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Che Guevara.. Hero or Menace?

Hatuey

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Erm, yeah, that was kind of the point of my post. I think you took the wrong meaning from it. I meant exactly what it said.

No. It is just for the people who thanked you. The American perception of Cuba is that it is a hellhole. The Cuban perception is dependent on who you ask, where you ask them and when you ask them.
 

Dav

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The American perception of Cuba is that it is a hellhole. The Cuban perception is dependent on who you ask, where you ask them and when you ask them.

The same is true with the American perception, though. If anything though, Cubans are much more unified in thinking that Cuba now is a hell hole, mostly because it undeniably is.
 

Hatuey

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The same is true with the American perception, though. If anything though, Cubans are much more unified in thinking that Cuba now is a hell hole, mostly because it undeniably is.

Which Cubans? The ones inside or outside?
 

Hatuey

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Both.

10char

Doubt that. There are people who still support the system inside and outside(my father in law who is outside and the relatives of my wife who are inside). The Miami population in Cuba tends to distort this by wishing the U.S. would enter Cuba like it did Iraq(watch Balseros). The reality is that there is no unity in what Cuba is like because most people don't know what changes need to occur. Cubans inside are vehemently strongly to many of the changes proposed by Cubans living outside and Cubans outside think that once things change they'll simply be able to return and claim what they left behind 50-30 or even 10 years ago. To say there is any kind of unity on the view Cubans have of Cuba is false.
 
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Dav

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Doubt that. There are people who still support the system inside and outside(my father in law who is outside and the relatives of my wife who are inside).

Well, yeah. But if they weren't in the fringe, the elections there wouldn't need to be so rigged and non-existent.

The Miami population in Cuba tends to distort this by wishing the U.S. would enter Cuba like it did Iraq(watch Balseros).

That is a total strawman, whatever some documentary might tell you.

The reality is that there is no unity in what Cuba is like because most people don't know what changes need to occur. Cubans inside are vehemently strongly to many of the changes proposed by Cubans living outside and Cubans outside think that once things change they'll simply be able to return and claim what they left behind 50-30 or even 10 years ago. To say there is any kind of unity on the view Cubans have of Cuba is false.

Of course they're not unified on exactly what needs to happen in their country. Nobody in any country ever is. But a regime that bans even saying something bad against the government is generally not going to be so popular. Having an economy stuck in the 50s doesn't help, nor does (until recently) bans on things like computers and DVD players.
 

Hatuey

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Well, yeah. But if they weren't in the fringe, the elections there wouldn't need to be so rigged and non-existent.

Doubt they are in the fringe.

That is a total strawman, whatever some documentary might tell you.

Not really. The documentary doesn't tell people anything. These are the words of Alberto Beguiristain and other prominent Cubans.

Of course they're not unified on exactly what needs to happen in their country. Nobody in any country ever is. But a regime that bans even saying something bad against the government is generally not going to be so popular. Having an economy stuck in the 50s doesn't help, nor does (until recently) bans on things like computers and DVD players.

The problem is that the Castro government is popular in Cuba and among Cubans. Fidel Castro didn't go around and started holding guns to peoples heads to provide free health care, housing and education. They gave it to him for the most part. While it can be said he was - in the beginning of the revolution - ruthless with dissenters and former Batista supports, the guy has managed to avoid a civil war for 50 years in a country where people rising up against the government is more common than peasant uprisings in Imperial China. No. The history of Cuba in the last 60 years when compared to that of the previous 200 shows that at the very least - the people in the island have an unity in regards that Cuba isn't the hellhole you picture it.

I gotta ask - have you been to Cuba?
 
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Dav

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Doubt they are in the fringe.

Then why can't they have free elections? Why are dissenting parties banned?

Not really. The documentary doesn't tell people anything. These are the words of Alberto Beguiristain and other prominent Cubans.

So a few "prominent Cubans" represent the majority of Miami Cubans?

I gotta ask - have you been to Cuba?

