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Child Support is an Artificial Social Policy

Celebrity

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You may have heard of the term "sexual market value," or seen this video called The Economics of Sex from The Austin Institute. The idea is that women and men both uniquely exchange something in an intimate relationship, including times before, during and after sex.


Men and women both enjoy sex. We all know that. But what's interesting is how the data tells us that men and women experience sex, differently.

Ideally, men and women agree on an exchange that is equitable and autonomous, meaning that neither party is forced against their will, and both parties feel that they have been fairly "compensated." This can mean different things for men and women, as all men are not the same and all women are not the same. In the video, some common sexual stereotypes are mentioned about how men and women approach sex differently, on average.

Women have the ability to create or not create children, while men do not, so child support is beneficial to child rearing women. Child support is not detrimental to women who do not birth children. Child support increases the supply of resources for women who have sex, while it increases the demand for resources for men who have sex. Some people view this as economic stimulation for both parties, since there is a "need" which is created, a "need" which was not previously there. It is not stimulation, but a cost in an exchange with a net gain that benefits the custodial party. The custodial party is, on average, a woman.

Child support is part of the reason why women are able to "value" themselves at a higher rank than men, as sexual partners in a society or "sexual economy." We sometimes say that men "marry into money," but women are expected to find (economic) stability in a sexual partner. We just call women who marry wealthy men "lucky girls," or perhaps "trophy wives." A woman always has the final say in what happens with "her body." Sometimes this has repercussions that extend beyond her own personal choices. The leverage that fertility gives a sexually active women is not limited to her ability to start a family; she also has the ability to end a family. By end a family, I do not mean to say that women are the destroyers of families, although it is sometimes true that men and women behave in this way. I mean that women can start families and end contact with family members at will, by forming a new family not socially connected to the old family.

How does this relate to sex? Child support comes from pregnancy, which comes from sex, which is an intimate exchange. When women have legal options above and beyond what men have, it is discriminatory of the male sex and unethical in a legal setting. An artificial social policy which tries to compensate for a child's need is no more justified than an artificial social policy which compensated for a plantation's need of labor during the Atlantic Slave Trade between the 15th and 19th century. This is a new form of artificial, involuntary servitude which is commonly justified by our cultural attachment to infants.

While men and women are valued differently by society, their sexual encounters are sometimes made public in order to reduce their sexual value. A woman who is called a "slut" may not be a slut. A man who is called a "stud" may not be a stud. A man and women who are ordered to compete in a court of law on different footing do so in the face of an injustice which neither of them can control.
 

RabidAlpaca

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Is there such a thing as a non-artificial or "natural" social policy? The policy exists in order to help children in single-parent homes avoid extreme poverty. Of course this can be abused, but to imply it was created to give women an extra tight grasp on a man's balls doesn't really follow.
 

Henrin

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Of course it's unnatural. It's a consequence of law, which by its very nature is created by humans. It is also a violation of human rights since it takes someones property against their will to benefit someone else.

It's also unfair since it binds men to care for children by just the act of sex, while women are given an out because apparently sex doesn't bind them to care for children.
 
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Is there such a thing as a non-artificial or "natural" social policy? The policy exists in order to help children in single-parent homes avoid extreme poverty. Of course this can be abused, but to imply it was created to give women an extra tight grasp on a man's balls doesn't really follow.

In a legal setting, just like an extralegal setting, child support is patronage, plain and simple. You can color it any way you like. Women do not have a grasp on men's balls. However, women often do have an illegitimate grasp on men's finances, by proxy of the state. The difference, in my opinion, is within the extralegal setting. Child support statistics I have previously cited have been from census data and other sources which track child support orders. But child support arrangements can be settled outside of court. Sometimes, this means that a child is extremely well off, and sometimes it means that a bastard child receives nothing from his or her absent parent (usually the father). A support arrangement in which the child is well off might generally fall into two categories: voluntary patronage and extortion. How does this impact society? Do patrons seek out other patrons, and do the extorted seek to extort other people?

The legal application of child support orders is arranged so as to isolate and "protect" parties from one another, and in that sense it is divisive. In short, it is unnatural because men do not have a choice in the matter, as they do in many other consequences of sex. I do not place human beings in the same category as sexually transmitted diseases, even if there is a lack of knowledge in some cases by which disease and/or sperm is implanted. In an economy, an unknown exchange is not justification for extortion, or exploitation. We are human beings, not viruses or cancers, and we should act as such. But I digress.
 

