actions you take have consequences.

I agree, totally. The consequences are at the root of the dilemma. 1/3 of the income seemed tough to live with, but I think my mind is set. Pay cuz you should, or don't, and I'll never have to worry about losing my babies. Win win for me.

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[EMNofSeattle]

I agree, totally. The consequences are at the root of the dilemma. 1/3 of the income seemed tough to live with, but I think my mind is set. Pay cuz you should, or don't, and I'll never have to worry about losing my babies. Win win for me.

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and as another poster said, whether or not you collect a dime is immaterial, just having the order means she can't credibly sue the kids back into her household if she's in arrears.

 

[Joe51]

and as another poster said, whether or not you collect a dime is immaterial, just having the order means she can't credibly sue the kids back into her household if she's in arrears.

So true. I actually hope I never collect a dime. That is the best case scenario for me. All I wanted was half the copycats (I carry insurance. Medical, dental, and vision), half the school expenses, and for her to buy some of the clothes. On a $350 medicine, She couldn't part with $20 for half the copay.... I'd better stop before I get mad again. Lol. Thanks again for everyone's perspective. I think I know how to sleep at night now.

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