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Che Guevara.. Hero or Menace?

That is an opinion piece and none of the assertions that the author makes are backed up in any way. It's a rant.

lol...which of the accusations do find the most difficult to beleive?

List the gripes with this 'opinion' piece and a list of acceptable sources and Ill see what I can find.

This is a common tactic I find. Lets get things sorted out first then Ill do the work youre afraid to do. I guarantee you Che is not a hard man to prove a villain.
 
lol...which of the accusations do find the most difficult to beleive?
It's not that, the work you posted is an opinion piece, not a reviewed or accepted article. It contains the opinion of the author and as such does not need to be supported by evidence.

List the gripes with this 'opinion' piece and a list of acceptable sources and Ill see what I can find.
-Under his orders, thousands crumpled.

-At everything else Che Guevara failed abysmally, even comically.

-Two years later, during his Bolivian “guerrilla” campaign, Che split his forces, whereupon they got hopelessly lost and bumbled around, half-starved, half-clothed and half-shod, without any contact with each other for six months before being wiped out. They didn’t even have World War II vintage walkie-talkies to communicate and seemed incapable of applying a compass reading to a map. They spent much of the time walking in circles and were usually within a mile of each other. During this blundering, they often engaged in ferocious firefights against each other.

-(This is an unsourced quote attributed to Guevara) “The U.S. is the great enemy of mankind!” raved Guevara in 1961. “Against those hyenas there is no option but extermination. We will bring the war to the imperialist enemies’ very home, to his places of work and recreation. The imperialist enemy must feel like a hunted animal wherever he moves. Thus, we’ll destroy him! We must keep our hatred against them [the U.S.] alive and fan it to paroxysms!”

-On Nov. 17, 1962, J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI discovered that Che Guevara’s bombast had substance. They infiltrated and cracked a plot by Cuban agents that targeted Macy’s, Gimbel’s, Bloomingdale’s and Manhattan’s Grand Central Terminal with a dozen incendiary devices and 500 kilos of TNT. The holocaust was set to go off the following week, the day after Thanksgiving. Che Guevara was the head of Cuba’s “Foreign Liberation Department” at the time.

-(Yet more unsourced quotes) A month earlier (during what came to be known as the Cuban Missile Crisis), Fidel Castro and Che Guevara had salivated over the prospect of a much more satisfying holocaust. “If the nuclear missiles had remained, we would have fired them against the heart of the U.S., including New York City,” boasted Guevara in November 1962. “The victory of socialism is well worth millions of atomic victims.” Che thought he was speaking “off-the-record” to Sam Russell of Britain’s Daily Worker at the time.

This is ridiculous, this is a hack piece of writing by someone who cant even be bothered to look up NEW BS rumors to recycle.

This is a common tactic I find. Lets get things sorted out first then Ill do the work youre afraid to do. I guarantee you Che is not a hard man to prove a villain.
Instead of bitching about it you could just NOT post crappy sources, hmmm?
 
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It's not that, the work you posted is an opinion piece, not a reviewed or accepted article. It contains the opinion of the author and as such does not need to be supported by evidence.


EDITING (Hit Enter too soon)

Instead of bitching about it you could just NOT post crappy sources, hmmm?

Crappy is a relative term.

The 'opinion' piece listed specific allegations and examples of Che's 'revolutionary leadership'.You either believe these anecdotes or you dont. Now youre asking for secondary sources because you think this one is 'crappy'. Dismissing it as opinion w/o noting the actual accusations included within makes me think you did not even read it. The guy didnt just say I thinks Ches a bad guy,so there. Its filled with quotes from Che and folks who were there,folks involved in 1960 era Cuban intelligence.....you should actually read it ,then get back to me.

I bitch because I dont want to waste my time with folks who will summarily brush off things because they refuse to accept them. When you list acceptable sources you to some degree corner yourself,which is why most time folks wont lock themselves in.
 
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The 'opinion' piece listed specific allegations and examples of Che's 'revolutionary leadership'.You either believe these anecdotes or you dont.
Anecdotal evidence from someone whose mind is made up and who didnt experience or apparently research the subject at all is worthless.

Now youre asking for secondary sources because you think this one is 'crappy'.
That's putting it mildly

Dismissing it as opinion w/o noting the actual accusations included within makes me think you did not even read it. The guy didnt just say I thinks Ches a bad guy,so there. Its filled with quotes from Che and folks who were there,folks involved in 1960 era Cuban intelligence.....you should actually read it ,then get back to me.
UNSOURCED quotes.

