Che Guevara.. Hero or Menace?

[Hatuey]

No. I'm trying to show that Cuba can trade with the rest of the world.

Do you even know what the Cuban Democratic Act("El Bloqueo") is about? Countries who do business with the U.S. cannot receive foreign aid from the U.S. - Ships which do business in Cuba are barred from U.S. ports for 180 days. The sanctions on these countries are applicable to foreign companies as well. No country/business that does business with the U.S. is going to do business with Cuba unless they are 'equal' trading partners with the U.S. A Shell oil ship cannot deliver oil to Cuba because of the sanctions is very likely to receive.

Another example, Canada does trade in Cuba. This is only because the U.S. economy and the Canadian economy extend to timber, oil, car parts etc. Guatemala, who's biggest export up to the 1970s was fruits, is not going to really do business with Cuba because of the sanctions the U.S. would levy against their foreign aid. If your entire economy is highly specialized like those of so many countries around the world, you are almost guaranteed to depend on the U.S. for aid - meaning you won't do business with Cuba.

 

[Commoncents]

Thats a pretty simplistic look at it. It does allow for humanitarian aid and food to be donated,medical supplies and equipment to be allowed provided it is not to Cuban governmental agencies for distribution.Of course the Castros dont allow for that. Not receiving aid from the US is a risk not a condition,depending on the specific scenarios and the US itself has offered aid to Cuba if they only hold a democratic election, held under the watchful eye of the international community,allow opposition parties to be given a chance to organize and prepare for elections prior to the voting and Cuba must make the effort to move towards a free market economy. All of these things, in addition to the benefits of moving towards an open democracy and free market, will lead to a vast improvement in the lives of the Cubans.

One must ask why would a leader continually hold his people hostage for so long. Now their life support comes in the form Hugo Chavezs Venzuela. I dont see much of a change in status quo coming.Cubas folks are destined to future of slave labor for crap money and govt oversight in every facet of their lives.Sounds great.

 

[SKYPE]

The controversy surrounding Ernesto "Che" Guevara is a compelling one.

Revered by leftists the world around, and hated by righties, Che is perhaps the most polarizing historical figure of the modern era.

That being said, was Che a hero? Or was he a murderer who is idolized by pop culture and liberal drones?

well if the cia was after him, then chances are he was a hero

 

[digsbe]

Che Guevara was a murderous thug and a menace to the world. He was sick in the head and should not be emulated or honored in any way.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

well if the cia was after him, then chances are he was a hero

That's really stupid.

Che Guevara was a murderous thug and a menace to the world. He was sick in the head and should not be emulated or honored in any way.

Nah, Che was a pretty cool dude.

 

[Erod]

Nah, Che was a pretty cool dude.

He was the equivalent of Charles Manson, and nothing more.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

No he wasn't.

 

[phattonez]

No he wasn't.

So he wasn't a cold-blooded murderer? You know, for a man of the people, you really are quite the defender of violence.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Thank you.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Che is a hero.......
























To ignorant rich white kids. :thumbs:

 

[Helte/2Skelter]

The controversy surrounding Ernesto "Che" Guevara is a compelling one.

Revered by leftists the world around, and hated by righties, Che is perhaps the most polarizing historical figure of the modern era.

That being said, was Che a hero? Or was he a murderer who is idolized by pop culture and liberal drones?

I wouldn't say he is universally revered by leftists ('left' is a big field from social democrats to anarchism). I am not a fan of what is at least the established caricature of him. In the US, he is just a face that looks good on a t-shirt that is marketed to hipsters.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Hipsters don't wear Che tshirts.

 

[joe246]

neither he was an idiot

 

[spud_meister]

neither he was an idiot

i think thats actually the one thing he wasn't

 

[joe246]

i think thats actually the one thing he wasn't

getting shot was smart though and setting up brutal dictatorships was to

 

[German guy]

At any rate, it's pretty misguided to use Che as an inspiring symbol or object of admiration. I mean ok, when you are left-leaning, fine, but you don't do your cause a favor when you wear a Che T-shirt. The reasons have been mentioned already: First, it's a shot into your own foot, because Che's image has become more a symbol of capitalist marketing rather than revolutionary fervor. Thus, it's a perfect symbol for the embarressing paradox of pampered children of capitalism living a capitalist life naively trying to play revolutionary.