No, but my aunt has, and the stories and pictures she has brought back are striking. The embargo didn't apply to her since she went to deliver medicine, and she actually went into the heart of the country - not just the tourist-friendly resort areas. The whole place is one big ghetto. Not a single car there was made after the 50s, which from the looks of things is the last time a building was repaired. A woman's two-year-old daughter died thanks to the inaccessibility of medicine in Cuba's glorious health-care system, and the government sent her a letter saying that for all intents and purposes, her daughter never existed, since that would make the government look bad. People are so afraid of being arrested that they've taken to mockingly making a beard symbol with their hands to refer to Castro rather than say his name. She went to neighborhoods full of houses where the kitchen is in the backyard, and the bedroom is nothing but a mattress in an empty windowless room. But the worst part isn't just that there are bad things there - there are in every country. It's that she has a point of contrast in having lived in these same areas as a kid. What were once nice areas are now just as run down as everything else. But maybe your wives' relatives live in one of the few, isolated upper-class areas, which she has also visited and noticed the stark contrast of with the rest of the country.

I will give the Castros credit, though. As you've said, they've successfully fought off opposition with an iron fist for 50 years without getting overthrown - quite a feat. It will be interesting to see how soon it all falls apart, especially after Raul leaves.
 

Hatuey

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Then why can't they have free elections? Why are dissenting parties banned?

This goes back to the revolution days. Cuba did away with whatever we call 'free elections' back then through legal means and with the widespread of support of the Cuban people. Same goes for dissenting parties. Read about the writing of the Cuban constitution as we know it today.

So a few "prominent Cubans" represent the majority of Miami Cubans?

No. They represent the people who will actually have any kind of active role in dictating Cuban policy if the Castro government were to disintegrate.

No, but my aunt has, and the stories and pictures she has brought back are striking. The embargo didn't apply to her since she went to deliver medicine, and she actually went into the heart of the country - not just the tourist-friendly resort areas. The whole place is one big ghetto. Not a single car there was made after the 50s, which from the looks of things is the last time a building was repaired.

This is really ignorant. Cuba has had for the last 50 years had traffic of cars from the Soviet Union, Europe and Asia. Last time I went I saw Toyotas and Hyundais rolling around. While most Cubans still can't afford them, how many in Latin American can? The automobile is an American commodity presented as a sign of modernity to Latin Americans. Most people in Bolivia can't afford new cars anymore than most people in El Salvador or Mexico can. It is a Latin American condition. Not a Cuban one.

A woman's two-year-old daughter died thanks to the inaccessibility of medicine in Cuba's glorious health-care system, and the government sent her a letter saying that for all intents and purposes, her daughter never existed, since that would make the government look bad.

I have no way of telling whether this is true or not.

People are so afraid of being arrested that they've taken to mockingly making a beard symbol with their hands to refer to Castro rather than say his name.

Lol. This isn't true. Stop reading Generation Y(actually don't, it is a pretty good blog). That may have happened in the 1980s or even early 90s. Not now. Now you get labeled a political deviant and they ignore you. Same goes for homosexuals. The human rights noise that would be made is simply more trouble than arresting people.

She went to neighborhoods full of houses where the kitchen is in the backyard, and the bedroom is nothing but a mattress in an empty windowless room.

That is really common in Cuba and Spanish influenced architecture.

But the worst part isn't just that there are bad things there - there are in every country. It's that she has a point of contrast in having lived in these same areas as a kid. What were once nice areas are now just as run down as everything else. But maybe your wives' relatives live in one of the few, isolated upper-class areas, which she has also visited and noticed the stark contrast of with the rest of the country.

Not really, my wife's family is Cayo Hueso and Centro Habana. Today they are probably the closest thing Habana has to a ghetto and while they are bad by our standards the most you have to worry about is the occasional stick up. I'm not by any means a 'Cuban' looking black guy. I mean we stayed in El Cerro for 3 weeks and not once did we experience anything like what we did when we lived in California. But then again we're used to drivebys and people having their homes shot up. Cuba seemed weak compared to that.

I will give the Castros credit, though. As you've said, they've successfully fought off opposition with an iron fist for 50 years without getting overthrown - quite a feat. It will be interesting to see how soon it all falls apart, especially after Raul leaves.