RabidAlpaca

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In a legal setting, just like an extralegal setting, child support is patronage, plain and simple. You can color it any way you like. Women do not have a grasp on men's balls. However, women often do have an illegitimate grasp on men's finances, by proxy of the state. The difference, in my opinion, is within the extralegal setting. Child support statistics I have previously cited have been from census data and other sources which track child support orders. But child support arrangements can be settled outside of court. Sometimes, this means that a child is extremely well off, and sometimes it means that a bastard child receives nothing from his or her absent parent (usually the father). A support arrangement in which the child is well off might generally fall into two categories: voluntary patronage and extortion. How does this impact society? Do patrons seek out other patrons, and do the extorted seek to extort other people?

The legal application of child support orders is arranged so as to isolate and "protect" parties from one another, and in that sense it is divisive. In short, it is unnatural because men do not have a choice in the matter, as they do in many other consequences of sex. I do not place human beings in the same category as sexually transmitted diseases, even if there is a lack of knowledge in some cases by which disease and/or sperm is implanted. In an economy, an unknown exchange is not justification for extortion, or exploitation. We are human beings, not viruses or cancers, and we should act as such. But I digress.

So what exactly is it that you're proposing? We eliminate all child support and let fatherless children nationwide just starve and deal with the abject poverty? What happened to the concept of personal responsibility? If you bring a child into the world it is your responsibility to feed and take care of it. Trying to sidestep these responsibilities by comparing child support to extortion is hyperbole.

Don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child? Don't have a child. There are more than enough contraceptive measures that both men and women can take their reproductive decisions into their own hands. Personal responsibility: not for everyone apparently.
 

Henrin

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So what exactly is it that you're proposing? We eliminate all child support and let fatherless children nationwide just starve and deal with the abject poverty? What happened to the concept of personal responsibility? If you bring a child into the world it is your responsibility to feed and take care of it. Trying to sidestep these responsibilities by comparing child support to extortion is hyperbole.

Don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child? Don't have a child. There are more than enough contraceptive measures that both men and women can take their reproductive decisions into their own hands. Personal responsibility: not for everyone apparently.

Fun fact: The responsibility you're talking about doesn't naturally exist. It's actually created from societies exceptions and law, which can of course both be changed.

Btw, this isn't actually my argument, really. It's more of a play on a liberal/feminist argument when speaking towards gender roles/responsibility. :D
 

RabidAlpaca

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Fun fact: The responsibility you're talking about doesn't naturally exist. It's actually created from societies exceptions and law, which can of course both be changed.

Of course it can, but you're the only one here who thinks all society and government is a bad thing. Don't want to participate in society? Don't. Go live in the woods by yourself and keep your semen out of women if you're not willing to accept the responsibilities that come with those choices.
 

Henrin

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Of course it can, but you're the only one here who thinks all society and government is a bad thing. Don't want to participate in society? Don't. Go live in the woods by yourself and keep your semen out of women if you're not willing to accept the responsibilities that come with those choices.

:lol: I never said all society is bad. When I spoke against it I was speaking towards forced unions of people that came about from conquest. If you look around the world you will still certain parts where the consequences of this behavior are still being felt and where a separation of that union would be best for all parties. Iraq is probably the best example of this that comes to mind, but the US isn't that bad of an example either.

Anyways, nothing I said spoke against governments or societies existence, so that is at best a strawman.
 

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So what exactly is it that you're proposing? We eliminate all child support and let fatherless children nationwide just starve and deal with the abject poverty? What happened to the concept of personal responsibility? If you bring a child into the world it is your responsibility to feed and take care of it. Trying to sidestep these responsibilities by comparing child support to extortion is hyperbole.

Don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child? Don't have a child. There are more than enough contraceptive measures that both men and women can take their reproductive decisions into their own hands. Personal responsibility: not for everyone apparently.
What if we didn't oppress and enslave men to be "responsible," aka acquiesce to the whims of politicians who believe women who give birth should be subsidized by men. This isn't "**** you, pay me," this is "**** you, pay her," and it's not noble. This is not hyperbole, simply by pretending that some responsibility which does not naturally exist, exists. Men who are fathers are sometimes extorted, and no, I don't have any data to support the notion that some fathers are robbed for the purpose of another man feeding his children. It's a complex social matter and potential for abuse in the form of extortion does exist.

My point being: men do not choose to pay child support, the state chooses for men who should support children. I never said we should eliminate all child support. You said that, because the rhetoric upon which your argument is founded is extremist (we must do something, and those men are "responsible").