And second, Che was a reckless murderer who stood against many things modern leftists in the West often hold dear. Individualism wasn't Che's cup of tea, neither were rights for homosexuals (IIRC, he and especially his buddy Fidel had thousands of homosexuals imprisoned and murdered for their sexual orientation). You could say the systematic violence exerted by Che's enemies, like the US, was worse and more murderous, and maybe you could make a good case in favor of that claim. But two wrongs don't make a right, and embracing Che would be embracing the replacement of one kind of cruel tyranny by another. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has brought a lot of suffering over this planet already, idealistic leftists should be above that kind of logic if they truly want to make a difference.

Just my two cents.

 

[spud_meister]

getting shot was smart though and setting up brutal dictatorships was to

well you can't become a doctor if you're unintelligent, and the fact that he helped overthrow a dictatorship (to install a worse one is beside the point :mrgreen and managed to hide from the americans for years, as well as be the catalyst for several petty revolutions, you can't do all that and be a dip****

 

[Hoplite]

At any rate, it's pretty misguided to use Che as an inspiring symbol or object of admiration. I mean ok, when you are left-leaning, fine, but you don't do your cause a favor when you wear a Che T-shirt. The reasons have been mentioned already: First, it's a shot into your own foot, because Che's image has become more a symbol of capitalist marketing rather than revolutionary fervor. Thus, it's a perfect symbol for the embarressing paradox of pampered children of capitalism living a capitalist life naively trying to play revolutionary.

I remember watching an interview with someone who had fought with Guevara and he was asked about this. He answered basically "I think Che would have been angry that his likeness was being used by the forces that he hated, but ultimately I think he would have been happy because it meant that what he fought for and his ideas were not forgotten."

And second, Che was a reckless murderer

War is murder, get used to it.

who stood against many things modern leftists in the West often hold dear. Individualism wasn't Che's cup of tea, neither were rights for homosexuals (IIRC, he and especially his buddy Fidel had thousands of homosexuals imprisoned and murdered for their sexual orientation). You could say the systematic violence exerted by Che's enemies, like the US, was worse and more murderous, and maybe you could make a good case in favor of that claim. But two wrongs don't make a right, and embracing Che would be embracing the replacement of one kind of cruel tyranny by another. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has brought a lot of suffering over this planet already, idealistic leftists should be above that kind of logic if they truly want to make a difference.

Just my two cents.

I think it's important to recognize and separate what Guevara himself did and what Fidel and other members of the revolution did. Guevara himself led several columns, not the entire army. Guevara was also not in control of the army and acted as a general under Fidel. "Just following orders" isn't an excuse, but it's equally wrong to pin the violations of human rights that were committed during the revolution ENTIRELY on Che's shoulders. The right seems to have bought into the "St Che" myth as well, they seem to believe he was capable of inflicting terrible suffering onto millions of people with the wave of his hand.

We also need to keep in mind the times. Gays were not liked ANYWHERE in the world at the time by almost anyone and the modern concept of individuality is very much a modern creation in the sense that it wasn't really around to the degree it is now in Che's day. There's very good indications that its a concept that would meet with strong approval from Guevara who encouraged his men to read anything they could get their hands on and ordered the execution of revolutionary army members who attacked non-combatants or stole; that doesnt sound like a brutal dictator.

These are things BOTH sides need to keep in mind.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

He was initially a hero, like many evil people were once. Then, he got intoxicated with power and succumbed to corrupt communism. He's evil, but has some admirable traits. He was strong against the many revolutions that came against him and he never got destroyed by the US who kept trying to destroy a menace in its own backyard. He has remarkable stamina and determination, but that doesn't turn him into a hero.

 

[Agent Ferris]

War is murder, get used to it.

No war is killing, lining up innocent men, women, and children on the firing squad is murder running death camps is murder. But I'm sure you, also, supported Che governing death camps for homosexuals whose entry way had a sign over it reading "work will make men out of you" reminiscent of the signs over Aushwitz reading "work will set you free."

 

[Agent Ferris]

I think it's important to recognize and separate what Guevara himself did and what Fidel and other members of the revolution did. Guevara himself led several columns, not the entire army. Guevara was also not in control of the army and acted as a general under Fidel. "Just following orders" isn't an excuse, but it's equally wrong to pin the violations of human rights that were committed during the revolution ENTIRELY on Che's shoulders. The right seems to have bought into the "St Che" myth as well, they seem to believe he was capable of inflicting terrible suffering onto millions of people with the wave of his hand.