This is where you're just completely wrong. The Castros if anything have been by dictatorial standards one of the weakest rulers of the last century. While they have support from the military, the rate of high ranking military officers who publicly have stood out against the government is pretty high. Even from the first days of the revolution you had guys like Huber Matos standing up against the government and while he was sent to jail, the Castros simply didn't have the power to execute him.

Last, there is your claim about how quickly it will fall apart, once Raul leaves what do you think will happen? Do you think they haven't made a plan for how to deal with the eventual death of the Castro brothers? Political parties formed by revolutions(like PRI in Mexico) and the PCC(Partido Communista de Cuba) prepare for such events for decades. It is the reason they're able to hold on to power for so long.

The fear of Americans & Cubans in the U.S. coming to Cuba and making laws for Cubans who've had to eat 5 cent bread for the last 50 years is bigger than Fidel Castro passing away. Trust me on this one, things won't fall apart because the Castros are gone.

I think what you need to realize is that the revolution and what you call a dictatorship in Cuba is pretty unique. In terms of how unique it was it is right up there with the Peronist movement. The majority of Cubans on the island today can read and write because of it, I do not know about your parents but my wife's parents have university level educations because of it. The revolution was a slash and burn operation. Do away with a system which had casino companies and fruit growing operations running the country and create a system for the people. Whether it has had failures is pretty much not up for discussion because it does. But it is really a lot more complicated than saying that Castro simply is ruling with an iron fist. The Cuban people have allowed Castro to do all he did. The expropriation of company property, the social programs, the cultural isolation. It is as much the fault of the Cuban people as it is the Castros.
 

Ikari

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As a son of a Cuban refugee I think I might be a bit biased on this.

That...or the one with actual, credible experience and opinion on the matter. I think most people who worship Che are just upper-middle class suburban kids who have no idea who it is they are worshiping.
 

LiberalAvenger

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That...or the one with actual, credible experience and opinion on the matter. I think most people who worship Che are just upper-middle class suburban kids who have no idea who it is they are worshiping.

Or old hippiecoms like me.:mrgreen:
 

Dav

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This goes back to the revolution days. Cuba did away with whatever we call 'free elections' back then through legal means and with the widespread of support of the Cuban people. Same goes for dissenting parties. Read about the writing of the Cuban constitution as we know it today.

Cuba never had been a particularly politically stable country, but they did have some form of elections until Batista.

No. They represent the people who will actually have any kind of active role in dictating Cuban policy if the Castro government were to disintegrate.

Certain prominent Miami Cubans would dictate policy in Cuba... and one such Cuban policy would be for America to invade? That's just nonsensical on many levels.

This is really ignorant. Cuba has had for the last 50 years had traffic of cars from the Soviet Union, Europe and Asia. Last time I went I saw Toyotas and Hyundais rolling around. While most Cubans still can't afford them, how many in Latin American can? The automobile is an American commodity presented as a sign of modernity to Latin Americans. Most people in Bolivia can't afford new cars anymore than most people in El Salvador or Mexico can. It is a Latin American condition. Not a Cuban one.

Other Latin American countries have their own problems. Cuban was doing fairly well economically until Castro came along.

However, this seems to confirm that your wives' relatives live in a unique (even if not rich) part of Cuba, since the fact that there are no new cars there is not only something observed by my aunt, but also present in an entirely book of pictures of modern Cuba we were given.

I have no way of telling whether this is true or not.

It is, regardless of whether it contradicts your preconceived notions. It really shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone who knows anything about the nature of Castro's dictatorship, but clearly you don't.

Lol. This isn't true. Stop reading Generation Y(actually don't, it is a pretty good blog). That may have happened in the 1980s or even early 90s. Not now. Now you get labeled a political deviant and they ignore you. Same goes for homosexuals. The human rights noise that would be made is simply more trouble than arresting people.

I actually didn't even know that Generacion Y had confirmed this, though that just seems to prove it. I was merely passing on my aunt's experiences.

And if you really believe they don't arrest political dissedents anymore, three words: Orlando Zapata Tamayo.

That is really common in Cuba and Spanish influenced architecture.

And it wasn't before, because they weren't that poor.