If you brought a child into this world, are you a woman or a man? It could be that you're a man, but then that would mean that you had a sex change after giving birth. Men do not birth children.

On the surface, this looks like Robin Hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Some advocates of forced child support would have you believe that men who do not pay child support are stealing food out of the mouths of infants. That is not the case, however, ending forced child support is a matter of disallowing theft of biological fathers who did not give birth at any time.

Of course it can, but you're the only one here who thinks all society and government is a bad thing. Don't want to participate in society? Don't. Go live in the woods by yourself and keep your semen out of women if you're not willing to accept the responsibilities that come with those choices.

What choices?
 

ARealConservative

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What happened to the concept of personal responsibility? If you bring a child into the world it is your responsibility to feed and take care of it. Trying to sidestep these responsibilities by comparing child support to extortion is hyperbole.

Don't want the responsibility of taking care of a child? Don't have a child. There are more than enough contraceptive measures that both men and women can take their reproductive decisions into their own hands. Personal responsibility: not for everyone apparently.

your response seems to completely ignore the reality of the world.

the women ultimately has the say on bringing the child into the world. She can choose to not do so, and face no financial repercussions at all.
 

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I just want to say that the video in the OP is pretty awesome.

I do however find it interesting that men condemn slutty behavior, while women get pissed off by men calling women sluts. You would think women would actually condemn sluts and men would praise them since sluts lower the value of sex, give men more cards to play, and give women less options overall, but oddly enough that is not how it is.
 
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OK, I basically wiped what I wrote. The better response is:

1) The Red Pill is thataway ----->

2) Pay your damned child support.
 
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Henrin

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Thankfully, I haven't. Turns out it's MRA nonsense.

How do you figure? If sex is more available then women as a group can't very well face the dating scene the same. This idea that supply and demand wouldn't affect sex and relationships is pretty incredible.
 
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Henrin

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OK, I basically wiped what I wrote. The better response is:

1) The Red Pill is thataway ----->

2) Pay your damned child support.

Or men can simply refuse and force the states hand to change the ****ing law.

Btw, you should check the number of men in jail for it. Looks like many men aren't playing along with your desire to make them slaves to the will of women.
 
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Or men can simply refuse and force the states hand to change the ****ing law.

Btw, you should check the number of men in jail for it. Looks like many men aren't playing along with your desire to make them slaves to the will of women.

As strongly as you advocate personal responsibility and holding people's feet to the fire I'm surprised to see you take this stance. If you don't want to accept the consequences of your actions visit Rosie when you have the urge.
 

Henrin

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As strongly as you advocate personal responsibility and holding people's feet to the fire I'm surprised to see you take this stance. If you don't want to accept the consequences of your actions visit Rosie when you have the urge.

Rosie? Rosie O'Donnell? Do you want me to have ED so bad nothing can save the day? That's cruel man, real cruel.
 

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Doesn't anybody here know of some women paying child support? I do.....
The real crime is in the increased taxes that responsible people pay to support the children who have been abandoned by a parent, or even both parents, like my father.
 

Henrin

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Doesn't anybody here know of some women paying child support? I do.....
The real crime is in the increased taxes that responsible people pay to support the children who have been abandoned by a parent, or even both parents, like my father.

Women can abort to avoid ever having to deal with child support. Besides of which, the system was not established for women, but only extended to women due to fairness/constitutional concerns.
 

ARealConservative

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so you are completely pro-choice?

how in the hell does that pertain?

since you feel like trolling the thread - I feel individual states determine/define self defense laws.
 

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how in the hell does that pertain?

since you feel like trolling the thread - I feel individual states determine/define self defense laws.

WTF? you don't like what I asked of you so I am trolling? :lamo friggin UNbelieveable...cornered yourself didn't ya?

oh yeah ya did....you can't have it both ways buddy!!

Quote Originally Posted by ARealConservative View Post
your response seems to completely ignore the reality of the world.

the women ultimately has the say on bringing the child into the world. She can choose to not do so, and face no financial repercussions at all.

which way do you want to jump....allow the woman to take care of it...or force her to carry and make the sperm donors responsible...that's how it has to play out
 

ARealConservative

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WTF? you don't like what I asked of you so I am trolling? :lamo friggin UNbelieveable...cornered yourself didn't ya?

oh yeah ya did....you can't have it both ways buddy!!

your reading comprehension is truly bad. I feel sorry for those that waste their time. I'm smarter then that though.
 
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