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Che Guevara.. Hero or Menace?

Commoncents

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It's not a very good report. There are numerous areas where gross-oversimplifications have been made and outright speculation included with very little support.

So eyewitness testimonials,biographers,CIA analysts,actual interviews are off limits...like I said,what will suffice?

Wikipedia?
 
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Hoplite

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So eyewitness testimonials,biographers,CIA analysts,actual interviews are off limits...like I said,what will suffice?
I never said these wouldnt suffice, just show me good supported information.
 

digsbe

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I thought this thread was about Che Guevara and not Bush/CIA. I have no comments on those things as they are not appropriate here. I still believe that Che was a murderous thug and should not be emulated. People who like him only like his ideals and ignore his crimes. His "moral" socialist/communist ideals do not make him a moral person. The guy was nuts and is responsible for killing many and helping to establish a communist dictatorship. The world is better without Che, now we need to learn from history and not emulate such wickedness.
 

Hatuey

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I thought this thread was about Che Guevara and not Bush/CIA. I have no comments on those things as they are not appropriate here. I still believe that Che was a murderous thug and should not be emulated. People who like him only like his ideals and ignore his crimes. His "moral" socialist/communist ideals do not make him a moral person. The guy was nuts and is responsible for killing many and helping to establish a communist dictatorship. The world is better without Che, now we need to learn from history and not emulate such wickedness.

.....and yet because of that dictatorship 11 million Cubans have free health care, where before a very small minority could afford more than the clothes on their back, the Cuban literacy rate is practically unmatched in Latin America and Cuba is one of the world's biggest producers of doctors per capita in the world. Not to mention the amount of athletic and professional talent which comes out of the country. They had complete equal rights for men, women blacks and whites by 1960. They also were the first country in Latin America to provide food for its entire population regardless of their status as part of a social programs. Life is a lot more complicated than American history books make it seem. Can you name similar accomplishments by any other dictatorships?
 
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ReverendHellh0und

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Reverend, you troll, spam, flame, and make really stupid posts but for some reason you're one of my favorite posters on the forum. I think it has to do with your lack of seriousness regarding most of the issues discussed here; everyone else always seems so uptight. Even though your political views are completely stupid, keep it up. :)






:lamo



Thanks..... I think.... :pimpdaddy:



:mrgreen:
 
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Hatuey said:
.....and yet because of that dictatorship 11 million Cubans have free health care, where before a very small minority could afford more than the clothes on their back, the Cuban literacy rate is practically unmatched in Latin America and Cuba is one of the world's biggest producers of doctors per capita in the world. Not to mention the amount of athletic and professional talent which comes out of the country. They had complete equal rights for men, women blacks and whites by 1960. They also were the first country in Latin America to provide food for its entire population regardless of their status as part of a social programs. Life is a lot more complicated than American history books make it seem. Can you name similar accomplishments by any other dictatorships?

The most interesting part about this thread is that it shows just how selectively ignorant the "anti-Castro" bloc really are. I mean whenever any of them attempted to argue against the Cuban government on an economic ground they got trounced because of how ignorant they were about the whole thing (see phattonez's posts and my responses to them, for example). Then, when their silly claims about the Cuban economy are disproved they have nothing to rely on except "Che killed people at La Cabaña!".

It's all silly, really.
 

VanceMack

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.....and yet because of that dictatorship 11 million Cubans have free health care, where before a very small minority could afford more than the clothes on their back, the Cuban literacy rate is practically unmatched in Latin America and Cuba is one of the world's biggest producers of doctors per capita in the world. Not to mention the amount of athletic and professional talent which comes out of the country. They had complete equal rights for men, women blacks and whites by 1960. They also were the first country in Latin America to provide food for its entire population regardless of their status as part of a social programs. Life is a lot more complicated than American history books make it seem. Can you name similar accomplishments by any other dictatorships?

There is a world of difference betweent eh health care for the wealthy in Cuba and the tourists...

kubaa463.jpg


PHOTO6R.jpg


HOSPITALSIQUIATRICO827A.JPG


Oh...I'm sure there are OTHER reasons for so many of them building boats out of cars and bathtubs to try to escape their socialist Utopia...
 

Commoncents

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I never said these wouldnt suffice, just show me good supported information.

...But you have with your dismissals of them. Once again,the subjective caveat is included to make sure my next attempt is unacceptable. I posted a piece you claimed was opinion,despite the fact specfic incidents were given. Wasnt 'good' enough,so I supported what he said with a variety of others saying more or less the same thing ,including eyewitness testimonials,historians,biographers,etc and now you want support of the support? Id be interested to see what you posess that can be classified as 'good' supported info making Che a 'hero' so I know what hoops I must jump thru.
 

VanceMack

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More pics of the unsanitized Cuba...you know...the ones people risk their lives to escape from....

CHILDRENHOSPITALr.JPG


Destruc0710P.jpg


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNhgym2bMtA&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Cuba, Hospitales ( Hijas de Galicia, Luyanó)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8T4SinsfWQ&feature=related"]YouTube- Patients in Hospital for Cubans part 2[/ame]

Two different worlds...One where the rich do pretty well...and the poor risk their lives to escape from.
 
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VanceMack said:
Oh...I'm sure there are OTHER reasons for so many of them building boats out of cars and bathtubs to try to escape their socialist Utopia...