I bitch because I dont want to waste my time with folks who will summarily brush off things because they refuse to accept them.
Yet you read and accept stuff like what you posted.

When you list acceptable sources you to some degree corner yourself,which is why most time folks wont lock themselves in.
Acceptable sources for what?
 
Document written by José Vilasuso, a lawyer who worked under "Ché" in the preparation of indictments that often resulted in the death sentence during the first months of the Communist government in 1959

In January of 1959 I worked under the well known leader of the Purging Commission, Ciro Redondo Column, fortress of La Cabaña. I was a recent Law School graduate and had the enthusiasm of one who witnesses his own generation assume power.

I was part of the team assembling the details of the cases against those accused of committing crimes during the previous government, such as murder, embezzlement, torture, betrayal, etc. Through my desk passed the files of accused men such as Commander Alberto Boix Coma and the journalist Otto Meruelo. Most of the indicted were military of low ranks, or politicians of no renown or charisma. On their side, the witnesses were ardent youth, vengeful, utopian, or simply malicious, anxious to earn revolutionary honors. I remember a Lieutenant Llivre, with an eastern-Cuba accent who would instigate us with “We must set up the show, we must bring real revolutionary witnesses who can shout ‘justice!, justice!, firing squad!, esbirros*!. This is what moves people.” The commissioner of the Marianao section once exhorted us: “We have to get all of these heads. All of them”

At the beginning, the Tribunals were composed of civilian and military lawyers, under the direction of Captain Mike Duque de Estrada and Lieutenants Sotolongo and Rivero (who later went crazy), and the prosecutors Tony Suarez de la Fuente (Pelayito) also known as “Pool o’blood” (Charco de Sangre) among others. Then, most of us quit given the excesses. Later, others without any legal training occupied our positions.

There were relatives of victims of the previous regime who were put in charge of judging the accused.

The first case on which I worked was that of Ariel Lima, a former revolutionary who had gone to the government side. His fate was sealed. He was dressed in prison uniform. I saw him handcuffed with his teeth chattering. According to the Law of the Guerrillas the facts were judged without any consideration to general juridical principles. The right of Habeas Corpus had been suspended.

The statements of the investigating officer constituted irrefutable proof of wrongdoing. The defense lawyer simply admitted the accusations and requested the generosity of the government in order to reduce the sentence. In those days, Guevara was visible in his black beret, cigar in mouth. Cantinflas-like face and bandaged arm in sling. He was extremely thin and his slow and cold tone demonstrated his “posse” of “gray eminence” of the Revolution and total adherence to Marxist theory. Many people congregated in his office and engaged in lively discussions about the revolutionary process. However, his conversation used to be full of irony, he never showed any alteration in temperament or paid any attention to different opinions He reprimanded in private more than one colleague; in public, he chastised us all: “Don’t delay these trials. This is a revolution, the proofs are secondary. We have to proceed by conviction. They are a gang of criminals and murderers. Besides, remember that there is an Appeals Tribunals”

This Appeals Tribunal never decided in favor of the appeal. It simply confirmed the sentences. It was presided by Commander Ernesto Guevara Serna.

The executions took place in the early morning hours. Once sentence was passed, the relatives and friends exploded in horrible cries, supplications of pity for their children, their husbands, etc, Desperation and terror spread throughout the room. Several women had to be taken out by force. The next step was “goodbye” a room where they embraced for the last time, united by pain. Those embraces of minutes looked like the prelude of a long trip. Once alone, there were some men who resisted until the time of the discharge of the guns. Others went shaking, dejected, overwhelmed. One policeman, as a last wish wanted permission to urinate. Many learned only that day what a priest was. More than one died shouting :”I am innocent” A brave captain commanded his own execution.

To witness such a butchery was a trauma that will accompany me to my grave and it is my mission to let this be known. During those hours the walls of that medieval castle received the echoes of the rhythmic footstep of the squad, the clicking of the rifles, the command voices, the resounding of the shots, the sorry howling of the dying and the shouting of officers and guards upon their final shots. The macabre silence when everything was consummated.,

In front of the wall, full of holes by the bullets, tied to posts, the agonizing corpses remained, soaked in blood and paralyzed in indescribable positions, spastic hands, painful expressions of shock, unhinged jaws, a hole where an eye used to be before. Some of the bodies had the skulls destroyed and exposed brains due to the last shot.