That's just a fact. Cuba's GDP per capita was, in 1958, on par with Japan, whereas it is now ten times less (and no, Japan's GDP per capita has not grown ten times since then in comparison to the rest of the world). Cuba is importing sugar now. Think about that. They are importing sugar. A huge portion of their economy was based on exporting sugar, because it was so abundant and because the land was so furtile. In fact, one of my great-grandparents worked for Hershey, helping him get sugar. Their baseball team was called the Cuban Sugar Canes. But now nobody's growing anything, because it would just be confiscated.

This is where you're just completely wrong. The Castros if anything have been by dictatorial standards one of the weakest rulers of the last century.

This sentence suggests that you know absolutely positively nothing at all about Fidel Castro.

You don't get to stick around as a dictator for 50 years by being gentle. Even if you were popular at first, eventually people would tire of you. Castro had to have been as brutal and oppressive as he was to get as far as he did.

While they have support from the military, the rate of high ranking military officers who publicly have stood out against the government is pretty high. Even from the first days of the revolution you had guys like Huber Matos standing up against the government and while he was sent to jail, the Castros simply didn't have the power to execute him.

Why would they need to if he was in jail? That they arrested him should show you something it itself.

Last, there is your claim about how quickly it will fall apart, once Raul leaves what do you think will happen? Do you think they haven't made a plan for how to deal with the eventual death of the Castro brothers? Political parties formed by revolutions(like PRI in Mexico) and the PCC(Partido Communista de Cuba) prepare for such events for decades. It is the reason they're able to hold on to power for so long.

Of course they've made plans, but nobody will simply have the political strength to hold the regime together that the Castros did.

The fear of Americans & Cubans in the U.S. coming to Cuba and making laws for Cubans who've had to eat 5 cent bread for the last 50 years is bigger than Fidel Castro passing away.

That's just idiotic. Americans aren't going to make laws for Cubans. Really they (and we) have much more to fear from a mass exodus away from Cuba to the U.S.

Trust me on this one, things won't fall apart because the Castros are gone.

True, it might happen for other reasons. It might even happen under Raul. But it'll happen soon.

I think what you need to realize is that the revolution and what you call a dictatorship in Cuba is pretty unique. In terms of how unique it was it is right up there with the Peronist movement.

Not really; obviously circumstances are going to be unique in each individual case, but it's pretty much the same result that Russia and China and North Korea had, just each of them to different extents.

The majority of Cubans on the island today can read and write because of it, I do not know about your parents but my wife's parents have university level educations because of it.

And thanks to Castro, that means hogwash. A highly educated person might as well be a waiter, because thanks to the extra tips they get, that's pretty much as high-paying a job as they're going to get.

The revolution was a slash and burn operation. Do away with a system which had casino companies and fruit growing operations running the country and create a system for the people.

Oh lordy, I cannot believe the propaganda spewed here. "The people"? That's why the people can't have a say in their government, or even have a negative opinion of their government. That's why the people can't legally leave the country, because it's theirs now. That's why they're leaving in tiny drafts, risking their lives, just to get out of "the people's" country. And how many people are doing the same to get in?

Whether it has had failures is pretty much not up for discussion because it does. But it is really a lot more complicated than saying that Castro simply is ruling with an iron fist. The Cuban people have allowed Castro to do all he did. The expropriation of company property, the social programs, the cultural isolation. It is as much the fault of the Cuban people as it is the Castros.

Well hey, I guess by the same standards the North Koreans "let" their system become the tyranny it is today.


I happen to know dozens of Miami Cubans in my family alone. None of them want to invade Cuba or any of that hogwash, but all of them are anti-Castro. This includes conservatives, moderates, liberals, and mega-liberals, and every one of them despises Fidel Castro, in some cases as much as they despise Ronald Reagan. My great uncle was a member of the Communist Party of Cuba. Castro took over, he fled to Miami, and he became a Republican (though he did vote for Obama).

Given what I've already seen from you, I'm not surprised that a statist piece of sh*t like you supports a tyrannical piece of sh*t like Castro, though it does surprise me that your wives' family is moronic enough to like the man who destroyed their country. Frankly though, if they're perfectly fine with people who oppose them going to jail, they can go suck on turds for all I care. People like them and like you are a disgrace to humanity, as are all the others who "allowed", as you say, an evil tyrant impose his will on his country. F*ck them.
 

