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Cheney is Absolutely Correct

Ya, Cheney's track record on being "absolutely correct" is so flawless, I fail to see how I could've ever doubted him. After all, when did he ever fcuk up?
 
This is so ridiculous I can't tell if its an attempt at humor or serious.

There are just sooooo many things wrong here:

First and foremost, citing the Rush Limppaw program as a source should give you the first clue that this is an attempt at humor since Rush is a radio comedic commentator (at least he attempts to be). Getting "real" news from Rush "drug addict windbag" Limbaugh is like getting your news from the "daily show"....they are comedy programs.

Second....Cheney restating his ties between 911 and Iraq or whatever you call it Saddam Hussein and Al Queda is just Dick trying to salvage talking points that even the pentagon has backed away from.......

This is just too funny for words
 
This thread is right about 1 thing though:

If Dick Cheney were Absolutely correct about anything....that WOULD be breaking news!

P.S.... Do people actually still listen to this hypocrite?
Most people I know that used to listen to Rush quit him a long time ago....even before all his hypocrisy came out.
 
from the article:

To not see the portals means averting the eyes. Too many people who should know better have done so.

how ironic.
 
This is so ridiculous I can't tell if its an attempt at humor or serious.

There are just sooooo many things wrong here:

First and foremost, citing the Rush Limppaw program as a source should give you the first clue that this is an attempt at humor since Rush is a radio comedic commentator (at least he attempts to be). Getting "real" news from Rush "drug addict windbag" Limbaugh is like getting your news from the "daily show"....they are comedy programs.

Second....Cheney restating his ties between 911 and Iraq or whatever you call it Saddam Hussein and Al Queda is just Dick trying to salvage talking points that even the pentagon has backed away from.......

This is just too funny for words

If there was no Saddam ties to AQ then explain why Abdul Rahman Yasin who built the bombs for the 1993 WTC attack was given Asylum and a salary by the Iraqi government.
 
I feel kind of sad watching the desperate attempts by TOT to make a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.
 
If there was no Saddam ties to AQ then explain why Abdul Rahman Yasin who built the bombs for the 1993 WTC attack was given Asylum and a salary by the Iraqi government.

OK...as soon as you "Prove" that Saddam Hussein singned off on this, and that Abdul Rahman Yasin was AQ, and that Saddam knew he was, and that the vague documentation you cite is in fact "proven" evidence, and that these "proven" ties to AQ were purposeful cooperation between Iraq and AQ, and that......you get the point.

You have reached the point where the last card in your tower of reasoning is falling, and are desperate to keep this unstable house of cards standing. The list of reasons for your argument has dwindled to nothing, and you seem like a cornered beast....scratching at the concrete to get away. You are asking others to prove something they simply do not believe is true, its not going to happen.
 
Ya, Cheney's track record on being "absolutely correct" is so flawless, I fail to see how I could've ever doubted him. After all, when did he ever fcuk up?

That is suppose to be an intelligent rebutal of the article cited?
 
I feel kind of sad watching the desperate attempts by TOT to make a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

I we all just smile when it is clear you can't dispute what he posted.
 
How do you dismiss the Duelfer and Kay reports and the Senate hearings which all found Saddam and Al qaeda had had contacts and wanted to further those contacts and that there were terrorist being sheltered in Iraq and that his secret police were working on means to dispearse CWMD and BWMD that terrorist could use to commit terrorist attacks?
 
OK...as soon as you "Prove" that Saddam Hussein singned off on this, and that Abdul Rahman Yasin was AQ, and that Saddam knew he was, and that the vague documentation you cite is in fact "proven" evidence, and that these "proven" ties to AQ were purposeful cooperation between Iraq and AQ, and that......you get the point.

You have reached the point where the last card in your tower of reasoning is falling, and are desperate to keep this unstable house of cards standing. The list of reasons for your argument has dwindled to nothing, and you seem like a cornered beast....scratching at the concrete to get away. You are asking others to prove something they simply do not believe is true, its not going to happen.