Executions took place from Monday to Saturday, and each day about one to seven prisoners were executed, sometimes more. Death sentence cases had a blanket authorization of Fidel, Raul and Ché, and were decided by the Tribunal or by the Communist Party. Each member of the firing squad got fifteen pesos per execution. The officers got twenty five. In Oriente province summary sentences were profusely applied, but I don’t have reliable figures. Nevertheless, in La Cabaña, until June of 1959, about six hundred prisoners were executed, plus and indefinite number of prison sentences… all this after a revolutionary process in which about four thousand people lost their lives on both sides.**

(Witness) Executions at La Cabaña fortress

A sad look came over him, and he said, "Years ago, after we'd done the interview, Papa invited me down again to Cuba." George had done a justifiably famous interview with Ernest Hemingway for the magazine, and usually referred to him as "Papa", as Hemingway had encouraged him to do.

"It was right after the revolution," George continued. One afternoon, Hemingway told him, "There's something you should see." The nature of the expedition was a mystery; Hemingway made a shaker of drinks, daiquiris or whatever. They got in the car with a few others and drove some way out of town. They got out, set up chairs and took out the drinks, as if they were going to watch the sunset. Soon, a truck arrived. This, explained George, was what they'd been waiting for. It came, as Hemingway knew, the same time each day. It stopped and some men with guns got out of it. In the back were a couple of dozen others who were tied up. Prisoners.

The men with guns hustled the others out of the back of the truck, and lined them up. Then they shot them. They put the bodies back into the truck. I said to George something to the effect of "Oh my God."

Then I said, "I don't believe you." I'm not sure why I didn't.

George had a Forrest Gump-like ability to be on the spot where things happened, including, as I was to find years into knowing him, the moment when he was among those who, along with my uncle, leapt upon and disarmed Sirhan Sirhan after he had assassinated Bobby Kennedy at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.

What's more, though George loved to play the role of trickster, I never found him, when pressed, to be less than truthful.

He shook his head, and said, "James, I'm afraid so. And...well...so you see?"

"Did you ever write about this?"

"No."

"Why not?"

He looked uncomfortable and shrugged.

Shooting Script | Standpoint
 
Interview with Che

We can gain a strong flavour of what was at stake in that era from the words of one of the few foreign journalists to have been in Cuba at the time of Kennedy’s greatest test, the missile crisis. Sam Lesser, who wrote under the name Sam Russell for the British Communist party newspaper, the Daily Worker (which in 1966 was relaunched as the Morning Star), was sent to Havana a few weeks after the crisis in late October and early November 1962 where he interviewed Che Guevara, then industry minister but the key figure in negotiating the Soviet deployment of missiles on the island. Speaking in an interview with the BBC’s Andrew Whitehead on 13 July 1992, extracts from which were broadcast by the World Service, the journalist revealed how strongly the Cuban people, and Guevara himself, had felt about the US in that period:

“I remember attending a Russian Revolution anniversary meeting which was held at the time - it must have been November the 6th - and at this meeting [the Soviet statesman Anastas] Mikoyan spoke and there were chants, people chanting in a sort of cha cha cha rhythm as the Cubans used to do, probably still do, meaning ‘Fidel Khrushchev we are together’, but outside in the streets if people had been able to get hold of Khrushchev they would have strung him from the nearest lamppost … because of this agreement with Kennedy withdrawing them [the missiles].”[2]

Lesser revealed how he had accompanied the Cuban journalist and writer Carlos Franqui, then editor of the newspaper Revolución, into a room listening into the conversations between the commanders of Soviet and American ships after the deal between Kennedy and Khrushchev as Russian ships taking the rockets out of Cuba reached international waters.

“We could hear the Soviet and American commanders talking to each other in clear - not in code - in English, and the American commander singing out the number, because the rocket was marked, and as the tarpaulin was removed he would shout out, or the lookout man would shout out, the number and it would be repeated, and I remember Carlos Franqui turning round and spitting on the floor and saying ‘Disgusting, this is striptease on the high seas’, and the Cubans were absolutely furious with this.”