LiberalAvenger

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Cuba never had been a particularly politically stable country, but they did have some form of elections until Batista.



Certain prominent Miami Cubans would dictate policy in Cuba... and one such Cuban policy would be for America to invade? That's just nonsensical on many levels.



Other Latin American countries have their own problems. Cuban was doing fairly well economically until Castro came along.

However, this seems to confirm that your wives' relatives live in a unique (even if not rich) part of Cuba, since the fact that there are no new cars there is not only something observed by my aunt, but also present in an entirely book of pictures of modern Cuba we were given.



It is, regardless of whether it contradicts your preconceived notions. It really shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone who knows anything about the nature of Castro's dictatorship, but clearly you don't.



I actually didn't even know that Generacion Y had confirmed this, though that just seems to prove it. I was merely passing on my aunt's experiences.

And if you really believe they don't arrest political dissedents anymore, three words: Orlando Zapata Tamayo.



And it wasn't before, because they weren't that poor.

That's just a fact. Cuba's GDP per capita was, in 1958, on par with Japan, whereas it is now ten times less (and no, Japan's GDP per capita has not grown ten times since then in comparison to the rest of the world). Cuba is importing sugar now. Think about that. They are importing sugar. A huge portion of their economy was based on exporting sugar, because it was so abundant and because the land was so furtile. In fact, one of my great-grandparents worked for Hershey, helping him get sugar. Their baseball team was called the Cuban Sugar Canes. But now nobody's growing anything, because it would just be confiscated.



This sentence suggests that you know absolutely positively nothing at all about Fidel Castro.

You don't get to stick around as a dictator for 50 years by being gentle. Even if you were popular at first, eventually people would tire of you. Castro had to have been as brutal and oppressive as he was to get as far as he did.



Why would they need to if he was in jail? That they arrested him should show you something it itself.



Of course they've made plans, but nobody will simply have the political strength to hold the regime together that the Castros did.



That's just idiotic. Americans aren't going to make laws for Cubans. Really they (and we) have much more to fear from a mass exodus away from Cuba to the U.S.



True, it might happen for other reasons. It might even happen under Raul. But it'll happen soon.



Not really; obviously circumstances are going to be unique in each individual case, but it's pretty much the same result that Russia and China and North Korea had, just each of them to different extents.



And thanks to Castro, that means hogwash. A highly educated person might as well be a waiter, because thanks to the extra tips they get, that's pretty much as high-paying a job as they're going to get.



Oh lordy, I cannot believe the propaganda spewed here. "The people"? That's why the people can't have a say in their government, or even have a negative opinion of their government. That's why the people can't legally leave the country, because it's theirs now. That's why they're leaving in tiny drafts, risking their lives, just to get out of "the people's" country. And how many people are doing the same to get in?



Well hey, I guess by the same standards the North Koreans "let" their system become the tyranny it is today.


I happen to know dozens of Miami Cubans in my family alone. None of them want to invade Cuba or any of that hogwash, but all of them are anti-Castro. This includes conservatives, moderates, liberals, and mega-liberals, and every one of them despises Fidel Castro, in some cases as much as they despise Ronald Reagan. My great uncle was a member of the Communist Party of Cuba. Castro took over, he fled to Miami, and he became a Republican (though he did vote for Obama).

Given what I've already seen from you, I'm not surprised that a statist piece of sh*t like you supports a tyrannical piece of sh*t like Castro, though it does surprise me that your wives' family is moronic enough to like the man who destroyed their country. Frankly though, if they're perfectly fine with people who oppose them going to jail, they can go suck on turds for all I care. People like them and like you are a disgrace to humanity, as are all the others who "allowed", as you say, an evil tyrant impose his will on his country. F*ck them.

Your comments are the most nasty I have read on DP. You deserve an award they are so insulting.:fart
 

Hatuey

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Cuba never had been a particularly politically stable country, but they did have some form of elections until Batista.

Certain prominent Miami Cubans would dictate policy in Cuba... and one such Cuban policy would be for America to invade? That's just nonsensical on many levels.

Other Latin American countries have their own problems. Cuban was doing fairly well economically until Castro came along.