The "document" TOT refers to is a report by US Govt officials from Sep 03, a time when the Bush admin realized they weren't going to find WMDs so were desparately trying to build a case for attacking Iraq on other grounds. What is reported is that "some" unnamed analysts thought that some undisclosed documents might indicate Hussein paid Yasin a salary at some undisclosed period for some undisclosed time.

Like most of the BS the Admin was spouting about Iraq, this sounds pretty bogus too.
 
Originally Posted by Kandahar
Ya, Cheney's track record on being "absolutely correct" is so flawless, I fail to see how I could've ever doubted him. After all, when did he ever fcuk up?
That is suppose to be an intelligent rebutal of the article cited?

Questioning the veracity of an obviously biased source who has a history of repeated errors, omissions, and misrepresentations is the only intellegent response. Blindly accepting the assertion of such a source would demonstrate lack of intellegence.
 
How do you dismiss the Duelfer and Kay reports and the Senate hearings which all found Saddam and Al qaeda had had contacts and wanted to further those contacts and that there were terrorist being sheltered in Iraq and that his secret police were working on means to dispearse CWMD and BWMD that terrorist could use to commit terrorist attacks?

Having contact, and cooperating are very differnt concepts. The United States has contacts with virtually every terrorist organization on Earth, yet we do not cooperate except on a very hidden level, and generally covert operations are not discussed openly. Attempting to justify an invasion based on such extremely loose ties seems a rather feeble gesture from someone who has little left to work with.
We have watched carefully as each attempted explanation for this war has been discounted and proven to be invalid, only to be replaced with a new reasoning which is then destroyed by scrutiny. I find it unlikely this one will be any different.
 
tecoyah said:
Attempting to justify an invasion based on such extremely loose ties seems a rather feeble gesture from someone who has little left to work with.
hold on dude. here come the reinforcements ...

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This entire experience has been undoubtedly the most frustrating event of my career.

This has been the whole problem from the start. War is not an experiment waged to prove academic or commercial theories. Yet that is exactly what Iraq was intended to be before "soldiers" even arrived in Kuwait. The NeoCons wanted their war (I believe they happened to have accidentally stumbled into the correct one) and the Rumsfeld coven wanted to prove the Clinton/RMA/Rumsfeld vision of warfare as sound. They were all wrong. War is a terrible endeavor for a great purpose-and if the purpose is not great, we should not go to war. In Iraq, given the need for change in the Middle East and the presence of a brutal dictator to boot, the purpose was powerful, but the ends the Bush administration hoped to achieve required more extensive means than decision makers were willing to deploy. The tragedy is that we had the means. We could have sent more forces initially, done more detailed planning, and prepared ourselves for the worst-case scenario-as the military always does when political hacks don't interfere. But Rumsfeld's paladins prevented our military from executing its standard war-gaming and planning procedures while playing havoc with complex deployment processes, afraid that revelations of a potentially higher cost for removing Saddam Hussein might deprive them of their longed-for war. There was need to consult the military on the requirements of an occupation. Even the word "occupation" was avoided as long as possible. And even after we removed the dictator, the Iraqi work force (largely bored youth without a purpose that later picked up guns and joined the insurgency or militias) were shunned and set aside for over inflated American contractors that could not do the job as well as Iraqis who would have cost us far less.

In the wake of 9/11 with Al-Queda's main means of support base destroyed, we turned towards the very region that has and will continue to exponentially breed self-appointed executioners of God in large numbers backed up by literally tens to hundreds of millions of Radical cheerleaders. Convinced that the world was without vision and that moral fiber had become a rare commodity even in our own nation, the Bush administration chose to take the route of deception. They made the amature's mistake in using Saddam Hussein's ostensible possession of weapons of mass destruction as its sole rationale for eliminating his regime. And instead of focusing on the future glory of what the Middle East can be and contributing it to the long rich history of how great Muslims were at one time, they chose to obtusely prove a marriage between Osama Bin Ladden and Saddam Hussein. In doing so, they allowed our European "allies" and anti-Americans everywhere to look upon Iraq as only a locale issue rather than a region's cure.