It is interesting to note that Franqui eventually broke with the regime and left Cuba, growing increasingly critical of the Soviet Union but also of repression under Castro. The historian John Lee Anderson writes that both Fidel and Che had been incandescent with rage at what they saw as a betrayal by Khrushchev, and Mikoyan had been dispatched to Havana to patch things up. What Lesser had undoubtedly heard in the streets had been Cubans chanting: “¡Nikita, mariquita, lo que se da no se quita!“ - “Nikita, you little queer, what you give, you don’t take away!” [3]

In his interview, Lesser also gave a fascinating insight into the determined character of Guevara, whom he talked with for five hours.[4] The great icon of the Cuban Revolution both impressed the journalist with his keen intelligence and the way he overcame his severe asthma, yet exasperated him with his position on the Soviet missiles. Lesser recounted:

“A man of obviously great intelligence, although I thought he was crackers at the time … he went into great detail about the rockets and said that if the rockets had remained under our control – no, not remained, if the rockets had been under control, because they had never been under their [Cuban] control of course - if the rockets had been under our control, and if the Americans had moved a little finger, and he lifted up his hand and waggled his little finger, we would have fired every one off on to New York and Washington, Ohio and Pittsburgh and rattled off a number of other American towns. And I thought to myself ‘Well thank Christ that they weren’t under your control’…”

Knot and noose at The Latin American Review of Books
 
Javier Arzuaga, the Basque chaplain who gave comfort to those sentenced to die and personally witnessed dozens of executions, spoke to me recently from his home in Puerto Rico. A former Catholic priest, now seventy-five, who describes himself as "closer to Leonardo Boff and Liberation Theology than to the former Cardinal Ratzinger," he recalls that "there were about eight hundred prisoners in a space fit for no more than three hundred: former Batista military and police personnel, some journalists, a few businessmen and merchants. The revolutionary tribunal was made of militiamen. Che Guevara presided over the appellate court. He never overturned a sentence. I would visit those on death row at the galera de la muerte. A rumor went around that I hypnotized prisoners because many remained calm, so Che ordered that I be present at the executions. After I left in May, they executed many more, but I personally witnessed fifty-five executions. There was an American, Herman Marks, apparently a former convict. We called him "the butcher" because he enjoyed giving the order to shoot. I pleaded many times with Che on behalf of prisoners. I remember especially the case of Ariel Lima, a young boy. Che did not budge. Nor did Fidel, whom I visited. I became so traumatized that at the end of May 1959 I was ordered to leave the parish of Casa Blanca, where La Cabaña was located and where I had held Mass for three years. I went to Mexico for treatment. The day I left, Che told me we had both tried to bring one another to each other's side and had failed. His last words were: "When we take our masks off, we will be enemies."

The great revolutionary had a chance to put into practice his economic vision--his idea of social justice--as head of the National Bank of Cuba and of the Department of Industry of the National Institute of Agrarian Reform at the end of 1959, and, starting in early 1961, as minister of industry. The period in which Guevara was in charge of most of the Cuban economy saw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing--all this in what had been one of Latin America's four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship.

His stint as head of the National Bank, during which he printed bills signed "Che," has been summarized by his deputy, Ernesto Betancourt: "[He] was ignorant of the most elementary economic principles." Guevara's powers of perception regarding the world economy were famously expressed in 1961, at a hemispheric conference in Uruguay, where he predicted a 10 percent rate of growth for Cuba "without the slightest fear," and, by 1980, a per capita income greater than that of "the U.S. today." In fact, by 1997, the thirtieth anniversary of his death, Cubans were dieting on a ration of five pounds of rice and one pound of beans per month; four ounces of meat twice a year; four ounces of soybean paste per week; and four eggs per month.

Che Guevara: The Killing Machine | www.vcrisis.com
 
Bush had a lot more class when signing death warrants for prisoners during his reign as governor of the great state of texas.

Much less messy and very dignified. Maybe that will earn bush a cooler place in hell. At least Obama never signed a death warrant. I would not want that hanging over my head but Of course that's because I am an extreme centrist.
 
Ill assume I dont need a link to cite his shortcomings in the Congo as his diary itself documented the epic failure.

I guess you could just read his book.
 
Bush had a lot more class when signing death warrants for prisoners during his reign as governor of the great state of texas.

Much less messy and very dignified. Maybe that will earn bush a cooler place in hell. At least Obama never signed a death warrant. I would not want that hanging over my head but Of course that's because I am an extreme centrist.

At least they got a trial and waaaay too many appeals.

Obama signed many death warrants.....everytime you hear about a drone killing someone in Pak.....Obamas rubber stamp right on it.

This is a about mass murderer and epic failure Che Guevara tho....
 
At least they got a trial and waaaay too many appeals.

Obama signed many death warrants.....everytime you hear about a drone killing someone in Pak.....Obamas rubber stamp right on it.