However, this seems to confirm that your wives' relatives live in a unique (even if not rich) part of Cuba, since the fact that there are no new cars there is not only something observed by my aunt, but also present in an entirely book of pictures of modern Cuba we were given.

It is, regardless of whether it contradicts your preconceived notions. It really shouldn't be much of a surprise to anyone who knows anything about the nature of Castro's dictatorship, but clearly you don't.

I actually didn't even know that Generacion Y had confirmed this, though that just seems to prove it. I was merely passing on my aunt's experiences.

And if you really believe they don't arrest political dissedents anymore, three words: Orlando Zapata Tamayo.

And it wasn't before, because they weren't that poor.

That's just a fact. Cuba's GDP per capita was, in 1958, on par with Japan, whereas it is now ten times less (and no, Japan's GDP per capita has not grown ten times since then in comparison to the rest of the world). Cuba is importing sugar now. Think about that. They are importing sugar. A huge portion of their economy was based on exporting sugar, because it was so abundant and because the land was so furtile. In fact, one of my great-grandparents worked for Hershey, helping him get sugar. Their baseball team was called the Cuban Sugar Canes. But now nobody's growing anything, because it would just be confiscated.

This sentence suggests that you know absolutely positively nothing at all about Fidel Castro.

You don't get to stick around as a dictator for 50 years by being gentle. Even if you were popular at first, eventually people would tire of you. Castro had to have been as brutal and oppressive as he was to get as far as he did.

Why would they need to if he was in jail? That they arrested him should show you something it itself.

Of course they've made plans, but nobody will simply have the political strength to hold the regime together that the Castros did.

That's just idiotic. Americans aren't going to make laws for Cubans. Really they (and we) have much more to fear from a mass exodus away from Cuba to the U.S.

True, it might happen for other reasons. It might even happen under Raul. But it'll happen soon.

Not really; obviously circumstances are going to be unique in each individual case, but it's pretty much the same result that Russia and China and North Korea had, just each of them to different extents.

And thanks to Castro, that means hogwash. A highly educated person might as well be a waiter, because thanks to the extra tips they get, that's pretty much as high-paying a job as they're going to get.

Oh lordy, I cannot believe the propaganda spewed here. "The people"? That's why the people can't have a say in their government, or even have a negative opinion of their government. That's why the people can't legally leave the country, because it's theirs now. That's why they're leaving in tiny drafts, risking their lives, just to get out of "the people's" country. And how many people are doing the same to get in?

Well hey, I guess by the same standards the North Koreans "let" their system become the tyranny it is today.

I happen to know dozens of Miami Cubans in my family alone. None of them want to invade Cuba or any of that hogwash, but all of them are anti-Castro. This includes conservatives, moderates, liberals, and mega-liberals, and every one of them despises Fidel Castro, in some cases as much as they despise Ronald Reagan. My great uncle was a member of the Communist Party of Cuba. Castro took over, he fled to Miami, and he became a Republican (though he did vote for Obama).

Given what I've already seen from you, I'm not surprised that a statist piece of sh*t like you supports a tyrannical piece of sh*t like Castro, though it does surprise me that your wives' family is moronic enough to like the man who destroyed their country. Frankly though, if they're perfectly fine with people who oppose them going to jail, they can go suck on turds for all I care. People like them and like you are a disgrace to humanity, as are all the others who "allowed", as you say, an evil tyrant impose his will on his country. F*ck them.

Spoken like one more little American raised Cuban boy who speaks like an authority to a country he's never been to. But since I have no time to debate people who only repeat what they hear from the very people who obviously were profiting from American rule of Cuba before they got told to take a hike, I'll make this just one long post and you can verify every single part of it if you like.

The reality of the Cuban "democratic" system before the revolution and even before Batista is that there was no democratic system. Free elections in Cuba is a myth like in most of Latin America. Generally, whatever party serves to U.S. interests is the one which is most likely to win. Democracy or no democracy. This is confirmed in the PRI - Which inexplicably held power for 70 years - and the Pinochet government in South America. It was no different in Cuba, the only legacy democracy in Cuba left was a long line of puppet governments who catered to U.S. companies. From the United Fruit Company to the AEP, Cuba was a country where large profits could be made at the expense of a mostly uneducated populace.