The great test case for the Middle East of our time is Iraq. With its divided population and a tradition of oppression, Iraq is the ultimate laboratory of change in the Middle East. To this very day, the historical Middle Eastern Islamic tradition dictates that Sunni and Shia exist only on unequal ground immersed in hate, bigotry, and persecution. Such behavior has justified oppression and brutality. The result of this is deadly not only upon outsiders that dare to set foot in the sand, but their own cultures. The Middle East, and indeed the world, needs a government that honors all sects and maintains the basic human rights in an environment of equality where all have a voice for change instead of resorting to violence for economic, social, and religious change. This experiment (though horribly managed by inexperience and stubborness) will shape the region's future for decades to come. This, of course, involves the religion as well because religion, culture, and government demand to be largely intertwined. The phantasmagorical rule book, the Qu'ran, has an unedited Kerouac quality about it, as if Muhammed sufferred from mood swings. Thus justification may be found in its pages for almost any stance (although there is little justification for the slaughter of the innocents such as we see in Iraq - only a few eccentric passages). And of course, the same is true of the Bible. Christians did not jettison the Old Testament, with its traditions for genocide and its injunctions to godly intolerance. But Christians (as a movement) have been seeking redemption for some time (with few locale exceptions in the world over the last century). There is no feeling of need to "defend" god by shedding blood. Can Islam become modern and tolerant? Or does its fate lie in Muhammed's more violent examples and a text that shunts women aside except as domestic slaves or playmates in Paradise, and in its early culture of the sword? Iraq will tell us a lot about Arab ambition, intent, and hope.

Of course, such things cannot be stated on international television. Especially if we want to continue receiving affordable oil barrels from the Lords of Terror in Riyadh, continue our friendship with Egypt for Israel's sake, and maintain a sense of positive diplomacy with the Arab leadership that oppresses the masses. But something this huge and an effort so grand demands that we face the music and take the lumps as they come. We have to understand that we can not deal with this very large problem without it affecting our wallets at the pumps and we have to accept that things will get uglier before they get pretty...

Instead we choose to fight a war on the diplomatic cheap and force ourselves into delusional submission as we continue to coddle the masters, but kill their creations. "When those who never served themselves propose theories for fighting our nation's wars, we have virgins writing sex manuals."
 
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This entire experience has been undoubtedly the most frustrating event of my career.

This has been the whole problem from the start. War is not an experiment waged to prove academic or commercial theories. Yet that is exactly what Iraq was intended to be before "soldiers" even arrived in Kuwait. The NeoCons wanted their war (I believe they happened to have accidentally stumbled into the correct one) and the Rumsfeld coven wanted to prove the Clinton/RMA/Rumsfeld vision of warfare as sound. They were all wrong. War is a terrible endeavor for a great purpose-and if the purpose is not great, we should not go to war. In Iraq, given the need for change in the Middle East and the presence of a brutal dictator to boot, the purpose was powerful, but the ends the Bush administration hoped to achieve required more extensive means than decision makers were willing to deploy. The tragedy is that we had the means. We could have sent more forces initially, done more detailed planning, and prepared ourselves for the worst-case scenario-as the military always does when political hacks don't interfere. But Rumsfeld's paladins prevented our military from executing its standard war-gaming and planning procedures while playing havoc with complex deployment processes, afraid that revelations of a potentially higher cost for removing Saddam Hussein might deprive them of their longed-for war. There was need to consult the military on therequirements of an occupation. Even the word "occupation" was avoided as long as possible. And even after we removed the dictator, the Iraqi work force (largely bored youth without a purpose that later picked up guns and joined the insurgency or militias) were shunned and set aside for over inflated American contractors that could not do the job.