This is a about mass murderer and epic failure Che Guevara tho....

Well, then I guess you owe Obama thanks for smiting your enemies.:roll:
 
I'm seeing very little that is substantiated or that confirms any of the claims your opinion piece made.

The claims that the eyewitnesses made are too general to be investigated and in no way indict Guevara specifically. We know the revolution went somewhat off the rails in the end and that Fidel didnt have a handle on things as he should have.

Other claims made in the articles are physically impossible
"Cubans were dieting on a ration of five pounds of rice and one pound of beans per month; four ounces of meat twice a year; four ounces of soybean paste per week; and four eggs per month."
That is a physically impossible diet. No one can survive for any extended period of time on this. I want to see some hard numerical proof that this is the case in Cuba.

A great deal of resource shortfall can be attributed to the utterly pointless economic blockade that STILL weighs Cuba down to this day.

The period in which Guevara was in charge of most of the Cuban economy saw the near-collapse of sugar production, the failure of industrialization, and the introduction of rationing--all this in what had been one of Latin America's four most economically successful countries since before the Batista dictatorship.
NONE of these claims are substantiated or sourced.
 
I'm seeing very little that is substantiated or that confirms any of the claims your opinion piece made.

The claims that the eyewitnesses made are too general to be investigated and in no way indict Guevara specifically. We know the revolution went somewhat off the rails in the end and that Fidel didnt have a handle on things as he should have.

Other claims made in the articles are physically impossible
"Cubans were dieting on a ration of five pounds of rice and one pound of beans per month; four ounces of meat twice a year; four ounces of soybean paste per week; and four eggs per month."
That is a physically impossible diet. No one can survive for any extended period of time on this. I want to see some hard numerical proof that this is the case in Cuba.

A great deal of resource shortfall can be attributed to the utterly pointless economic blockade that STILL weighs Cuba down to this day.

NONE of these claims are substantiated or sourced.

And they are not backed up by any kind of rule of law.
 
I'm seeing very little that is substantiated or that confirms any of the claims your opinion piece made.

The claims that the eyewitnesses made are too general to be investigated and in no way indict Guevara specifically. We know the revolution went somewhat off the rails in the end and that Fidel didnt have a handle on things as he should have.

Other claims made in the articles are physically impossible
"Cubans were dieting on a ration of five pounds of rice and one pound of beans per month; four ounces of meat twice a year; four ounces of soybean paste per week; and four eggs per month."
That is a physically impossible diet. No one can survive for any extended period of time on this. I want to see some hard numerical proof that this is the case in Cuba.

A great deal of resource shortfall can be attributed to the utterly pointless economic blockade that STILL weighs Cuba down to this day.

NONE of these claims are substantiated or sourced.

This is exactly what Im talking about. Thanks for proving my point.

Guevara was personally in charge of the prison,in charge of the appellate,in charge of the finance ministry,in charge of the industial ministry,in charge of the congo adventure,this is beyond refute...yet somehow you cannot 'indict' him as the source specifically for the various issues.
 
This is exactly what Im talking about. Thanks for proving my point.

Guevara was personally in charge of the prison,in charge of the appellate,in charge of the finance ministry,in charge of the industial ministry,in charge of the congo adventure,this is beyond refute...yet somehow you cannot 'indict' him as the source specifically for the various issues.

I agree. That's why I think Bush should be charged as a war criminal.
 
Bush had a lot more class when signing death warrants for prisoners during his reign as governor of the great state of texas.

Much less messy and very dignified. Maybe that will earn bush a cooler place in hell. At least Obama never signed a death warrant. I would not want that hanging over my head but Of course that's because I am an extreme centrist.

So you're all for killing innocent babies in the womb but not men who rape and murder a four year-old girl and have it coming to them. What's new in the wacky world of the loony left?
 
So you're all for killing innocent babies in the womb but not men who rape and murder a four year-old girl and have it coming to them. What's new in the wacky world of the loony left?
:confused:
Did I ever say I was pro choice? I am anti death penalty, though. I would rather see baby killers tortured for the rest of their lives. Why put them out of their misery so easy?
 
Moderator's Warning:
This thread is neither about Obama, nor Bush. Stay on topic.
 
wow, there are double the references to bush(18) than there is to hitler(7), i think godwins law needs a new clause
 
wow, there are double the references to bush(18) than there is to hitler(7), i think godwins law needs a new clause
If that was the case, the President would need to hire all new speechwriters.
 
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