This ultimately explains why the Cuban Revolution has been so successful in terms of staying in power. There are people in Cuba who still remember times where nobody but the rich could go to university. People who still remember being out of work for 5 months of the year because the only mass employer in Cuba were sugar cane growers. People who lived in towns of 20 or even 30,000 where the majority of the population couldn't read.

Whether you accept the negative repercussions of the Cuban revolution or not, there is no question that it is unique in terms of revolution and coups. Cuba did not experience famine, genocide or even mass disappearances. Revolutions are characteristically followed by such. Specially when the country is completely isolated economically and/or switches political systems. North Korea, Russia, China all experienced this when becoming socialists. Cuba didn't. That is u.n.i.q.u.e. in history.

Not only is it unique because of that but because it was a revolution supported in large numbers by the urban population. The 26th of July Movement was primarily made up of university kids in the cities engaging in guerrilla warfare in the cities while Castro's forces put pressure on the South. When Batista saw that he could no longer control the people he fled. Soon followed by all those people in Cuba who had benefited from his puppet government.

Finally, showing just how unique the Cuban revolution is historically, is the fact that the populace supported the swift changes almost overnight. Fidel didn't need to have the military patrolling the streets of Cuba to start social programs. He didn't need hold thousands of Cuban kids hostage to get work accomplished. Cubans simply supported his revolution. The proof is in the history books, the videos of the time, the writings about Fidel Castro even by American politicians like Nixon who saw him as a force to be reckoned with because of the support he had behind him.

And this support has persisted. Whether the younger generation in Cuba has become disillusioned with how it has turned out for them is another issue. But the Cuban revolution gave most Cubans the chance that no democracy in Latin America would have ever dreamed of. It turned the sons of campesinos into doctors, lawyers etc. It gave heavy farming equipment to guajiros who before had to spend countless hours on their field. It gave women equal footing with men in the work place. This is not debatable.

Now I do not know your family, but from the looks of it they sound like people who left shortly after the revolution. Which would explain why your entire argument is based on what you've heard instead of what you've seen or even read. They sound like people who obviously benefited from an economy which very few Cubans did. GDP is not indicative of the social conditions in a country. Proof of this are found all over the place today. Take Greece, the GDP in Greece is 30,000pc yet the country is facing the greatest financial crisis in its history. Explain that? I bet you can't. Because GDP is nothing more than a red herring in these discussions.

However, the social conditions of a country are indicative of whether or not a revolution is going to happen. And in Cuba the social conditions were perfect for a revolution. People were disenfranchise. Beyond Habana and cities like Santiago, there was very little infrastructure in the country. Cuba's national highway wasn't even built then. Do you understand now why the revolution is so important to Cuba in terms of what it gave them?

Regardless of whatever you've heard, and wish to repeat (I'll keep saying that from now because your posts are indicative that you are nothing more than a parrot - if you'd like un perico) there is no such thing as rich parts of Cuba. Ask your 'parents' where Cayo Hueso and El Cerro are. Not rich by any stretch of the imagination. Cars like these ones,

2cuba004.jpg


odessa-old-and-new-cars.jpg


are now a common sight in Cuba(look behind the old car in Cuba and count the number of new ones). More than that, Cuban people are buying them. And they're not from the 50s, they're not from the 60s. They are brand new. This ridiculous assertion you have that there are parts of Cuba that are richer than others is ridiculous. There are parts which are more developed than others. But then again what country doesn't have this? The U.S. does, Canada does so does Japan etc. No. You're simply wrong even on the cars.

But why stop there? As long as we're talking about being wrong, tell me. What do you know about Orlando Zapata Tamayo? Please tell me because you obviously don't even know why he was put in jail. The guy had a criminal record spanning assault with a deadly weapon(a machete), fraud etc. In other words, he was a common criminal. Nothing more, nothing less.