In the wake of 9/11 with Al-Queda's main means of support base destroyed, we turned towards the very region that has and will continue to exponentially breed self-appointed executioners of God in large numbers backed up by literally tens to hundreds of millions of Radical cheerleaders. Convinced that the world was without vision and that moral fiber had become a rare commodity even in our own nation, the Bush administration chose to take the route of deception. They made the amature's mistake in using Saddam Hussein's ostensible possession of weapons of mass destruction as its sole rationale for eliminating his regime. And instead of focusing on the future glory of what the Middle East can be and contributing it to the long rich history of how great Muslims were at one time, they chose to obtusely prove a marriage between Osama Bin Ladden and Saddam Hussein. In doing so, they allowed our European "allies" and anti-Americans everywhere to look upon Iraq as only a locale issue rather than a region's cure.

The great test case for the Middle East of our time is Iraq. With its divided population and a tradition of oppression, Iraq is the ultimate laboratory of change in the Middle East. This experiment will shape the region's future for decades to come. This, of course, involves the religion as well because religion, culture, and government demand to be largely intertwined. The phantasmagorical rule book, the Qu'ran, has an unedited Kerouac quality about it, as if Muhammed sufferred from mood swings. Thus justification may be found in its pages for almost any stance (although there is little justification for the slaughter of the innocents such as we see in Iraq - only a few eccentric passages). And of course, the same is true of the Bible. Christians did not jettison the Old Testament, with its traditions for genocide and its injunctions to godly intolerance. But Christians (as a movement) have been seeking redemption for some time (with few locale exceptions in the world over the last century). There is no feeling of need to "defend" god by shedding blood. Can Islam become modern and tolerant? Or does its fate lie in Muhammed's more violent examples and a text that shunts women aside except as domestic slaves or playmates in Paradise, and in its early culture of the sword? Iraq will tell us a lot about Arab ambition, intent, and hope.

Of course, such things cannot be stated on international television. Especially if we want to continue receiving affordable oil barrels from the Lords of Terror in Riyadh, continue our friendship with Egypt for Israel's sake, and maintain a sense of positive diplomacy with the Arab leadership that oppresses the masses. But something this huge and an effort so grand demands that we face the music and take the lumps as they come. We have to understand that we can not deal with this very large problem without it affecting our wallets at the pumps and we have to accept that things will get uglier before they get pretty...

Instead we choose to fight a war on the diplomatic cheap and force ourselves into delusional submission as we continue to coddle the masters, but kill their creations. When those who never served themselves propose theories for fighting our nation's wars, we have virgins writing sex manuals.

On the one hand, you decry the neocons for using war as an experiment to prove academic or commercial theories.

War is not an experiment waged to prove academic or commercial theories. Yet that is exactly what Iraq was intended to be before "soldiers" even arrived in Kuwait. The NeoCons wanted their war (I believe they happened to have accidentally stumbled into the correct one) and the Rumsfeld coven wanted to prove the Clinton/RMA/Rumsfeld vision of warfare as sound. They were all wrong.

I agree wholehartedly for many different reasons. Two principle reasons are the sentiment and moral of our nation in supporting such and endeavor; and the sentiment and reaction of the people whose country you are making war upon.

But then you say:

The great test case for the Middle East of our time is Iraq. With its divided population and a tradition of oppression, Iraq is the ultimate laboratory of change in the Middle East.

After just saying "war is not an experiment waged to prove academic or commercial theory" you are promoting the attack on Iraq as the "ultimate laboratory" of change in the Middle East. You seem to be arguing in favor of the attack upon Iraq because it is a good place to experiment with "academic or commercial theory," right after asserting war is not an experiment.

One of the biggest experiments in Iraq was the "Bush doctrine" (you seldom hear that phrase anymore) of pre-emptive war. That is, the US would be the aggressor nation attacking other nations that it perceived (or misrepresented to be) a threat.