Already covered.

Two different worlds...One where the rich do pretty well...and the poor risk their lives to escape from.

Lulz, sorry, photos don't prove anything. The statistical evidence speaks for itself.

EDIT: Also, that site where you got those photos from is hilariously one-sided and full of false information. In other words, your argument is nonexistent.

Infant Mortality Rate: 5.82 deaths/1,000 live births (182nd place out of 224 countries - Note that being lower on the list is good (224 is the lowest rate)). Compare this to the US's 6.22 and 180th place. In other words, the infant mortality rate in Cuba is lower than in the US!

Life Expectancy at Birth: 77.45 years - 55th place (this one being higher is good)
 
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VanceMack

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Already covered.



Lulz, sorry, photos don't prove anything. The statistical evidence speaks for itself.

EDIT: Also, that site where you got those photos from is hilariously one-sided and full of false information. In other words, your argument is nonexistent.

Infant Mortality Rate: 5.82 deaths/1,000 live births (182nd place out of 224 countries - Note that being lower on the list is good (224 is the lowest rate)). Compare this to the US's 6.22 and 180th place. In other words, the infant mortality rate in Cuba is lower than in the US!

And YOUR positions are balanced and unbiased...:doh

You are at least consistent and ALWAYS good for a laugh.
 
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VanceMack said:
And YOUR positions are balanced and unbiased...

I pulled those statistics from the CIA World Factbook, and hell, if their hospitals actually looked like what you claim they do (which they don't), then I'd say that the US has a lot to learn from a country that can give such a high level of care to its citizens with such little means. In other words, your attempts at smearing the Cuban health care system are actually supporting my position! :lol:

Oh, and that was a stupid statement because "positions" are never balanced or unbiased; that is what makes them "positions".

Proceed to troll if you wish, but you've already been exposed.
 

VanceMack

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Now why would Cuba distort facts about birth rates...

"The effect of the economic collapse on Cuba's infant mortality rate was softened by a decrease in the birth rate because of poverty, an exponential increase in the number of transvaginal aspirations to end early-stage pregnancies (which are not recorded as abortions in Cuba), the availability of contraceptives supplied by the United Nations Population Fund, and quasi-exclusive health care for infants and expectant mothers. The 60% increase in the direct maternal mortality rate (a measure of maternal deaths resulting from obstetric complications of the pregnant state) and the 43% increase in the total maternal mortality rate during this period in Cuba reflect the collapse of the health care system for adults.

In its population statistics, the Cuban government has hidden for the past 49 years the fact that 2 million Cubans have emigrated or have died as a result of political executions, wars fought overseas, unsafe emigration and poor health care for adults (particularly for the elderly). It is therefore uncertain whether the all-cause mortality rate (with age adjustment done using questionable data from the 1981 Cuban National Census) and the rates of death from diabetes mellitus and cardiovascular disease cited by Franco and colleagues have in fact declined as much as they claimed in parallel with the populationwide weight loss.1,2 Cubans have survived for almost 5 decades on a monthly diet of 6 pounds of refined sugar per person, and there has been a resultant increase in the prevalence of diabetes mellitus. The prevalence of other risk factors for cardiovascular disease, such as hypertension, alcoholism and stress, has also increased and the prevalence of smoking has remained constant."

Nah...Im SURE you are right...Cuba is a WONDERFUL place. You should GO there...live there.

No...really...you should. You would obviously be much happier living in this paradise.
 

Commoncents

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I almost feel sorry for the folks depicting Cuba as anything except the disgusting 4th world country an egomaniacal socialist and his right man has turned it into...almost.
 

VanceMack

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I almost feel sorry for the folks depicting Cuba as anything except the disgusting 4th world country an egomaniacal socialist and his right man has turned it into...almost.

I feel sorry for them too...I really truly wish they could go there...live there...stay there. For their own sake...because OBVIOUSLY life is so much better there. Photographic and video evidence, eyewitness accounts, hundreds of thousands escaping there...but...OBVIOUSLY it is a better place to live...happy...desirable...so...i feel for them...hope for their happiness...and hope some day they live there...not in the rich parts of Havana, but amongst the common folk...
 
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VanceMack said:
Now why would Cuba distort facts about birth rates...

Once again, these figures were from the CIA World Factbook and not from the Cuban government. In other words, the facts that I have posted have been endorsed by the CIA as acceptable.

CIA World Factbook FAQ said:
What is The World Factbook’s source for a specific subject field?

The Factbook staff uses many different sources to publish what we judge are the most reliable and consistent data for any particular category.

Oh, and you didn't quote your 'source'.

Nah...Im SURE you are right...Cuba is a WONDERFUL place. You should GO there...live there.

No...really...you should. You would obviously be much happier living in this paradise.

"This is 'MURRRKA, and if you don't like it you can GEEEEET OUT!" :lol:

Please keep trolling; it's entertaining.
 
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Ikari

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Yeah, Che actually had conviction and a sense of morality.

That's ****ed up. Che didn't have a sense of morality unless you define morality as murderous intent of all those around him. You can't even compare American presidents to communist revolutionaries who did nothing but create strife, turmoil, and murder. Not in any intellectually honest manner that is.
 
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