Che ran the ****ing camps, specifically La Cabana prison where he was in charge of the Comisión Depuradora, he wasn't just following orders he was giving the ****ing orders to murder innocent men, women, and children.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Do you even know what the Cuban Democratic Act("El Bloqueo") is about? Countries who do business with the U.S. cannot receive foreign aid from the U.S. - Ships which do business in Cuba are barred from U.S. ports for 180 days. The sanctions on these countries are applicable to foreign companies as well. No country/business that does business with the U.S. is going to do business with Cuba unless they are 'equal' trading partners with the U.S. A Shell oil ship cannot deliver oil to Cuba because of the sanctions is very likely to receive.

Really, you're serious aren't you? The entire EU trades with Cuba, Canada trades with Cuba, Mexico trades with Cuba, to my knowledge there is not one country on the planet worth doing trade with that does not trade with Cuba except for the U.S..

Guatemala, who's biggest export up to the 1970s was fruits

Guatemala does trade with Cuba. :roll:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/guatemala/bilateral.htm

The U.S. embargo had nothing to do with a break off in Cuban trade with Guatemala it had to do with a diplomatic row which occurred, because the Bay of Pigs fighters were trained in Guatemalan training camps.

 

[Agent Ferris]

Nah, Che was a pretty cool dude.

If you think running death camps is cool you must really love Hitler.

 

[Hoplite]

Che ran the ****ing camps, specifically La Cabana prison where he was in charge of the Comisión Depuradora, he wasn't just following orders he was giving the ****ing orders to murder innocent men, women, and children.

Guevara was commander of La Cabana for a five month period only and his tenure accounted for just over 160 people. When you consider that several thousand executions took place at La Cabana, both before and after Guevara's tenure, it's clear to me that Guevara's tenure was nothing special or unusual.

It's also important to keep in perspective the people who were being executed at La Cabana. Many of the executions were members of the Bureau for the Repression of Communist Activities, a secret police force employed by Batista to hunt down, torture, terrorize, and kill any supporter or perceived supporter of Communist ideology. This included innocent people as well as guerrillas. Anyone believed to be a Communist was fair game for BRAC.

No war is killing, lining up innocent men, women, and children on the firing squad is murder

Do you have proof that Guevara ever did or sanctioned this?

running death camps is murder.

Do you have proof that Guevara ever did or sanctioned this? La Cabana was a prison and was used as an execution ground for Batista regime members and criminals, it was not a death camp.

But I'm sure you, also, supported Che governing death camps for homosexuals whose entry way had a sign over it reading "work will make men out of you" reminiscent of the signs over Aushwitz reading "work will set you free."

Im sure you can provide proof that this occurred.

 

[Resist the gov.]

I think the cult of personality around El Che was somewhat created by the people around him. I've read anything and everything he's written that I could get my hands on and he, almost unilaterally, attempted to disavow a real heroic image of himself. I dont know what he thought personally but I know publicly he didnt encourage how people saw him.

I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. The people liberate themselves.
Statement in Mexico (1958); as quoted in Kaplan AP World History 2005 (2004) edited by the Kaplan staff, p. 240

I think El Che was a great leader and a great example of a resistance fighter and I think should be looked to as THE model for how to run an armed resistance almost anywhere. His book Guerrilla Warfare is an amazing book on the subject.

"Love. A true revolutionary is guided by great feelings of love. Love of humanity, love of justice and truth. It is impossible to concieve of an authentic revolutionary without this one quality."
-Ernesto "Che" Guevara- On the most important quality for a revolutionary to have

Towards the end, I think El Che misjudged how powerful the promise of a revolution can be to certain people. In places like Bolivia and the Congo, the ground wasnt ripe for revolution at that point and that was a critical factor that he missed. He believed very firmly that the promise of revolution would uplift any oppressed people and that they could reproduce Cuba anywhere in the world.

In the end, I think it's important to remember El Che was a FIGHTER, not a saint or priest. Yes in doing what he did, he killed other people. That is what an armed revolutionary does.

Yes i believe Che is probably rolling in his grave from all the hype that has been created around his image.