You state that for Iraq, "given the need for change in the Middle East and the presence of a brutal dictator to boot, the purpose was powerful." Maybe so; but one nation attacking another nation because it does not approve of its government or culture is not viewed as a legitimate use of force by most. And regardless of whether we disagree that one nation may legitimately do so or not, we both agree that in the case of Iraq:

the Bush administration chose to take the route of deception. They made the amature's mistake in using Saddam Hussein's ostensible possession of weapons of mass destruction as its sole rationale for eliminating his regime. And instead of focusing on the future glory of what the Middle East can be and contributing it to the long rich history of how great Muslims were at one time, they chose to obtusely prove a marriage between Osama Bin Ladden and Saddam Hussein. In doing so, they allowed our European "allies" and anti-Americans everywhere to look upon Iraq as only a locale issue rather than a region's cure.

The fundamental error with your analysis is that there is no mandate for the US to "cure" the region. Bush could have talked about the glory of the ME all he wanted, and that would not have legitimized attacking Iraq or garned an international consensus for doing so. And without that, without an international consensus that military action was justified or a legitimate act of defense, the US intervention in Iraq was bound to fail because it would automatically be viewed as an unjustified attack and occupation by infidels against Muslems in their holy lands.

Such an experiment is bound to fail. Particularly when doing so our action will depose a significant minority from power. Thinking that if we just had more troops, or a different Sec. Defense, or done this or that a little differently, everything would have worked out is self-deception. The fundamental problem with the attack on Iraq is that the US had no legitimate justification for doing so. Without that, the action was a failure from the day the first troops entered Iraq.

Until we recognize that fundamental point, our efforts in the ME will continue to be a disaster.

Unfortunately, because we have arrogant leadership that mislead us into war and has refused to accept responsibility for its "mistakes," there is no good option for the US in Iraq. Rather than having withdrawn the troops after learning there were no WMDs, the Bush admin has arrogantly maintained the occupation to cover its own mistake. Now when we pull out, it will look like we are withdrawing because we "gave up" on fighting the insurgents, instead of leaving on our own terms because we acknowledged our attack was a mistake.

Nonetheless, it is folly to continue to compound a mistake of attacking Iraq by continuing an indefinite occupation. The US attack is perceived with jusitification as being illegitimate, and therefore so is its occupation. Those opposing the US, which is a greater and greater part of the ME (even our closest ally Saudi Arabia now calls it illegitimate) rightly contend that the US is an agressor, an illegitimate occupier of their lands, that they have the right to resist it. That is what is "fueling the fire" (to use your phrase) of growing radicalism in Iraq and the greater middle east today.

The best thing we can do at this point is be honest, acknowledge our mistakes, affirm we accomplished what we set out to do, that we have done our best to help the Iraqis deal with the mess we made, and that we are going to do what we said we would do at the very beginning an leave in 6 months, and that we will make reparations for the damage we caused by our mistake.

That would be the honorable thing to do and the right thing to do. Sure, some would say we are cut-n-running. But for the first time in a long time, the US would be doing the right thing, and ultimately doing the right thing is the only way to win this war of ideals.
 
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OK...as soon as you "Prove" that Saddam Hussein singned off on this,

It doesn't matter if he had a hand in the '93 bombing or not, he knowingly harbored a member of AQ.

and that Abdul Rahman Yasin was AQ,

Sure thing, in the first WTC bombing Yasin worked with Ramzi Yousef, Yousef is the nephew of KSM (yes that KSM) who had also funded the '93 attacks, later Yousef was captured in a Islamabad AQ safehouse and extradited to the U.S..

and that Saddam knew he was,

He knew he was AQ because he offered his extradition in return for lifting sanctions.

and that the vague documentation you cite is in fact "proven" evidence,

So you want more than captured Iraqi documents that prove Yasin was given a house and a salary by the Iraqi government?

and that these "proven" ties to AQ were purposeful cooperation between Iraq and AQ, and that......you get the point.

Bottom line Saddam was harboring a known member of AQ who engaged in an AQ attack against the U.S. on our own soil.
 