The worst part about your entire post is that you bring up your great uncle like I'll be impressed or something. The Cuban Communist Party pre-Revolution was like the Argentinian Socialist Party. They were there to give the populace the belief that there was opposition. The public was hyped up with rhetoric it couldn't comprehend and then when voting time came, the same people remained in power. The workers, the trabajadores, los descamisados, all the same thing at the end of the day never got anybody who represented their interests elected. The fact that your great uncle went over to Miami after Fidel took power is proof that Cuba was a farce in terms of democratic tradition. It always has been.

Finally there is your quote about me being a statist. Oh little Cuban boys who talk about countries they've never been to! I do not support the Castro government. What I do support is the idea that at the end of the day, Cubans at the end of the day support a Castro government more than they would a Miami friendly government which is commanded from D.C. - But then again, this is because :

1. I've been to the country and spoken to Cubans actually living in the country.
2. I actually have knowledge of Cuba prior to the revolution.
3. I didn't have to hear it from other people.

But please little Cuban boy who's never been to Cuba. Tell us all, what is the history of democracy in Cuba. I'm sure some here will find the words of somebody who's never even been there more than enough to convince them. Whatever you do though, read a book first. Don't repeat what you hear and most of all, no comas tanta pinga.
 
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Hatuey

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Your comments are the most nasty I have read on DP. You deserve an award they are so insulting.:fart

He's a little kid talking about a country he's never been to after hearing things from people who don't live there. It is like trusting Ray Charles to tell you how to drive around L.A.
 

phattonez

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As a son of a Cuban refugee I think I might be a bit biased on this.

You too? Yeah, we're biased, but toward the truth. :roll:
 

phattonez

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He's a little kid talking about a country he's never been to after hearing things from people who don't live there. It is like trusting Ray Charles to tell you how to drive around L.A.

Hey, I've been to Cuba. It's a hellhole! I'd say that it was easily better back in the 1950s when my dad's family was successful over there.
 

LiberalAvenger

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Hey, I've been to Cuba. It's a hellhole! I'd say that it was easily better back in the 1950s when my dad's family was successful over there.

Of course it's a hell hole. The US has been treating Cuba badly for years, not to mention the Bay of Pigs.

I applaud the Cubans under Castro for their bravery for standing up to the US Bully tactics and dirty tricks.
 

phattonez

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Of course it's a hell hole. The US has been treating Cuba badly for years, not to mention the Bay of Pigs.

So it can't trade with other countries? Trading with Canada, Europe, Asia, etc., and they are still stagnant just because they can't trade with the US? Really? That's the only reason?

I applaud the Cubans under Castro for their bravery for standing up to the US Bully tactics and dirty tricks.

Yeah, it's great to applaud a country that kills political prisoners, silences oppression, and bans the internet. What an amazing land!
 

Hoplite

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So it can't trade with other countries? Trading with Canada, Europe, Asia, etc., and they are still stagnant just because they can't trade with the US? Really? That's the only reason?
The US has pressured (in the past, I dont know about currently) many other countries into not trading with Cuba. Lack of international trade can severely cripple the ability of a country to get what it needs and sell what it has excess of.
 

phattonez

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The US has pressured (in the past, I dont know about currently) many other countries into not trading with Cuba. Lack of international trade can severely cripple the ability of a country to get what it needs and sell what it has excess of.

Look at UN votes about the embargo. Only the US and Israel support it.
 

phattonez

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The UN does not run the world economy. You are doing a Strawman argument.

No. I'm trying to show that Cuba can trade with the rest of the world.

The problem with Cuba is that no one can invest there because of the government. Without capital accumulation you will have no economic growth! People are barely living at subsistence, so how can people save money?
 

Commoncents

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No. I'm trying to show that Cuba can trade with the rest of the world.

The problem with Cuba is that no one can invest there because of the government. Without capital accumulation you will have no economic growth! People are barely living at subsistence, so how can people save money?

Even the Russians pulled the plug on that shiitehole.

Thank God for Hugo Chavez of the folks who 'choose' to stay in Cuba would be really fooked.
 

LiberalAvenger

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No. I'm trying to show that Cuba can trade with the rest of the world.

The problem with Cuba is that no one can invest there because of the government. Without capital accumulation you will have no economic growth! People are barely living at subsistence, so how can people save money?

Well, cuban cigars are the best in the world but the us has kept them from selling them.
 
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