The "document" TOT refers to is a report by US Govt officials from Sep 03, a time when the Bush admin realized they weren't going to find WMDs so were desparately trying to build a case for attacking Iraq on other grounds. What is reported is that "some" unnamed analysts thought that some undisclosed documents might indicate Hussein paid Yasin a salary at some undisclosed period for some undisclosed time.

Like most of the BS the Admin was spouting about Iraq, this sounds pretty bogus too.

No actually the report I'm referring to are the one captured in Tikrit by U.S. forces.
 
It doesn't matter if he had a hand in the '93 bombing or not, he knowingly harbored a member of AQ.

How could Hussein knowingly "harbor" a member of AQ by locking him in prison if it wasn't known he was a member of AQ?

Sure thing, in the first WTC bombing Yasin worked with Ramzi Yousef, Yousef is the nephew of KSM (yes that KSM) who had also funded the '93 attacks, later Yousef was captured in a Islamabad AQ safehouse and extradited to the U.S..

Which doesn't show that Yasin was AQ now does it show that Hussein had reason to know he was.

He knew he was AQ because he offered his extradition in return for lifting sanctions.

All that shows is that he knew the US wanted him and maybe that the US claimed he was AQ.

When did the US Govt state he was AQ?

So you want more than captured Iraqi documents that prove Yasin was given a house and a salary by the Iraqi government?

Sure, where are the documents and their translations that prove this?

Bottom line Saddam was harboring a known member of AQ who engaged in an AQ attack against the U.S. on our own soil.

Bottom line this is appears to be more innuendo, exagerration, and misrepresentation by the Bush Aministration and its neocon supporters to make an after the fact case for attacking Iraq.
 
No actually the report I'm referring to are the one captured in Tikrit by U.S. forces.

Please provide a link to the document and its translation so we can see how this proves Hussein was paying a known AQ terrorist.
 
How could Hussein knowingly "harbor" a member of AQ by locking him in prison if it wasn't known he was a member of AQ?

lmfao the documents prove that Saddam was lying about locking him in prison. Yasin was not in prison he was in an government payed for house collecting a government salary.

Which doesn't show that Yasin was AQ now does it show that Hussein had reason to know he was.

Yasin being the bombmaker in an AQ plot to blow up the WTC doesn't prove that he was a member of AQ? Umm, I really don't know what to say to that. Furthermore; Saddam knew he was a member of AQ because we told him he was a member of AQ and that we wanted him returned to the U.S. for trial, Saddam offered to extradite him on the condition that U.N. sanctions be lifted.

All that shows is that he knew the US wanted him and maybe that the US claimed he was AQ.

Uh huh, Yasin admitted to being involved in the WTC bombing plot in an interview conducted in Baghdad.

When did the US Govt state he was AQ?

When they put him on the F.B.I.s most wanted list right next to OBL.

Most Wanted Terrorist - Abdul Rahman Yasin
Sure, where are the documents and their translations that prove this?

I'm guessing in the DOCEX release.

Bottom line this is appears to be more innuendo, exagerration, and misrepresentation by the Bush Aministration and its neocon supporters to make an after the fact case for attacking Iraq.

Yep the undisputed fact that Saddam was harboring a member of AQ who attacked the U.S. on its own soil is neo-con propaganda. :roll:
 
Please provide a link to the document and its translation so we can see how this proves Hussein was paying a known AQ terrorist.

Best I can do considering I don't know the name of the report or if it has been released for public consumption:

Military, intelligence and law enforcement officials reported finding a large cache of Arabic-language documents in Tikrit, Saddam's political stronghold. A U.S. intelligence official who spoke on condition of anonymity said translators and analysts are busy "separating the gems from the junk." The official said some of the analysts have concluded that the documents show that Saddam's government provided monthly payments and a home for Yasin.

USATODAY.com - U.S.: Iraq sheltered suspect in '93 WTC attack
 
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